WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[woodenhead]

@BoD I agree it’s the press but it wouldn’t make news if it was just ‘steam train no longer runs to Mallaig’

 

Whilst their press release might make no connection with Harry Potter, they certainly know that having the press make the association for them helps enormously with their David and Goliath sob story.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

@adb968008 And there are plenty of Warners/HarryPotter licensed trains at theme parks that cater for that.

 

it should not be beyond the capability of train operators to create an experience like Harry Potter without using ancient MK1 coaches.

 

But WCRC don’t want to do that, they are selling the Jacobite that just happens to use the viaduct in the film, it’s Harry Potter by association as they don’t want to get into licensing problems as well.

 

And cynical to then use Harry Potter to get themselves into the news and portray the ORR as the bad guys.

Thats called business.

 

they all do it, push the limits and occasionally get caught out…

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68607823
 

You wouldnt find this confusion between SWR and LNWR, as they are simply train companies, running as businesses... and despite best efforts of OA operators, the rail industry is a narrow protective closed shop with a very high barrier to entry… I suspect thats why operators like virgin trains, lumo etc attract such ire from those inside the industry, who don't like being challenged by free market forces, and those businesses have sales, marketing and legals that are so much better at it.. the industry hated virgin “anybody but virgin”, because as a commercial business they were basically excellent at it… for those in the industry it was a horrific glimpse of what the rest of the real world lives with everyday… its ironic that even their exit was a perfectly timed escape before the covid fiasco.

 

 

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

47 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Harry Potter is no doubt a very useful tool for bringing in business, they don't need to risk treading on any legal toes to make use of that perception of it (although you could certainly argue that their headbutting with the ORR shows that they're happy enough to do that even when they're on a hiding to nothing). Probably helps that the train's been running since before Harry Potter made it more popular.

They will only take on those they think they can beat, even if their attempts are weak and appear to be self-defeating.

 

Warner Bros are a global media empire who can unleash the legal hounds of hell onto a tiddler company like WCRC and crush them without batting an eyelid. ORR as a public body can't do the same.

 

One assumes that WCRC can't really launch any more litigation against ORR at the moment as that would likely mean the exemption process would be put on hold. The funny thing is, with ORR saying it takes about 3 months, and the WCRC being a demonstrably litigious applicant with form for not providing all of the information requested, ORR have good reason to proceed far more carefully than normal, which will probably mean it takes a lot longer than 3 months. That assumes WCRC have submitted a complete application with all the required information.

Edited March 21 by ruggedpeak
typo

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

That's fine, but if that's the case they should stand aside and let an operator who can meet the minimum infrastructure requirements run it.   

 

I could run a really profitable coach touring business around the West Highlands if I didn't have to fart about with all that tedious red tape around drivers' hours, PSVO licences, MOTs, VAT etc. This is no different. 

Good point , well made 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

That's fine, but if that's the case they should stand aside and let an operator who can meet the minimum infrastructure requirements run it.   

 

I could run a really profitable coach touring business around the West Highlands if I didn't have to fart about with all that tedious red tape around drivers' hours, PSVO licences, MOTs, VAT etc. This is no different. 

Of course anyone can take over a highly marketable successful operation run for over 30 years, without paying the previous business owner for it…

 

Just  needs a few million in mainline certified steam locomotives, of the right size for the line, a few million for a few rakes of suitably certified coaches, to the right safety spec, a few million in staffing and admin to process all the required paperwork and set up all the industry requirements…

Then do it all in 3 weeks, whilst not expecting the orr to take 4 months and question any of it... oh and magically have all the staffing ready, available and trained to do it.

 

if wcrc steps back, the whl steam isnt returning as it was, for at least 5 years, if ever, and even then only likely if wcrc shares some of its stock and staff.

 

No one has sufficient stock, staff available to step in, even if lsl has a B1 and a Black5, and decided to cut all there other businesses to service this with their stock…it would still need at minimum a few million £ commitment to get even a basic summer time only once a day working, and I doubt that would even be ready for next year…

 

look at Steam Dreams and their Tuesday night surrey hills, windsor express... as soon as LSL took over it died, as only wcrc had “suitable”* stock, staff and back up locos to the B1… it may just make it back this summer for one night a week over six weeks.

 

They are a business, and incumbent, if they cant make this financially work, then no one else can. They have options, the option they chose, regardless of fault or blame, was to cancel.

 

Whilst they may seek public sympathy and local business reaction, it is equally possible they just get platitudes of “well that was fun whilst it lasted”.

 

People might want wcrc to go away, but theres no one able to replace them… and in the interim nothing prevents Scotrail seeking the slots either, then its game over.

 

* suitable now being unsuitable to the orr.

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[stewartingram]

Don't forget that WCR "own" the train paths for the Jacobite. They would have to hand back their rights to NR before they could be transferred to another operator.

[johnofwessex]

20 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Don't forget that WCR "own" the train paths for the Jacobite. They would have to hand back their rights to NR before they could be transferred to another operator.

 

Didnt that happen with The Shakespeare Express as WCRC was at one stage the TOC?

[62613]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

People might want wcrc to go away, but theres no one able to replace them… and in the interim nothing prevents Scotrail seeking the slots either, then its game over.

* suitable now being unsuitable to the orr.

Why do you think anyone would want WCRC to go away? There might be some who are sick and tired of all the shenanigans of dealing with them, but force them out?

[black and decker boy]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Have we actually seen any other charter company produce a vb cdl fitted rake yet, they are just commiting to do it.. commitment and delivery isnt the same thing, they too maybe postponing the inevitable… ask any business for a roadmap and how much they deliver.

 

Fw-mallaig might be a prize asset, but just like Hattons winding down, if wcrc arent seeing a way through this, they arent going to operate at a loss… has anyone actually seen a mk1 vac brake with cdl yet ?.. whilst fitting air to steam loco is possible, or cdl to air might be “cheap and easy”.. if the economics arent there, they arent there.… berating wcrc for not doing it is pointless, they arent a train company, they are a business and if numbers dont stack up, playing the jv game maybe there only economic chance of prolonging the inevitable end… they might be compelled to fit cdl, but they arent compelled to run trains…  

 

WCRZc bought all of the Riviera MK1s which are air or dual braked in 2022 or early 2023.

 

The Jacobite locos are hired from Riley and air braked.

 

vac brakes are therefore a side show and not a barrier to solving the Jacobite should WCRC actually want to move forward in a positive way.

 

as for economic viability, from published accounts, the Jacobite was 50% of the annual profit (£1m per year) but slightly less than 50% of turnover which means all the other rail tours operated and loco hire, engineering services etc generate the other 50% of the profit.

 

it is a very good % profit vs turnover and they have continued to buy locos and coaching stock despite knowing all of this about CDL, emission tanks etc fir the last 3 years so I very much doubt they are about to retire to their gold plated paradise island.

[black and decker boy]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Of course anyone can take over a highly marketable successful operation run for over 30 years, without paying the previous business owner for it…

 

Just  needs a few million in mainline certified steam locomotives, of the right size for the line, a few million for a few rakes of suitably certified coaches, to the right safety spec, a few million in staffing and admin to process all the required paperwork and set up all the industry requirements…

Then do it all in 3 weeks, whilst not expecting the orr to take 4 months and question any of it... oh and magically have all the staffing ready, available and trained to do it.

 

if wcrc steps back, the whl steam isnt returning as it was, for at least 5 years, if ever, and even then only likely if wcrc shares some of its stock and staff.

 

No one has sufficient stock, staff available to step in, even if lsl has a B1 and a Black5, and decided to cut all there other businesses to service this with their stock…it would still need at minimum a few million £ commitment to get even a basic summer time only once a day working, and I doubt that would even be ready for next year…

 

look at Steam Dreams and their Tuesday night surrey hills, windsor express... as soon as LSL took over it died, as only wcrc had “suitable”* stock, staff and back up locos to the B1… it may just make it back this summer for one night a week over six weeks.

 

They are a business, and incumbent, if they cant make this financially work, then no one else can. They have options, the option they chose, regardless of fault or blame, was to cancel.

 

Whilst they may seek public sympathy and local business reaction, it is equally possible they just get platitudes of “well that was fun whilst it lasted”.

 

People might want wcrc to go away, but theres no one able to replace them… and in the interim nothing prevents Scotrail seeking the slots either, then its game over.

 

* suitable now being unsuitable to the orr.

 

 

 

You miss the fact that the locos used on the Jacobite aren’t WCRC. They hire from Riley.

 

do we think Riley will retire and take his locos off the mainline if WCRC give up or do we think he’ll entertain offers from others with the ability and ambition to continue running in the highlands?

 

CDL fitted stock doesn’t require a reg 5 exemption so no need for ORR. Reg 4 exemption required if renovating a demic though.

 

Early Mk2s would hit the Jacobite target market if painted maroon.

[Cruachan]

40 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Early Mk2s would hit the Jacobite target market if painted maroon.

And indeed have done so each year, since the afternoon service was introduced requiring a second rake.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

I would imagine that IF (and its a big IF) WCRC can show the ORR that they have a costed and timed plan for fitment of CDL then they will get an exemption, just as Belmond, Vintage trains and so on have. But they will have to prove it, not just make vague statements. I'd imagine the ORR would want to see orders for CDL equipment placed and workshop slots booked.

I suspect that the opportunity to do that has gone.

[St Enodoc]

A more balanced article here, from Raildate:

 

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/jacobite-train-suspension-cost-up-32404927

[Gilbert]

A one-liner on a national commercial station news bulletin this morning was reasonably balanced (IMHO) saying there could be a serious effect on local economy if the service ended but citing a regulator with safety concerns over the operation....

[black and decker boy]

Seen reports elsewhere that WCRC appeared on GB News yesterday and have said their exemption is based on NOT fitting CDL and they have provided a risk assessment to that effect!!!!!!!

 

I really do wonder about the mentality of the folk at Carnforth.

 

dont hold your breath if you’ve got tickets for this season on the Jacobite.

[big jim]

17 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Seen reports elsewhere that WCRC appeared on GB News yesterday

 

I really do wonder about the mentality of the folk at Carnforth.

 

(Amended)

you could have finished the first paragraph after the word ‘yesterday’ given the second paragraph 

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

You miss the fact that the locos used on the Jacobite aren’t WCRC. They hire from Riley.

 

do we think Riley will retire and take his locos off the mainline if WCRC give up or do we think he’ll entertain offers from others with the ability and ambition to continue running in the highlands?

 

CDL fitted stock doesn’t require a reg 5 exemption so no need for ORR. Reg 4 exemption required if renovating a demic though.

 

Early Mk2s would hit the Jacobite target market if painted maroon.

Wheres your coaches coming from, and the crews, the paperwork etc ?

Oxley carriage sidings doesnt have many mk2’s these days.

 

if overhauling / reregistering youve not just got £30ks worth of cdl to fit, youve the same in CET toilets, and in a few years need internal handles, maybe hopper windows too… not much change from £150-200k a coach to bring back a wreck, plus the purchase cost, certification, insurance etc..

 

Railtours are being canceled as theres no stock, this operation uses 2 rakes, twice a day for six months, doesnt wcrc swap them mid season too.. so maybe 4 rakes needed, plus spares… so say 26-30 coaches to run a safe operation. (Wcrc has over 100).

 

Then youve got time, who's going to overhaul them, and how long will it take ?… 2-3 years assuming order books have space ?

Then you need a regular maintenace provision.. and a base… go on where are you going to put it ?

 

Meanwhile you need to hire staff, professionals, train them, certify them, route learning, safety etc…

 

Then marketing… lots of it, you need to create a new brand, distinct from the old, and convince people that a dead dog has returned to life, assuming they havent gone on to fill tours with alternative ideas that are waiting to steal that tourist tour space.

 

Sorry but hiring a steam loco is the easy part, unless youve got wcrc on board, or a bunch of coaches hidden in strategic reserve you need time, patience and a ton of cash… hiring 3 black 5’s is the easy part.
 

we can all play fantasy TOC, but model railways is the only way to dream this idea.

 

The barrier to enter is too high, without wcrc, even for lsl. Best chance is adhoc tours or a limited program for the next few years, or you need wcrcs help, and why would they do that ?

Bottom line is all the coaching stock operators have dragged their feet on spending on their stock, not just wcrc… they are all guilty. Unfortunately the clock ran out on wcrc and whl is a very big requirement, without a deal with the ORR this isnt going anywhere… looking online, most operators have been given 5 years from 2023 to do it… i’m surprised its that generous, but now ive read it, i’m surprised wcrc didnt go for that either, that kind of timeline with the facilities they have would probably put them in a stronger position than others.

 

Edited March 22 by adb968008

[Ian Hargrave]

Just a thought. A general election looms later this year and the Scottish vote is likely to be crucial to the result. I just wonder whether or not this might influence events and maybe bring it to a successful ( ? ) conclusion. Time will tell…..

[Covkid]

55 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Why not take a rake of MK2s with CDL and retrofit with opening windows?

 

50 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Probably need to retrofit them with compartments too.

 

The product is the harry potter experience.. not just any old train.

 

I am not totally sure but I think I read somewhere that the majority of seats on the two Jacobite rakes (hitherto) were in open stock, and just one coach of compartments was a premium charge. 

 

Opening picture windows are a clear advantage on scenic lines and behind steam locos, but when WCRC operated the Cambrian Coastline trains back in the oughties they used MK2 pressurevent stock, albeit probably vacuum braked.

 

It is possible to have CDL on vacuum braked vehicles - obviously as that is what Vintage Trains are going to be doing at Tyseley, as I believe their business model retains vacuum brakes. Also the DMUs based at Swanage for operating o nthe mainline to Wareham are fitted with magnetic CDL. 

 

In my view WCR  have taken a gamble (still) and it hasn't worked for them but..........  I am sure I have read somewhere that WCR regard the Jacobite as their most profitable operation .  If it is there is a reason why it appears not to be their highest priority. 

[Stevebr]

It is all very sad that it reached this point.  I have travelled on the train every few years since it began in 1984 , although I haven't been on it since pre-covid, and had intended to use it again this year when I am in the area on holiday in May but given the uncertainty and the cavalier attitude to H&S  in recent times didn't book. I think that WCRC really need to consider their position regarding the rules. Either they want to play on the big railway or not.  

[black and decker boy]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Bottom line is all the coaching stock operators have dragged their feet on spending on their stock, not just wcrc… they are all guilty. Unfortunately the clock ran out on wcrc and whl is a very big requirement, without a deal with the ORR this isnt going anywhere… looking online, most operators have been given 5 years from 2023 to do it… i’m surprised its that generous, but now ive read it, i’m surprised wcrc didnt go for that either, that kind of timeline with the facilities they have would probably put them in a stronger position than others.

 

I’m sorry but that’s simply wrong. Regulation 5 exemptions cover CDL and none last for 5 years.

 

Vintage trains have an exemption until November 2024 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

NYMR exemption isn’t applicable to WCRC

 

SRPS have no exemption and aren’t running until CDL fitted.

 

HDL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

LSL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

Riviera have fitted CDL so need no exemption (they only operate MK2s)

 

LUL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

GSWR (Royal Scotsman) have an exemption to Feb 2025 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

VSOE have an exemption to Feb 2025 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

No other operators have Regulation 5 exemptions for use of hinged door stock.

 

[ruggedpeak]

33 minutes ago, Stevebr said:

 they want to play on the big railway or not.  

they are playing on the railway, that is the problem.

[john new]

4 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

I am not totally sure but I think I read somewhere that the majority of seats on the two Jacobite rakes (hitherto) were in open stock, and just one coach of compartments was a premium charge. 

 

Opening picture windows are a clear advantage on scenic lines and behind steam locos, but when WCRC operated the Cambrian Coastline trains back in the oughties they used MK2 pressurevent stock, albeit probably vacuum braked.

 

It is possible to have CDL on vacuum braked vehicles - obviously as that is what Vintage Trains are going to be doing at Tyseley, as I believe their business model retains vacuum brakes. Also the DMUs based at Swanage for operating o nthe mainline to Wareham are fitted with magnetic CDL. 

 

In my view WCR  have taken a gamble (still) and it hasn't worked for them but..........  I am sure I have read somewhere that WCR regard the Jacobite as their most profitable operation .  If it is there is a reason why it appears not to be their highest priority. 

I understand for commercial income reasons the Swanage DMU option as a regular has been dropped. Extremely informative post, thank you.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

I’m sorry but that’s simply wrong. Regulation 5 exemptions cover CDL and none last for 5 years.

 

Vintage trains have an exemption until November 2024 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

NYMR exemption isn’t applicable to WCRC

 

SRPS have no exemption and aren’t running until CDL fitted.

 

HDL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

LSL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

Riviera have fitted CDL so need no exemption (they only operate MK2s)

 

LUL have fitted CDL so need no exemption

 

GSWR (Royal Scotsman) have an exemption to Feb 2025 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

VSOE have an exemption to Feb 2025 but which has an agreed CDL fitment plan bound into it.

 

No other operators have Regulation 5 exemptions for use of hinged door stock.

 

Sorry yes, I was reading regulation 4.

if no one has yet done a vb cdl with the required electrics, then I assume someone has to authorise it for rail use first.

 

in thats case everyone is screwed come year end, and wcrc has imo no chance of doing that much stock in a year.

 

it is game over once the egg timer runs out and for wcrc it already has.

 

oh well, its quiet this year, its going to be quieter still next year, unless someone can rustle up more mk2 / mk3 air cons… not that much with AB in steam is around in operation to run them.

WHL is a dead kipper without an exemption.
 

 

Edited March 22 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

37 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

if no one has yet done a vb cdl with the required electrics, then I assume someone has to authorise it for rail use first.

 

 

There is no requirement to 'authorise' anything of the sort.

 

Firstly because the ORR have long made it clear that its up to the operator to test and certify systems to be suitable to meet the requirements which the ORR lay down. In effect all the ORR will say to anyone is "YOU provide evidence of the independent and properly evaluated testing YOU have done to show YOUR design meets what the regulations states" which is very different form "Show us what you are doing and we will approve a specific type / combination of equipment"

 

Secondly, as far as the ORR are concerned the exact braking system that a passenger vehicle may be equipped with and the exact type of CDL mechanism used are completely separate things, designed to do different jobs and fall under completely separate categories as far as regulations pertaining to the use of passenger rolling stock 

 

Just because you have air brakes does not mean an air based CDL system has to be used (and on dual braked stock the an electro-magnetic solution is probably more versatile). 

 

The only reason Vac brakes with CDL has not yet been done is nobody has thought it worth wile / been able to design a Vacuum based CDL system - not that it needs some form of 'authorisation'

 

Moreover if someone invented a vacuum based CDL system that could be proved to meet the basic requirement of preventing a passenger from being able to open a locked door (however much they pull / push / bash it) then the ORR would have no issue with such a system being employed.

 

 

Edited March 22 by phil-b259