What train is this?

[Chris Turnbull]

I was on Huntingdon station today spending a couple of hours photographing trains (surprise, surprise).  I was diligently making notes of what each train was from Real Time Trains (RTT) and was doing well until this came through.  It is a down service on the down fast and came through at about 11.32.  Can I find this on RTT?  Can I hell!

 

According to RTT there was a down Lumo service at 11.25 which I saw, followed by a Grand Central service to Bradford at 11.34 which is shown as a class 180.  Then RTT shows there were a couple of LNER Azumas at 11.36 (to Edinburgh) and 11.38 (to Leeds).

 

So, does anyone know what service this was? 

 

 

Chris Turnbull

[Wickham Green too]

Obviously none you've mentioned ........ I know nothing of Thameslink north of the Thames - but if it's not stopping there I'd guess it's empty.

[keefer]

Had a look on RTT and it shows 9J22 0855 Horsham-Peterborough (Thameslink Class 700) through Huntingdon at 11.30½

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y53900/2023-06-30/detailed

Edited June 30, 2023 by keefer

[jbqfc]

looking at RTT

it looks like the 0859 Horsham to Peterborough due to pass at 1120 but running 10 late so passed at 1130  

when i use RTT i always put it on actual rather than planned this then put the train in the order they are running 

 

John 

[Mark Saunders]

Use Real Time Trains in conjunction with the maps on Open Train Times means you can watch the progress of a train you are waiting for!

[Mallard60022]

It's the Horsham Worm. 

Did you see a proper Train, hauled by a proper Engine 60103 whilst there?

Phil

[Chris Turnbull]

Thank you to all for your replies.  Yes, it looks like 9J22 which is shown as "N/R" on my RTT which I took to be "not running".  There was a cancellation so that was it.  However, what I don't understand why is there no Actual Pass time shown in the list of trains for Huntingdon yet it shows up in the specific train times.

 

Chris Turnbull 

[Chris Turnbull]

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

It's the Horsham Worm. 

Did you see a proper Train, hauled by a proper Engine 60103 whilst there?

Phil

 

Sadly not.  I didn't realise it was running and was told about it by the station staff.

 

Chris Turnbull

[Mike_Walker]

N/R on RTT stands for "No Report".  

[Michael Hodgson]

26 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

N/R on RTT stands for "No Report".  

Well its times won't be reported if it doesn't run.

[njee20]

I like the maps on Traksy at times like this.  

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Chris Turnbull said:

Sadly not.  I didn't realise it was running and was told about it by the station staff.

The Flying Moneypit doesn't always show up on tracking sites. We saw the back end of a special heading out when arriving at Crewe recently. Checked RTT but no mention so I surfed a few of the usual suspects, came up with the details and found out when it would be leaving Chester on the way back. 

 

I usually check this site to get an idea of specials that may be around.

http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/tours.html

Sometimes the links don't work correctly but if you know the startng point and reporting number or TOC all is not always lost.

Today's workings

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66116/2023-06-30/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:KGX/2023-06-30/0737

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U66117/2023-06-30/detailed

 

As I now know it's at York I searched there all day tomorrow and put in WR for the train operator. Hey Presto!

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:YRK/2023-07-01/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=WR

 

It often only works for one or two days in advance so I couldn't get past that day.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I like the maps on Traksy at times like this.  

Not sure about some of the train types on Traksy. It's recently been telling me that there is a Manchester - Hadfield 1500V DC unit working a train from Wolverhampton to Rugeley. RTT is saying its a Class 350 which I think is more likely.

[njee20]

Yes, I’ve noticed a lot of 350s were being identified as 508s or something I didn’t recognise. Bit weird. Still generally find it useful though for what’s actually coming. 

[Chris Turnbull]

So my next question is: why would 9J22 run, albeit 10 minutes down (22 down through north London), on its scheduled path but not stopping at any stations?  Is it for operational convenience or is there some other reason?

 

Chris Turnbull

[Mike_Walker]

Operators often remove stops from late running services in an effort to ensure the stock is in place for an on time departure of the next service.  Yes, it's inconvenient but it helps prevent wider disruption.

 

@Michael Hodgson comment that if it doesn't run there will be no reports is, l hope, with tongue in cheek.  There are several reasons why trains are not reported, particularly when in traditionally signalled areas where manual input to the system is required or, as here, where the train is off expected route.

[5BarVT]

On 01/07/2023 at 09:08, Mike_Walker said:

Operators often remove stops from late running services in an effort to ensure the stock is in place for an on time departure of the next service.  Yes, it's inconvenient but it helps prevent wider disruption.

Does it also form a ‘p code’ type performance fiddle?  Cut out intermediate stops so it still runs and reaches final destination at right time.  Turning back short results in two part cancellations and gets picked up.

Paul.

[31A]

11 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Does it also form a ‘p code’ type performance fiddle?  Cut out intermediate stops so it still runs and reaches final destination at right time.  Turning back short results in two part cancellations and gets picked up.

Paul.

 

No, if stops are omitted it counts as a 'failure' in the performance figures (the same as a cancellation or part cancellation would) even if by doing so it does arrive at its terminus within 'time'.  What it does do though, is to give the train's next working a chance of being punctual, which may not otherwise have been the case, which is why it is done.

 

Edit: as Mike Walker has said!   Sorry didn't 'read up'!

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by 31A

[adb968008]

On 01/07/2023 at 08:57, Chris Turnbull said:

So my next question is: why would 9J22 run, albeit 10 minutes down (22 down through north London), on its scheduled path but not stopping at any stations?  Is it for operational convenience or is there some other reason?

 

Chris Turnbull

One hopes they told the passengers onboard they were now “express to..”

They dont always do that, which can be very annoying.

not everything hits RTT or OTT etc… I was once awaiting a ballast working when a 313 expressed through to Selhurst one night, nothing showed on anything…except my camera.

 

[Mark Saunders]

A variation to schedule often does not show on real time trains!

[newbryford]

On 30/06/2023 at 20:43, Michael Hodgson said:

Well its times won't be reported if it doesn't run.

 

Not quite.

Not reported is used for locations that don't automatically report - such  as passing points - or if the signalman hasn't manually reported it.

My local station at work  is manned and it depends who is on duty as to whether it gets a reported time or not.

And trains outside the normal shift hours are certainly not reported!

 

Plenty of N/R here: 

 

 

[adb968008]

Some branchlines have times put in, in advance..

 

For example Chessington South, and Epsom downs pre-fill all stops in the line from the junction to the end, as soon as it enters the junction.

so for a few mins the “actual” time can be time travelling into the future.

 

 

[5BarVT]

That’s usually linked to lack of granularity in the signalling system. RTT, I’m almost certain, will be picking up TD steps from the NR data feed and when there are multiple stations in one signal section the times are done by offsets from the TD step.

Same happens between Ellesmere Port and Hooton as there are no identifiable positions between the two.
Paul.

[Chris Turnbull]

I'm glad I asked my original question now!  Thank you for all your detailed technical replies, I find this fascinating.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

On 06/07/2023 at 10:23, 5BarVT said:

That’s usually linked to lack of granularity in the signalling system. RTT, I’m almost certain, will be picking up TD steps from the NR data feed and when there are multiple stations in one signal section the times are done by offsets from the TD step.

Same happens between Ellesmere Port and Hooton as there are no identifiable positions between the two.
Paul.

There are numerous offsets built into the monotoring system including for internal use by NR and Operators.   Part of the reason for this - which goes back to inception of the systems -  is that recording points generated from track circuit etc or TD berth occuaption do not correspond with WTT timing points.   Similarly arrival at a terminus is usually generated by the tracck cicuit occupied when the train is running into the platform.  And, depending on the length of the platform, especially with over cautious defensive driving.  the difference between that time and the time at which the train comes to a stand could be as much as two minutes in theearly days.

 

Some of the offsets have always been pretty accurate and no doubt some have been adjusted over the years where experience has shown a consistent difference between the booked time (especially passing times) and the recorded time.   I can but hope that some of the early guessed offsets have bene corrected following experience..

 

One amusing thing back in the '90s is thatt when we were is using the BR computing P2 programme, with 100% track occupation driven times. some of the offsets on what was by then Railtrack were less accurate that the way SNCF had done things.

Edited July 7, 2023 by The Stationmaster
typos