A Plea For Accurate Milk Tanks

[Rugd1022]

Just found this lurking in my hard drive, no idea of the location or date though...

 

[Combe Martin]

10 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Just found this lurking in my hard drive, no idea of the location or date though...

 

 

It's an early (no roller bearings) BR or GWR underframe (brake lever on the right hand side and with small same size dampers on all 3 wheel sets. 

 

I'm on holiday at the moment so havn't got my picture books and notes with me so cant have a guess at the diagram no.  The running number looks like 30?5 ?

 

As we've said before, preservation era tanker pictures sometimes tell lies, but when I get home I'll see if it ties up with anything I've got.    From it's paint scheme, its had some 'other' use by BR after it was no longer needed for milk.

[Hal Nail]

On 26/07/2023 at 16:43, Rugd1022 said:

this pic from one of the Bradford Barton albums

 

 

I don't suppose you can remember which one? I have loads but don't recall that photo....

[Rugd1022]

4 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I don't suppose you can remember which one? I have loads but don't recall that photo....

 

Yes, it's 'BR Diesels In Action : 4', photo on p76 credited to H.L.Ford, which I was told several years ago is actually a pseudonim for another West Country photographer. The photo was probably taken in 1971 / 72 like most of those which appear in the first diesel book to be published by Bradford Barton 'Diesels On Cornwall Mainline', also by H.L.Ford. (Incidentally the identities for some of the locos in this book are wrong).

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Just found this lurking in my hard drive, no idea of the location or date though...

 

 

The ESSO tank on the right is the one at the WSR if that's any help.

 

 

Jason

[Rugd1022]

Another period shot from the Bradford Barton stable - D6339 on the milk at Hemyock, credited to N.L.Hawkes, the caption gives a date of June '72 but since D6339 was withdrawn on 1st January that year it must be wrong, most likely it's the year before...

 

 

 

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

It's an early (no roller bearings) BR or GWR underframe (brake lever on the right hand side and with small same size dampers on all 3 wheel sets. 

 

I'm on holiday at the moment so havn't got my picture books and notes with me so cant have a guess at the diagram no.  The running number looks like 30?5 ?

 

As we've said before, preservation era tanker pictures sometimes tell lies, but when I get home I'll see if it ties up with anything I've got.    From it's paint scheme, its had some 'other' use by BR after it was no longer needed for milk.

 

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker. I agree it looks like a GWR/BR underframe but the four tanks saddles were more usual on LMS tanks. I don't have photos to hand of the later GWR/BR tank diagrams so it could be late example just prior to the introduction of roller bearings. 30X5 gives some possibilities.

 

3055 or 3075 - GWR/BR diagram O56 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4. It would also have a central ladder so I think we can rule these out

3005, 3015, 3035, 3045 - GWR/BR diagram O57 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

3025 - GWR diagram O58 twin tank. Definitely not one of these

3065 - GWR/BR diagram O60 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

 

So the frame at least is probably a GWR O57 or O60. The O60s I have seen all had roller bearings so I would lean towards thinking this is an O57 so 3005, 3015, 3035 or 3045. The 4 tanks saddles are a puzzler but may not be an original feature. As you say, departmental use and preserved tankers may have varied from their original. Apart from the saddles, it is a match for an O57.

[Hal Nail]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker.

Otherwise known as a Dapol!

 

If you wanted a 5 wagon rake to fairly represent a typical West Country train in c1960, what mix of diagrams  would you pick?

[hmrspaul]

15 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

 

It's an early (no roller bearings) BR or GWR underframe (brake lever on the right hand side and with small same size dampers on all 3 wheel sets. 

 

I'm on holiday at the moment so havn't got my picture books and notes with me so cant have a guess at the diagram no.  The running number looks like 30?5 ?

 

As we've said before, preservation era tanker pictures sometimes tell lies, but when I get home I'll see if it ties up with anything I've got.    From it's paint scheme, its had some 'other' use by BR after it was no longer needed for milk.

W3018 http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2675

 

Certainly an unusual version of a milk tank wagon with only 4 supports.

 

Does anyone know why just a few barrels had the filler at one extreme end?

 

Paul

Edited August 2, 2023 by hmrspaul

[Combe Martin]

18 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker. I agree it looks like a GWR/BR underframe but the four tanks saddles were more usual on LMS tanks. I don't have photos to hand of the later GWR/BR tank diagrams so it could be late example just prior to the introduction of roller bearings. 30X5 gives some possibilities.

 

3055 or 3075 - GWR/BR diagram O56 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4. It would also have a central ladder so I think we can rule these out

3005, 3015, 3035, 3045 - GWR/BR diagram O57 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

3025 - GWR diagram O58 twin tank. Definitely not one of these

3065 - GWR/BR diagram O60 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

 

So the frame at least is probably a GWR O57 or O60. The O60s I have seen all had roller bearings so I would lean towards thinking this is an O57 so 3005, 3015, 3035 or 3045. The 4 tanks saddles are a puzzler but may not be an original feature. As you say, departmental use and preserved tankers may have varied from their original. Apart from the saddles, it is a match for an O57.

 

Thanks for this one. I hadn't picked up before that one of the other GWR/BR and LMS differences was 6 saddles for the GWR and 4 for the LMS.  

 

From the post by hmrspaul it seems its diagram 0.57 3018 and it had been re-tanked with an ex-LMS one so that's where the 4 supports have come from.

[Combe Martin]

11 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

W3018 http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=2675

 

Certainly an unusual version of a milk tank wagon with only 4 supports.

 

Does anyone know why just a few barrels had the filler at one extreme end?

 

Paul

 

It's just a guess, but does the filler at one end go with a sloping tank for emptying ?   

[BMacdermott]

Hello Combe Martin

 

Diag.O57 doesn't have sloping tank but does have ladder and filler one end.

 

Brian

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Does anyone know why just a few barrels had the filler at one extreme end?

 

Paul

So you could get the cream from the filler by unloading it on a gradient😁 ? 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So you could get the cream from the filler by unloading it on a gradient😁 ? 

Nah - all you need is a 'bobbing' signal aspect.  I was having a cab ride in a 'Warship' on a Milk Train one night when a signal at Acton 'bobbed' directly ahead of us - green to red.  So the Driver put the brake in hard.  The signal, a searchlight head. then went through its full repertoire a couple of times before settling back on green.  

 

Brake duly released and virtually all the way to Old Oak East and the Victoria Branch junction you could feel the train bucking and surging as the milk sloshed around in the tank cars.  A very noticeable force so goodness only knows what that milk was like by the time it was unloaded?

[Michael Hodgson]

46 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Brake duly released and virtually all the way to Old Oak East and the Victoria Branch junction you could feel the train bucking and surging as the milk sloshed around in the tank cars.  A very noticeable force so goodness only knows what that milk was like by the time it was unloaded?

Butter is probably difficult to extract from a milk tank unless you have a giant can opener.

[Rugd1022]

Photo by Peter Radford from the (extremely addictive) Cornwall Railway Society site : St.Erth, c.1974...

 

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Butter is probably difficult to extract from a milk tank unless you have a giant can opener.

Some years ago i visited Port Talbot steel works and they told us that if the load in the torpedo wagons solidifies (which it does occasionally apparently) the cure was to cut them open and pull the two halves apart then weld them back together again.  When asked what the do with the solidified contents the answer was "don't ask".

 

Suppose you could do the same with a milk tank although a large pat of butter might be easier to dispose of.

[Combe Martin]

17 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Photo by Peter Radford from the (extremely addictive) Cornwall Railway Society site : St.Erth, c.1974...

 

 

These are 2000 gallon tankers.

[Rugd1022]

Photo by John Vaughan : D1065 'Western Consort' at Exeter with milk tank W3000...

 

 

 

[Combe Martin]

2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Photo by John Vaughan : D1065 'Western Consort' at Exeter with milk tank W3000...

 

 

 

 

 W3000 is an ex Cow & Gate tanker, and is the first photo I've seen of a diagram 0.52 one.

[ColHut]

On 02/08/2023 at 22:37, Karhedron said:

 

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker. I agree it looks like a GWR/BR underframe but the four tanks saddles were more usual on LMS tanks. I don't have photos to hand of the later GWR/BR tank diagrams so it could be late example just prior to the introduction of roller bearings. 30X5 gives some possibilities.

 

3055 or 3075 - GWR/BR diagram O56 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4. It would also have a central ladder so I think we can rule these out

3005, 3015, 3035, 3045 - GWR/BR diagram O57 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

3025 - GWR diagram O58 twin tank. Definitely not one of these

3065 - GWR/BR diagram O60 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

 

So the frame at least is probably a GWR O57 or O60. The O60s I have seen all had roller bearings so I would lean towards thinking this is an O57 so 3005, 3015, 3035 or 3045. The 4 tanks saddles are a puzzler but may not be an original feature. As you say, departmental use and preserved tankers may have varied from their original. Apart from the saddles, it is a match for an O57.

 

I am pretty sure it is just a milk tank wagon.  Chasing the history of its antecedent selves is, whilst a great piece if scholarship and really quite  interesting (at least to me), but you could equally focus that history on wheels, bearings,  chassis, valve and cap fittings. Etc.  It’s not really been created anew from the spare parts box :)

 

regards

 

 

[Combe Martin]

1 hour ago, ColHut said:

 

I am pretty sure it is just a milk tank wagon.  Chasing the history of its antecedent selves is, whilst a great piece if scholarship and really quite  interesting (at least to me), but you could equally focus that history on wheels, bearings,  chassis, valve and cap fittings. Etc.  It’s not really been created anew from the spare parts box :)

 

regards

 

 

 

Just to clarify,  Karhedron's conclusions are correct. It was originally a diagram 0.57 built 1946 using a standard GWR underframe.  At some point in its life (possibly in departmental use ?, possibly before ?, but at the moment that's unknown) it's been re-tanked with a tank (and the 4 supports ?) from a diagram 2173 ex LMS vehicle,

 

Quote from West Somerset Railway information  .....

 

'Originally built for United Dairies. Has been re-tanked with tank from ex-LMS Diagram 2173 vehicle. P 1996. At Dunster'.

 

Also given that this same underframe is used under many ex GWR and BR diagram vehicles it surely really cannot now be called a diagram 0.57 ?

 

I would suggest this one shouldn't be used as a prototype for a new RTR model, though the underframe is OK. 

[phil-b259]

On 04/08/2023 at 13:56, Mike_Walker said:

Some years ago i visited Port Talbot steel works and they told us that if the load in the torpedo wagons solidifies (which it does occasionally apparently) the cure was to cut them open and pull the two halves apart then weld them back together again.  When asked what the do with the solidified contents the answer was "don't ask".

 

Suppose you could do the same with a milk tank although a large pat of butter might be easier to dispose of.

Butter melts with heat - so simply heating the wagon might be enough to get it to come out. A good steam clean would remove any remnants 

[OnTheBranchline]

Anyone else getting thirsty reading this topic? 😆

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Anyone else getting thirsty reading this topic? 😆

Well, it has reminded me I forgot to chuck the milk out before going away.