WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[newbryford]

16 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Since WCRC provide the coaches to several mainline steam heritage train operators is there any news as to whether the 2024 excursion programme can take place?
 

Or is this an Official Secret?
 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

WCRC have been  publicising their 2024 Jacobite program.

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/jacobite-2024-season-update

 

Phew - I think we're back on topic......

[The Stationmaster]

23 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

WCRC have been  publicising their 2024 Jacobite program.

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/jacobite-2024-season-update

 

Phew - I think we're back on topic......

I wonder when they put that together?  was it a matter more of hope that anticipation i wonder or have they actually statrted to do the work they couldn't afford to do.  

 

However this is interesting reading from their website. look where is says   'the judgement does not require us to change or suspend our services' .  I wonder what they think the judgement did mean?-

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-2

Edited January 7 by The Stationmaster

[burgundy]

14 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I wonder if anyone ever ticked the box to say they were involved in terrorism?

Given that US Immigration Officers are famously short of any sense of humour, it is probably not a good idea.

A bit like a colleague of mine who was entering an MOD establishment and showed his pass to the police dog - rather than the handler. He only did it once. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Bernard Lamb]

13 hours ago, lmsforever said:

When I worked for BT in the sixties  I had to sign the Secrets Act because we went onto all the local military bases and the local rocket testing facility which everybody locally knew what they did and the noise when they did testing echoed all round the locality.  Later in life  in catering wholesale I had to go into many military bases all over the south  and they knew I was covered  by the act even though I signed it a long while before, I enjoyed my visits especialy when went onto an active  RAF base and saw Lightnings takeing off. 

Wetcott was very strict in controlling access. Two to three weeks notice just for a delivery driver, with some interesting background checks. I never did get a chance to see a rocket test. At one time I believe that they had the only surviving German V2 engine in working order.

Bernard 

[Mike_Walker]

15 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Gilbert Harding, when presented with the question "Is it your intention to overthrow the government of the United States by force?" allegedly answered "Sole purpose of visit". 

I had a friend, now sadly passed, who always wanted to put that but he always chickened out at the last minute!

 

[jjb1970]

I thought I'd pushed things too far once. I was given the third degree about why I had several passport stamps for a certain Middle Eastern country and explained I was on a ship which had been based there to support offshore energy operations. The guy kept asking the most asinine questions, at one point I said that I wasn't responsible for commercial decisions of my employer as to where they would bid for work which seemed to inflame things, inflamed further by pointing out that the client was a company headed by the then VP of the USA. Eventually I kind of flipped and pointed out I was in transit to Trinidad, I didn't want to be in the US and if they weren't happy about my travel history just fly me home as I really wasn't bothered about being denied entry to the US (as an aside the US is the only country I've ever transited in where transfer passengers enter the country, everywhere else you just stay airside and aren't affected by immigration). At that point the guy flipped and a supervisor came and calmed things down. The supervisor was actually very nice, he told me he understood why I was unhappy and it hadn't been well handled but equally I should avoid inflaming things.

[ruggedpeak]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder when they put that together?  was it a matter more of hope that anticipation i wonder or have they actually statrted to do the work they couldn't afford to do.  

 

However this is interesting reading from their website. look where is says   'the judgement does not require us to change or suspend our services' .  I wonder what they think the judgement did mean?-

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-2

Their responses to the various actions and decisions following Wootton are on record so this is perhaps no surprise and does appear to be consistent with their corporate approach. What is interesting is the suggestion that they are taking bookings for something that they appear to have told the court they couldn't deliver.

 

[Bucoops]

I have a friend who when asked by an Australian immigration official if he had any convictions replied "I didn't know it was still a pre-requisite to have one". Now Aussies DO have a sense of humour but I suspect they had heard that one before....

[stewartingram]

Going back to my days when I was in the Home Office supporting Police Comms, another incident regarding the Molesworth air base. Long closed from its American flying days ( I remember going to a couple of air displays there in the 50s), it was retained by the USAF for a coule of reasons. Firstly, redundant vehicles were collected there for onward didposal. Secondly, one of the hangars was used as the European map store. And following on from this, it wasre-established for operstional use as a Cruise missile base in the 80s, resulting in massive rebuilding on site. This is when the peace protesters got established, making camp on the perimeter. The Police became involved in the latter, and we set up a radio system on site. Initially it was in a garden shed outside the hangar; we had to have access to the hangar for power and aerial. This involved security with the (minimal) USAF personnel, which was no real problem. Later on, when building started we moved the shed into the hangar; we became very friendly with the guys. The building operation became massive, but that s another story. When it wa complete (although the huge complex of portacabins remained for a while, they had an invited 'open day'  (not public!), which we had to attend for aa radio fault. We were made welcome, even by the top brass, and I was invited - even encouraged to take the attached pics of the Cruise missile carrier. Astonishing really.

And the peace protesters remained outside the fence.

[johnofwessex]

This was in pre internet days but CND Airborn who flew the CND Balloon suspected that their mail was being read.

 

So they set up a fake plan to drop a parachutist over Molesworth on a Bank Holiday weekend, this was the subject of a lot of correspondence!

 

Then they got a phone callk from the CAA 'you know you cant drop a parachutist from a balloon?'

 

Yes

 

Well Dont

 

We wont as its not allowed 

 

etc etc

 

Needless to say no such plan existed!

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Going back to my days when I was in the Home Office supporting Police Comms, another incident regarding the Molesworth air base. Long closed from its American flying days ( I remember going to a couple of air displays there in the 50s), it was retained by the USAF for a coule of reasons. Firstly, redundant vehicles were collected there for onward didposal. Secondly, one of the hangars was used as the European map store. And following on from this, it wasre-established for operstional use as a Cruise missile base in the 80s, resulting in massive rebuilding on site. This is when the peace protesters got established, making camp on the perimeter. The Police became involved in the latter, and we set up a radio system on site. Initially it was in a garden shed outside the hangar; we had to have access to the hangar for power and aerial. This involved security with the (minimal) USAF personnel, which was no real problem. Later on, when building started we moved the shed into the hangar; we became very friendly with the guys. The building operation became massive, but that s another story. When it wa complete (although the huge complex of portacabins remained for a while, they had an invited 'open day'  (not public!), which we had to attend for aa radio fault. We were made welcome, even by the top brass, and I was invited - even encouraged to take the attached pics of the Cruise missile carrier. Astonishing really.

And the peace protesters remained outside the fence.

The cruise missile convoys were not secret. Every few weeks a huge convoy of them and their support vehicles would drive out of the base to a remote location to practice their drills for WW3, which was deploying the missiles to remote sites to avoid being hit in the event of a Soviet nuclear first strike, as part of the nuclear deterrent. They wanted publicity for them so that everyone knew NATO could throw some nukes back no matter what. The Greenham ladies were very effective on the publicity front.....

 

I went to school in Berkshire back then and one of my class mates was American and his Dad drove them for the USAF. Apparently driving these down the narrow country lanes of Berkshire was entertaining!

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I thought I'd pushed things too far once. I was given the third degree about why I had several passport stamps for a certain Middle Eastern country and explained I was on a ship which had been based there to support offshore energy operations. The guy kept asking the most asinine questions, at one point I said that I wasn't responsible for commercial decisions of my employer as to where they would bid for work which seemed to inflame things, inflamed further by pointing out that the client was a company headed by the then VP of the USA. Eventually I kind of flipped and pointed out I was in transit to Trinidad, I didn't want to be in the US and if they weren't happy about my travel history just fly me home as I really wasn't bothered about being denied entry to the US (as an aside the US is the only country I've ever transited in where transfer passengers enter the country, everywhere else you just stay airside and aren't affected by immigration). At that point the guy flipped and a supervisor came and calmed things down. The supervisor was actually very nice, he told me he understood why I was unhappy and it hadn't been well handled but equally I should avoid inflaming things.

I used to have a colleague who was Irish by citizenship, but born in Saudi Arabia. He got quite fed up of being "randomly selected" for additional screening every time he went to the US...

[Legend]

Oh hell, we are off again ………….

[nightstar.train]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder when they put that together?  was it a matter more of hope that anticipation i wonder or have they actually statrted to do the work they couldn't afford to do.  

 

However this is interesting reading from their website. look where is says   'the judgement does not require us to change or suspend our services' .  I wonder what they think the judgement did mean?-

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-2

 

Is this a sort of fudge of the truth to make themselves look less bad? It's true that they are not having to change the Jacobite service, it can still operate on it's set days and times, but they do have to alter the stock that works it. And it reassures the paying public that the services will be running over the summer and they can book for them. I think (always dangerous) that they are splitting hairs by being technically truthful whilst in the background madly fitting CDL to at least one rake by March so the Jacobite can restart (and a second rake by May for when they run two services a day).

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

The cruise missile convoys were not secret. Every few weeks a huge convoy of them and their support vehicles would drive out of the base to a remote location to practice their drills for WW3, which was deploying the missiles to remote sites to avoid being hit in the event of a Soviet nuclear first strike, as part of the nuclear deterrent. They wanted publicity for them so that everyone knew NATO could throw some nukes back no matter what. The Greenham ladies were very effective on the publicity front.....

 

I went to school in Berkshire back then and one of my class mates was American and his Dad drove them for the USAF. Apparently driving these down the narrow country lanes of Berkshire was entertaining!

The really hilarious thing about Greenham and the cruise missiles was that warheads were stored somewhere else.  Seemingly and nobody in any protest movement ever  tumbled to that despite the fact that on the approaches to the ste the armed guards in a watch tower could easily be seen from a very busy public road.

 

Noe w back tothe wild west -

9 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

 

Is this a sort of fudge of the truth to make themselves look less bad? It's true that they are not having to change the Jacobite service, it can still operate on it's set days and times, but they do have to alter the stock that works it. And it reassures the paying public that the services will be running over the summer and they can book for them. I think (always dangerous) that they are splitting hairs by being technically truthful whilst in the background madly fitting CDL to at least one rake by March so the Jacobite can restart (and a second rake by May for when they run two services a day).

Which begs the question are they fitting CDL or did they lie in court when saying that they couldn't afford to fit it?  And are they seriously expecting a further dispensation to be granted by the ORR after they basically turned round and took no notice of the action they were supposed to take when they got the previous one.

 

Being something of a cynical sort - especially where this bunch are concerned - I get the impression that they are banking on getting plenty of bookings so they can turn round and blame the ORR if they are not allowed to operate unless they use CDL fitted stock.  That will give them the opportunity to play the 'small company being oppressed by jobsworth officialdom' card - and there are already people out there elsewhere on the 'net thinking that is what is going on.  I hope that someone in the ORR is bright enough to suss out the game this bunch are playing and will stop them taking bookings until it is known that they can deliver what they are selling.

[adb968008]

Wcrc does own a bunch of mk2d/e/f, enough to run the whl… nearly 20 such, in BSO/TSO and FO.

 

heres one such in summer 2023..

 

Flickr/url not mine

 

presumably these will be cdl fitted from BR days.

The Black5’s owned by Rileys are air brake fitted.

 

This maybe an option to start with.

 

I suspect they will make the whl operate one way or another. Its the day trippers that may find it tough going.

Whats the status with the DRS mk2’s ? Are any of those still available ?

 

 

Edited January 8 by adb968008

[Reorte]

9 hours ago, burgundy said:

Given that US Immigration Officers are famously short of any sense of humour, it is probably not a good idea.

My uncle once got questioned by one in Miami - "I know you, don't I?" which made him very nervous. He was just transiting, hadn't even been there before. Then she followed up with "Weren't you at so-and-so's party?" Turns out that yes, he had been (which was in a completely different part of the country).

[Matt37268]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

 

 

Being something of a cynical sort - especially where this bunch are concerned - I get the impression that they are banking on getting plenty of bookings so they can turn round and blame the ORR if they are not allowed to operate unless they use CDL fitted stock.  That will give them the opportunity to play the 'small company being oppressed by jobsworth officialdom' card - and there are already people out there elsewhere on the 'net thinking that is what is going on.  I hope that someone in the ORR is bright enough to suss out the game this bunch are playing and will stop them taking bookings until it is known that they can deliver what they are selling.

Does the ORR have the powers to do that though? I do agree with you though, WC don’t help themselves at times. 

[phil-b259]

5 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

Does the ORR have the powers to do that though? I do agree with you though, WC don’t help themselves at times. 

 

The ORR does not have any powers with respect to charter ticket sales - those would be regulated in the same way as theatre / pop concert ticket sales etc are (i.e. not very much save for the fact that if the promoter doesn't deliver the goods then they could be gone after by trading standards or maybe advertising standards) 

Edited January 8 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

Being something of a cynical sort - especially where this bunch are concerned - I get the impression that they are banking on getting plenty of bookings so they can turn round and blame the ORR if they are not allowed to operate unless they use CDL fitted stock.  That will give them the opportunity to play the 'small company being oppressed by jobsworth officialdom' card - and there are already people out there elsewhere on the 'net thinking that is what is going on.  I hope that someone in the ORR is bright enough to suss out the game this bunch are playing and will stop them taking bookings until it is known that they can deliver what they are selling.

Railway Touring companys 9 day “The Great Britain” tour of 2015… 

 

The highlight (or lowlight) was day 6.. Edinburgh to Inverness with 60009 turned into a trip on GNERs Highland Chieftain HST, with the Far North runs to Kyle and Wick cancelled. 

This was after several steam locos were replaced by a DB66 from Cornwall, which did manage 70000 outward from London to Exeter with a DB crew.

just look at all the “cancelled” in April / May

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs15.htm

 

Despite Wootton Basset and the NR Ban (which followed the ban from the LNE the previous year due to fires), it didnt stop them trying.

 

You can advertise anything you like, but its upto Network Rail and / ORR if the train leaves the station.

Edited January 9 by adb968008

[pete_mcfarlane]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Being something of a cynical sort - especially where this bunch are concerned - I get the impression that they are banking on getting plenty of bookings so they can turn round and blame the ORR if they are not allowed to operate unless they use CDL fitted stock.  That will give them the opportunity to play the 'small company being oppressed by jobsworth officialdom' card - and there are already people out there elsewhere on the 'net thinking that is what is going on.  I hope that someone in the ORR is bright enough to suss out the game this bunch are playing and will stop them taking bookings until it is known that they can deliver what they are selling.

I'm sure that whatever happens, it won't be their fault. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/01/2024 at 23:10, Matt37268 said:

Does the ORR have the powers to do that though? I do agree with you though, WC don’t help themselves at times. 

They can't stop them taking bookings but don't forget that WCRC have still not met the ORR's requirements regarding producing a prorgramme and completion date for the fitting of CDL nor have WCRC produced, as yet, an acceptable risk assessment to support interim arrangements until such time as CDL is fitted..

 

 If tWCRC continue to fail to meet requirements placed upon them thent HMI would be entitled to serve a Prohibition Notice preventing them from uinning the trains on the West Highland Extension.

[Matt37268]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

They can't stop them taking bookings but don't forget that WCRC have still not met the ORR's requirements regarding producing a prorgramme and completion date for the fitting of CDL nor have WCRC produced, as yet, an acceptable risk assessment to support interim arrangements until such time as CDL is fitted..

 

 If tWCRC continue to fail to meet requirements placed upon them thent HMI would be entitled to serve a Prohibition Notice preventing them from uinning the trains on the West Highland Extension.

I’m guessing that a prohibition notice wouldn’t apply to just ops on the West Highland Extension though?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

33 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

I’m guessing that a prohibition notice wouldn’t apply to just ops on the West Highland Extension though?

The original prohibition notice, linked to on page 1 of this thread (but it is here, to save you having to look: https://orrprdpubreg1.blob.core.windows.net/docs/P-KB-14062023-West-Coast-Railway-Company-Ltd-prohibition-notice.pdf) was specifically for the Jacobite. I don't recall having heard anything at all about their other opertations. I assumed that this was because their other stock already has central door locking, but perhaps it is simply that on their other main line steam trains they are able to get sufficient stewards. I was certainly under the impression that their air braked stock had central door locking.

 

One of the issues, which I think was mentioned early on in this thread but which seems to have been forgotten about, is that most or all designs of central door locking require an air supply, which vacuum-braked trains do not have. I am sure that a non-air solution can be found for vacuum-braked operations such as the Jacobite, but it might require a significant amount of design work and testing, rather than being something that can simply be bolted on. If this is the case, then I find it hard to imagine WCRC being able to carry out all the necessary work in the time available, even if they had the will. As it is, they seem to think that they'll be able to carry on as they had been doing. I rather suspect that HMRI won't stand for it.

[ruggedpeak]

Seen this in Rail mag, says WCRC will have to fit CDL on its coaches by Feb 29 or cease mainline operations. Not just Jacobite. Is this news or have I been a bit slow?

 

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2024/01/09/west-coast-railways-handed-ultimatum-after-judicial-review

 

For info, here's WCRC's barristers, they were instructed by the lawyers in the case DLA Piper, who in turn will presumably have acted on the instructions of their client.

 

https://www.11kbw.com/knowledge-events/article/tom-cross-and-raphael-hogarth-act-for-hogwarts-express-train-company-in-judicial-review-of-regulator/

 

This comment made me laugh "The judgment will be of interest to practitioners advising commercial entities on challenges to regulatory decisions."  Not really, it was such a weak case it was always going to lose, only a matter of how badly. The fact that the court felt it necessary in its judgement to explain basic legal procedure on things like evidence it to a multi-million pound company and its lawyers is not a good outcome for them.