You (might) Have to Speak English

[The Stationmaster]

According to an article in 'The Daily Telegraph' the EU are saying there is a need for a common language to be used by Drivers (and presiumably other operating staff?) on trains running across the borders between EU countries.  Apparently international open access has thrown up a number of problems so the present sysem is being deemed to be inadequate. 

 

It's not clear if this has actually come from the UIC  and no doubt in any case to the DT that would be no different from the EU.  The preseent - very long established - system is that the language used will be that of the country in which a train is running and of course that country's Rules & Regulations etc also apply to any train on its territory and they are written in its language (although ETCS could nullify some of that).  So the whole question could be a lot wider than simply saying there has to be a 'common language'

 

However the DT, and a British politician it asked for comments, seem to be positively purring because the 'common  language' currently being proposed is - guess what? -  English.  No doubt this will suit the Scandinavian countries (who on their past form might well have proposed it anyway?) but it seemingly isn't going down all that well elsewhere.

[Mike_Walker]

English is the standard in the air transport industry so it makes sense to me.  BTW, this was in the tabloid everyone likes to hate days ago!

[Bucoops]

Presumably to make it universally understood you have to speak slowly and really loudly?

[e30ftw]

so only the french and the welsh will be upset by this.😄

[keefer]

Esperanto becomes useful at last?😁

Can just imagine a new wave of strike action across France when the unions start complaining about their members 'being forced' to speak English. (Tongue only half in cheek)

Edited May 25, 2023 by keefer

[big jim]

Good moaning sognoller , diz izz dur driver en win alpha tree far pissing over the burder into Fronce  

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by big jim

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

According to an article in 'The Daily Telegraph' the EU are saying there is a need for a common language to be used by Drivers (and presiumably other operating staff?) on trains running across the borders between EU countries.

English already seems to be the lingua franca of the EU, at least among diplomats and politicians and in most businesses, so it would already seem to the language of choice where one wishes to escape the inconvenience and cost of professional translaters.  I long ago stopped asking Europeans "Do you speak English?" (even in their own languages) because they tend to look offended, as though one had asked if they could read and write.  I find it embarassing that we as a nation collectively have an abysmal level of competence in foreign languages, my own weakness included, especially as many of those I encountered when working on the Continent even spoke better English than some of my compatriots!

 

Why is this the case, given that the historic language of the clergy was Latin and the traditional language of diplomacy was French ?  Is it the influence of what passes for English in the Land of the Free?   I suspect foreigners find our (spoken) language easier to learn that most other European languages.  Our written language is a different matter as unlike other languages, we lack phonetic consistency however.  English itself evolved as a common language for trade among the remaining local tribes after the ancient Britons had been invaded by Romans, Normans, Vikings, Angles and Saxons etc.  Our ancestors simplified the imported words by dropping many of the grammatical complications of irregular verbs, complex declensions and conjugations, adjectives having to agree by case/gender on inanimate objects, or verbs that take the accusative, genitive or dative case. 

 

2 hours ago, keefer said:

Esperanto becomes useful at last?😁

 

 

Anaso mortinta!

 

Esperanto was banned by the French Government in the 1920s, and in the 1930s Russia arrested the leaders of the Esperanto movement while Hitler denounced it as a tool for Jewish propanganda.

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

.... we as a nation collectively have an abysmal level of competence in foreign languages, ............... Hitler denounced it as a tool for Jewish propanganda.

Hitler denounced EVERYTHING as a tool for Jewish propaganda !

 

The problem for native English speakers is WHAT foreign language should we learn ? ........... obviously we really ought to speak fluently in every country we visit as their native speakers speak fluently in our language - so in approximate chronological order, I ought to speak Welsh, French, Dutch, German, Polish, Czech, Gaelic, Mandarin, Spanish, Afrikaans, Greek, Bengali, Hindi, Korean, Burmese, Italian, Inuit ( etc.) ............. malheureusement, ce n’est pas possible !

[Reorte]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Why is this the case, given that the historic language of the clergy was Latin and the traditional language of diplomacy was French ?  Is it the influence of what passes for English in the Land of the Free? 

Probably a legacy of us barging in to every part of the world we could and claiming it's ours. The rise of the USA in the 20th century has helped keep it there.

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's not clear if this has actually come from the UIC  

Which, if true, then presumably becomes the IUR :-)

[Michael Hodgson]

8 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

The problem for native English speakers is WHAT foreign language should we learn ?

I don't mind foreigners speaking a foreign language. 

I just wish they'd speak the same foreign language.

[spamcan61]

46 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

English already seems to be the lingua franca of the EU, at least among diplomats and politicians and in most businesses, so it would already seem to the language of choice where one wishes to escape the inconvenience and cost of professional translaters.  I long ago stopped asking Europeans "Do you speak English?" (even in their own languages) because they tend to look offended, as though one had asked if they could read and write. 

 

Same here, having lived+worked in both Finland and Sweden for a few months each I gave up asking the question. Unfortunately the one time I really needed help - in Stockholm trying to find a railway station after the T-Bana (tube network) had stopped working due to a computer error - the one Swede I could find wandering around didn't speak English. Resorting to gestures and the odd word of Swedish got me the info. I needed.

[jjb1970]

I am very friendly with an Argentine diplomat who is splendid at throwing tantrums if simultaneous translation is not available in all six UN languages at meetings. Apparently it excludes the world if communication is in English, despite the fact that her English is impeccable and shames most native speakers. I like her though as she is purposefully winding people up and doesn't take herself too seriously. I asked her about all those countries of the world who don't use one of the six official languages (admittedly these tend to be minor places no normal person has heard of, like Japan, Korea, India, Indonesia, Germany, Italy, Turkiye and such like) and her very reasonable answer was that they can learn Spanish.

 

A French ambassador on the other hand takes it seriously and really is a pompous so and so. Her assistant is the exact opposite, a consummate professional and absolute gentleman whose main job seems to be damage limitation for his boss. I once almost pushed her over the edge by agreeing with her that the language situation was intolerable. Therefore the six UN languages should be brought up to date to reflect global usage, with French being dumped in favour of Malay/Indonesian and Hindi, she went properly bonkers, it was classic 🤣

 

The one I admire is a Russian chap, he speaks in Russian while listening to the English simultaneous translation and then takes the translates to task if they don't get it right. To do that while developing complex arguments takes a lot of skill. His English is also better than most native speakers.

[lmsforever]

At last common sense from Europe they have found that our language is the best for talking to each other no more probs for us when we go abroad , rule Brittania  !!!!!!   

[Michael Hodgson]

3 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

At last common sense from Europe they have found that our language is the best for talking to each other no more probs for us when we go abroad

... apart from our not being part of Europe any more!

 

25 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Same here, having lived+worked in both Finland and Sweden for a few months each I gave up asking the question. Unfortunately the one time I really needed help - in Stockholm trying to find a railway station after the T-Bana (tube network) had stopped working due to a computer error - the one Swede I could find wandering around didn't speak English. Resorting to gestures and the odd word of Swedish got me the info. I needed.

 

My parents lived in Kiruna for 3 years in the 1980s so I picked up a few basics in Swedish, but Finnish is a bit more difficult.

The only time I have ever encountered a Customs official who didn't speak English was a Finn at Kilpisjärvi on the Norwegian/Finnish border.  He had Swedish, Norwegian, Russian and Sami of course, but we had to settle on German; I found that was reasonably common in northern Finland.

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

... apart from our not being part of Europe any more!

 

 

My parents lived in Kiruna for 3 years in the 1980s so I picked up a few basics in Swedish, but Finnish is a bit more difficult.

 

Yeah my schoolboy French and German helped quite a bit with Swedish nouns and verbs, but Finnish is pretty much unguessable; I worked for Nokia for 15+ years so worked with a lot of Finns, but their ad hoc Finnish language tutorials tended to stop once we'd got beyond swearing and ordering beer ;-)

 

Whilst it can get you into a lot of trouble lol I found I could get away with pretending to be a native in Stockholm just by guessing the context of a conversation and smiling and/or nodding as appropriate. Near my lodgings in Stockholm was a co-op where I used to buy bottled Spitfire and Danish pastries*, it took the gorgeous Swedish girl on the checkout a couple of months to realise I was English .

 

* this one:-

 

https://goo.gl/maps/PgtkP699KgAhbYX47

[Bucoops]

When we went on a school trip to Prague, I had a crack at learning some phrases to at least try and not be a typical British tourist.

 

First bar we were in: "Un pivo, prosim"

"Eh?"

"Un pivo, prosim"

"Eh?"

 

We had been told that most of the locals spoke Russian and German (but generally hated Russians!).

"Ein bier, bitte"

"Eh?"

 

I gave up at this point. "Please could I have a beer?"

"Of course, Sir!"

 

Still don't know if I really was that useless at languages or he was just on a wind up. I suspect the latter 😅

[Mike Bellamy]

18 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

The one I admire is a Russian chap, he speaks in Russian while listening to the English simultaneous translation and then takes the translates to task if they don't get it right. To do that while developing complex arguments takes a lot of skill. His English is also better than most native speakers.

 

About 20 years ago, the University of Derby had a partnership with a college in Israel (along with many other UK universities). Originally students were taught following the Derby syllabus but in Hebrew. The local universities and colleges (who were finding their student numbers dropping) complained that a programme originating in the UK should be taught in English as it was the UK institution that would be issuing the graduation certificate and employers would therefore expect the graduate to have a good command of English. The Ministry of Education was in partial agreement and made it a requirement that 30% of the tuition should be by staff from the UK institution. Our staff were already going there to do 'guest' lectures in English and when these new rules came into force, the University sent about 30 staff out there for around 6 weeks to do intensive teaching across a number of study centres (at one time we were delivering at ten location). However close scrutiny of the rules showed that it wasn't actually a requirement to be taught in English and so the college there arranged for three of their staff to be transferred to Derby, they moved to the UK, were on our payroll and they taught by "Interactive Distance Learning" - an early version of programmes like Zoom. However many other overseas institutions were not prepared to make this investment and many of them closed their Israel partnerships.

 

There were always questions being raised about the quality of the teaching and the achievements of the students. Large numbers of assignments were independently translated and sent back to UK for marking and we also used Hebrew speaking External Examiners who were employed at other UK universities or were at universities in Israel. We then had to confirm the quality of the samples that had been translated. A Google search found me a translator who agreed to compare the original Hebrew with the English copy sent to UK. However much to the surprise of the Israeli staff, he said that every one of them was of a poor quality - further investigation found that he was a "technical" translator - the sort of person who would translate the operational manual of a jumbo jet where if you pressed the wrong button the plane would crash !!

 

We dispensed with his services as we needed someone from an academic background who could tell us if the student had been disadvantaged by the quality of the translation - did the text actually convey the correct meaning even if not every single word was 100% accurate. By coincidence we found him at a college about 25 miles away where I had gone to give them a talk about our work with partnerships. I made a light hearted comment about going to visit exciting places like Mansfield but also said I had been on several trips to Israel. He came to speak to me afterwards and it turned out that he was the son of a New York Rabbi who like many American Jews spent some time in Israel. He was at that time already married, but whilst there he met his soon to be second wife. He said he really was the "black sheep" of the family as not only had he got divorced, he had then married a miner's daughter from Clipstone" (one of the many local pits).

.

[keefer]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

apart from our not being part of Europe any more

Still in Europe, just not in the EU!

[Wheatley]

"Don't worry if you get stuck" said the lady lending us her gite in Brittany for a week, "the people in the pub are lovely and they speak English."

 

So off we go, Collins English/French dictionary in hand, to the pub to buy a phone card, as advertised by a sticker on their door. 

 

"Bonjour, parle vous Anglais?"

"Non"

Oh. Bad CSE French it is then. 

"Er, je voudrais achete le ... er ... (consults Collins)  telecarte s'il vous plait"

"(Incomprehensible French with shrugging)"

"Un telecarte"

"(As above)"

"Le carte ... (does actions) .. pour le telephone... (does actions) ...s'il vous plait"

"Ah ! Le Phonecard ! Why you not say monsieur !"

 

 

[Mike Bellamy]

Another tale from Israel about language and translation. I was there assisting at their Graduation Ceremony in a huge hall with several hundred graduates and a top table of invited dignitaries. There were about ten there from the UK and we all had headphones for the not quite simultaneous translation - when the head of the local college made a few jokes it was a few minutes later when we were told what he said and so had to try not to laugh out loud as by then he was on a more serious part of his speech. However when the Vice-Chancellor from Derby spoke he was speaking in English - he started by talking about the wonderful opportunities for students after graduation - in his particular case he had volunteered to work in a Kibbutz in Israel, which obviously got a round of applause, he had met his wife in Israel (more applause), his first daughter had been born in Israel (more applause) and then he continued his speech in fluent Hebrew !!  By now the audience was almost in uproar. We quickly put on our headphones to find that the translator had disappeared - she returned soon after gasping for breath and trying to catch up on what he was saying.

 

One last funny incident from the ceremony - a few graduates shook hands with some of the staff who were on the stage as well as VC who was handing out certificates. A guest speaker was the Minister for Science and Industry and when one young lady came for her award (MBA I think), she leant over the table and gave him a big kiss - we found out later that she was his wife !

.

[rab]

9 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Presumably to make it universally understood you have to speak slowly and really loudly?

And use plenty of body language, (arm waving etc)

[APOLLO]

Saw this LP in a music shop window in Freiburg Germany many years ago, caused a laugh or two !!

 

 

My wife's sister is Thai and is married to a German, for quite a while after their marriage they conversed in English !! Their two children are now grown up and fluent in Thai, German and English, as is now my wife's sister and husband.

 

I can speak "nit noy" (a little) Thai but my wife is very fluent in both spoken and written English. It is true that we Brits are a little lazy to learn foreign languages as when "over there" (anywhere) English is spoken and written (menus etc) virtually everywhere.

 

One incident i remember was on a day trip from Hong Kong to Macau. A large Yank turned to me and loudly asked "Say, do you speak American ?" - Sorry, never heard of that language was my reply, his face was a picture !!!!!

 

Brit15

[wombatofludham]

10 hours ago, e30ftw said:

so only the french and the welsh will be upset by this.😄

You might be surprised to learn that Wales is the only part of the UK where the use of English is enshrined in law.  Welsh and English are legally the two languages of Wales.  English has no legal status, defined by Act of Parliament, or protection, elsewhere, something that was confirmed to me in conversation (in Welsh) with former Welsh Language Commissioner, and Speaker of the Senedd, Lord Elis-Thomas.

But don't let that stop you insulting nations who value their language and culture more than the Saxons.

[RichardT]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

they have found that our language is the best

 

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

rule Brittania  !!!!!!   

 

Oh, the irony...