RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) I suppose one option for WCRC is to offload its rolling stock non-CDL stock, hire in suitable stock for WHL Extension services, and just supply motive power. CDL then becomes someone else's problem. Edited January 11 by rodent279 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 07/01/2024 at 22:41, The Stationmaster said: I wonder when they put that together? was it a matter more of hope that anticipation i wonder or have they actually statrted to do the work they couldn't afford to do. However this is interesting reading from their website. look where is says 'the judgement does not require us to change or suspend our services' . I wonder what they think the judgement did mean?- https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-travel-information-the-jacobite-2 It means they can carry on operating, as the company itself wasn't banned, just their rolling stock - so they can run their tours if they hire in rolling stock from somebody else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 3 hours ago, ruggedpeak said: For info, here's WCRC's barristers, they were instructed by the lawyers in the case DLA Piper, who in turn will presumably have acted on the instructions of their client. https://www.11kbw.com/knowledge-events/article/tom-cross-and-raphael-hogarth-act-for-hogwarts-express-train-company-in-judicial-review-of-regulator/ Phew, for a moment, I thought my best friend from school might have been representing WCRC, then I checked and found he works at the practice next door. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 (edited) 8 hours ago, ruggedpeak said: Seen this in Rail mag, says WCRC will have to fit CDL on its coaches by Feb 29 or cease mainline operations. Not just Jacobite. Is this news or have I been a bit slow? I guess WCRC should consider themselves fortunate that it's a leap year, meaning they have an extra day to complete the work. :) Edited January 11 by rab 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) We all know they arent going to fit 100 coaches by feb 29th with cdl. However, they do have some mk2’s with cdl. I would assume these would be excluded, because they are compliant, and were not listed in the list of vehicles from the ORR needing an exemption. I’m not sure how cdl will be fitted to stock with inwards opening doors, manchester pullman mk2’s, met cammell mk1 pullmans etc, and also stuff like the Queen of Scots set, which might be game over, at least 1 of which is after 110 years on the mainline ? Edited January 11 by adb968008 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 Can't see how it would be any different fitting CDL to an inward opening door than it is to an outward opening door. Then again, I'm not an expert on cdl, so maybe there is a good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, rab said: I guess WCRC should consider themselves fortunate that it's a leap year, meaning they have an extra day to complete the work. :) It would appear that the extra day is not forthcoming 2 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) Oh well Game over. it was fun whilst it lasted. warehouse cleared in widnes, maybe a mk1 sale in Carnforth next. why buy Hornby when you can buy the real thing. seriously though… WCRC pays real wages… a lot of people must be uncertain tonight and thats never a good thing. Edited January 11 by adb968008 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Indeed, anything not fitted with an operable CDL is hereby and forthwith grounded. WCRC don’t need a reg5 exemption (which is what has been revoked) if they have operable CDL fitted to their coaches. not sure many expected this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SZ Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 They're just bluffing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) The John McEnroe award for post of the day goes to… 25 minutes ago, SZ said: They're just bluffing. ORR bluffing ? You cannot be serious. 😀 Edited January 11 by adb968008 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 42 minutes ago, newbryford said: It would appear that the extra day is not forthcoming Where did that quote come from as I can't find that new certificate on the ORR website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 14 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Oh well Game over. it was fun whilst it lasted. warehouse cleared in widnes, maybe a mk1 sale in Carnforth next. why buy Hornby when you can buy the real thing. seriously though… WCRC pays real wages… a lot of people must be uncertain tonight and thats never a good thing. As LSL, the Hastings Diesels lot, etc have shown its pretty easy to come up with magnetic or air CDL solutions whic work with Mk1s at a relatively low cost. Consequently I have little time or any sympathy for WCR. Their problem is solely around the owners unwillingness to spend money.... 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 17 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: Indeed, anything not fitted with an operable CDL is hereby and forthwith grounded. WCRC don’t need a reg5 exemption (which is what has been revoked) if they have operable CDL fitted to their coaches. not sure many expected this. Why would they not have expected this? The ORR have been crystal clear on the matter of CDL for the past couple of years and there is ZERO REASON to continue to pander to WCR. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 19 minutes ago, adb968008 said: seriously though… WCRC pays real wages… a lot of people must be uncertain tonight and thats never a good thing. They are (or were up until now) still recruiting stewards for the Jacobite. https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/careers 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: Where did that quote come from as I can't find that new certificate on the ORR website. https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-01/wcrc-regulation-5-revocation-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf and the master list of all regulation 4 and regulation 5 exemptions are here https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-compliance/rail/health-safety/infrastructure/mark-1-rolling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) 16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said: As LSL, the Hastings Diesels lot, etc have shown its pretty easy to come up with magnetic or air CDL solutions whic work with Mk1s at a relatively low cost. Consequently I have little time or any sympathy for WCR. Their problem is solely around the owners unwillingness to spend money.... No sympathy for the staff based on the managers decisions… wow, thats harsh, even for you.! You know they probably have little input / no input into this ? Thats like shooting prisoners after surrender… management make decisions they are the ones to hold to account, not the driver, guard, fitter etc… they are just doing their job, have some sympathy.. they dont know whats coming next. Edited January 11 by adb968008 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 10 minutes ago, phil-b259 said: Why would they not have expected this? The ORR have been crystal clear on the matter of CDL for the past couple of years and there is ZERO REASON to continue to pander to WCR. Because there are other operators with live regulation 5 exemptions in place allowing trains to continue to run through to Late 24/early 25 whilst CDL is being fitted. They have not been grounded until fitted. the mood music from ORR was one of negotiation & supporting a transition. ORR have to be fair and consistent in how they apply the regs. Vengeance is not a trait they are allowed to have. the mood music ftom West Coast however hasn’t been so harmonious so maybe they’ve f@&ked up and tried it on again and ORR have finally said enough is enough. it could also be that West Coast have already fitted a couple of rakes (air brakes MK1s should be straight forward) and that could include the ex-Riviera rake. (No exemption from regulation 5 is needed if CDL is fitted, neither Riviera nor LSL have one). Edited January 11 by black and decker boy Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) I have every sympathy for those front line staff whose jobs are at the mercy of the whims of management & directors, after all we are all in that position to some extent, unless you happen to be a director. Sometimes sh!t gets imposed from on high and there's little staff on the ground can do about it, whatever their views are on the matter. A wise man once said to me whatever position you're in, you're only a 30 min board meeting away from a P45. Edited January 11 by rodent279 2 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, black and decker boy said: Because there are other operators with live regulation 5 exemptions in place allowing trains to continue to run through to Late 24/early 25 whilst CDL is being fitted. They have not been grounded until fitted. the mood music from ORR was one of negotiation & supporting a transition. ORR have to be fair and consistent in how they apply the regs. Vengeance is not a trait they are allowed to have. the mood music ftom West Coast however hasn’t been so harmonious so maybe they’ve f@&ked up and tried it on again and ORR have finally said enough is enough. it could also be that West Coast have already fitted a couple of rakes (air brakes MK1s should be straight forward) and that could include the ex-Riviera rake. (No exemption from regulation 5 is needed if CDL is fitted, neither Riviera nor LSL have one). Its not about vengeance, the ORR did make it clear… Quote But the ORR has now been issued a further certificate allowing WCR to run its services until a judgment has been handed down or until 29 February 2024, whichever comes sooner. and James Shuttleworth is quoted by the BBc as understanding it… Quote Commercial manager James Shuttleworth said: "We are pleased that the ORR have issued us a further exemption certificate so that we can continue operations at least until judgment on the review is handed down, with our existing but robust safety measures in place. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67573695# so this shouldnt be a surprise to anyone. The question is what comes next ? Fit out the stock Give up sell up scrap it. something else ? They do have some stock cdl fitted… aircon mk2d’s etc mostly. 3313/26/50/52/92/95/3431 5756/5903/6021/22/41/6103/6115 9401/93 none of these are on this exemption list, which has just been revoked… https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/wcrc-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf but several were seen out and a out last year, presumably as they don't need an exemption as they are cdl fitted. If i’m reading it right, this isnt a ban on WCRC, its just a revocation of an exemption for non compliant stock Edited January 11 by adb968008 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 43 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: not sure many expected this. Anyone with the most basic competence in safety management could see this coming many miles off. They had an exemption but to have an exemption you need a proper plan in place, play by the rules and not have any incidents. In a superb example of their genius at safety managemet they decided to fight it and go to Judicial Review with a weak case and managed to prove to the court beyond reasonable doubt that they had failed on all 3 points. That gave the ORR all the ammo it needed to take whatever action it deems necessary. It is not ORR's decision that WCR can't manage non-CDL stock, it is now a Judge's ruling. It takes a special sort of genius to take a less than ideal position and turn it into a slam dunk disaster. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 11 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11 Basing an entire business case on the existence of an ongoing exemption to a safety requirement does not seem to be the most robust way of managing a business to me. 3 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, adb968008 said: No sympathy for the staff based on the managers decisions… wow, thats harsh, even for you.! You know they probably have little input / no input into this ? Thats like shooting prisoners after surrender… management make decisions they are the ones to hold to account, not the driver, guard, fitter etc… they are just doing their job, have some sympathy.. they dont know whats coming next. Sympathy has no place in when we are talking about a safety measure - because next thing you know you are downplaying the significance and before you know it sanctioning poor managerial behaviours, particularly as said company has tried to use emotional blackmail about things like job losses and lack of tourist spend before to argue against complying The ORR have given operators of Mk1s plenty of notice, other operators of Mk1s (or similar) have shown it can be done - yet the head of WCR seems to think his company is a special case. NOBODY running a train company should be going round thinking they don't need to comply with the law and launching a judicial review to try and get out of it. If their employees suffer as a result then, as sad as it may be, the reaction has to be 'so be it' The job of the ORR should be (and I accept it isn't always thanks to meddling politicians) about rigorously upholding standards within the railway industry - if individuals or companies don't like they then they shouldn't be part of the industry in the first place. Edited January 11 by phil-b259 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, black and decker boy said: the mood music ftom West Coast however hasn’t been so harmonious so maybe they’ve f@&ked up and tried it on again and ORR have finally said enough is enough. They did exactly that on last years Jacobite! (1)The ORR do an inspection and find the conditions of the exemption are not being compiled with (not enough stewards) and issue an official improvement notice. (2) WCR do NOTHING! (3) The ORR inspectors return a month later and find NOTHING HAS CHANGED and WCR are STILL in flouting the conditions of their exemption certificate (4) The ORR then intimately stops the Jacobite from operating! (5) Only then does WCR finally get round to recruiting more stewards so they are in compliance. (6) Once this recruitment process has been completed and the ORR are happy sufficient trained stewards are in place can Jacobite operations resume. Any sane company boss would, you might assume, have taken action after (1) but no it took the ORR to actually stop them from operating before they did anything (and even then I seem to recall the initial reaction was a barrage of press releases saying how unfair it was and how vital the Jacobite was for the local economy so WCR should be given more time to put things right while the trains continued to run). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted January 11 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11 (edited) Serious stuff for the Lochaber economy . Hope they get it sorted or one of the major draws for foreign visitors is going to impact on the credibility of the whole tourism industry in Scotland . Can’t even run a train! Edited January 11 by Legend 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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