WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[woodenhead]

@ardbealach If you watch the video above from Nigel Harris, you'll see that the Jacobite does not require any subsidy so it will be making WCRC money, around 8:20 into the vlog.

 

 

[ardbealach]

WCR could still want out - even if it was profitable.  [Alisdair]

[The Johnster]

To be replaced by something that is a more profitable use of their resources, presumably,  But what? And where is this CDL-free profitzone?

 

West Coast have proven over time that they have an embedded cultural reluctance to accept legitimate instruction from the ORR, and are looking increasingly like poorly funded cowboys, while other players in the industry such as Swanage Railway's Wareham service (had it come to fruition) have proved that it is possible to operate slam-door stock with CDL.  There now seems to be a concerted and ill/uninformed media effort to present the withdrawal of the Jacobite, usually described as the 'Harry Potter train', with an emotive picture of it on Glenfinnan Viaduct as Big Brother elf'n'safety gorn mad. 

 

As a good proportion of the Jacobite's passengers are not conversant with the operation of slam-door stock and the provision of stewards to oversee the use of each door is probably not a practicable solution (6 stewards per coach), it is unsafe to operate the train; this in definitly not elf'n'safety gorn mad, it's elf'n'safety doing its job properly and protecting the paying passengers from the highly likely results of their own lack of understanding of the necessity to not open doors on moving trains.  It is now more than a generation since slam-door stock without CDL was used on our railways, and the chances of someone who should be enjoying a family day out tipping themselves out of the train at speed are only increasing as time passes.

 

My opinion now is that West Coast are not fit and proper people to be running trains on main lines, to the extent that I will not travel on their trains for safety reasons, and that the best solution is for the management to be replaced by a more professional regime, starting with a root and branch restructuring.  The shibboleth of 'these trains ran perfectly safely for years without any trouble' won't cut it nowadays, when nobody expects doors to be potentially opened by passengers while the train is moving any more; those background accepted skills have been lost, and it is no use heritage operators, people with an interest in preserving the past and of that mindset, trying to pretend that the current situation doesn't or shouldn't exist and that modern passengers are the problem; they pay their fares and quite rightly expect a duty of care from the operator of the train.  This means things anathematic to old-school enthusiasts, like fixed or barred droplights and CDL.  The railway has changed since 1968 and so must the operators, in line with current regulation and ORR instruction/advice.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, PhilH said:

LSL never has been concerned with making money. Hosking is worth a bit under £400 million, makes oodles from his other ventures and can make losses at LSL to set against other income. If you could have seen the money that was thrown at it when I was there with no hope of getting a return on that it would have made your eyes water.

Thats the concern, what happens when someone says no to him, or he gets bored, or decides on a new hobby, or stops pouring money into the firebox, especially if wcrc has gone too.

imo it maybe better for wcrc to sell up to new management by the sounds of it, but to new money, than existing.

Edited March 30 by adb968008

[PhilH]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Thats the concern, what happens when someone says no to him, or he gets bored ?

Without boring everyone with the detail of it a lot of his stuff is tied up in trusts so if he finishes then at least some of it would carry on. I doubt very much that the motive for that is altruistic, he is a clever man and knows down to the last penny the price of a tin of beans.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, ardbealach said:

So why should WCR spend money on door locking upgrades if they have no intention in continuing the service?  And how much easier is it for them to now formally to withdraw the service and simply blame the ORR for bringing them to the decision of not continuing running the Jacobite. (Alisdair)

If they were wanting to blame the ORR for giving up on the service, they'd already have announced its permanent closure, not merely its cancellation in the short term.

[ardbealach]

Maybe they are hoping that the court of public opinion is on their side, and with its backing,  they can start running their CDL coaches again.  [Alisdair]

[Northmoor]

59 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The shibboleth of 'these trains ran perfectly safely for years without any trouble' won't cut it nowadays, when nobody expects doors to be potentially opened by passengers while the train is moving any more; those background accepted skills have been lost, and it is no use heritage operators, people with an interest in preserving the past and of that mindset, trying to pretend that the current situation doesn't or shouldn't exist and that modern passengers are the problem; they pay their fares and quite rightly expect a duty of care from the operator of the train.  This means things anathematic to old-school enthusiasts, like fixed or barred droplights and CDL.  The railway has changed since 1968 and so must the operators, in line with current regulation and ORR instruction/advice.

This is the myth that needs stamping out.  They weren't perfectly safe; in the 1980s - when very few sliding door trains were in service on BR - about half a dozen or more people died every year from falling out of moving trains or being hit by an opening door while standing on the platform.  British Rail were pretty reluctant to accept that not all these deaths were the result of drink or "mis-adventure"; eventually legislation was introduced to force them to (although not finally implemented until after privatisation).  But to the enthusiasts resistant to the change this doesn't matter, because the victims weren't anyone they knew.

 

Oh and as for stewarding, you don't need six per carriage, you probably need two and possibly only one.  If the centre doors are permanently locked, you only need one person watching two doors at each end and by stepping between the two coaches, they may be able to keep a reasonable eye on (and manage) four doors; after all they're only going to be opening doors on one side of the train.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Since the start of this debacle over door locks, I cannot help but think that WCR just want to be out of the FW to Mallaig Jacobite operation.  They might be making money on the venture - only they have the figures to hand of the profit / loss.  But FW is quite a distance from the WCR Carnforth base.  

If it is a loss making venture, or that they have had enough of running the service, for WCR simply to say publicly that they are giving up the Jacobite operation would bring all manner of opprobrium upon the WCR from the businesses in the Lochaber area who benefit from the service continuing.  

 

We all know that the loss of the income from the Jacobite would be quite dramatic for the area if the service ended.   If WCR made their own decision to cease running, the local Lochaber contempt for WRC would quite unimaginable, more especially if another operator is unwilling to take on the service. 

So why should WCR spend money on door locking upgrades if they have no intention in continuing the service?  And how much easier is it for them to now formally to withdraw the service and simply blame the ORR for bringing them to the decision of not continuing running the Jacobite. (Alisdair)

The facts & figures of the Jacobite were laid before the court as part of the & JR and are also on companies house 

 

the Jacobite brings in around £5.7m Of turnover per year of which around £1m is profit

 

the rest of the business brings in £6m and also generates around £1.4m in profit

 

overall for WCRC limited, turnover is £11.7m, profit before tax £2.4m (accounts to March 2023). It had over £5m cash / assets available as at March 2023.

 

WCRC is not poor by anyone’s yardstick.

 

the court assessed cost of fitting CDL to their entire fleet (the exemption and JR were not about Jacobite) was £1.8m.

 

court judgement is here

https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2023/3338/ewhc_admin_2023_3338.pdf

 

Published accounts here

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/aRSRl5euxY8sZ-MLKSxI_u9qvURQo0bqcuesT811Wq4/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3HSN7LA5F%2F20240330%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240330T173253Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEPH%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIDzCJ6d1rHAlGUbmDTETImQ4lEZzKum9qLZBGrkaCyYrAiEAp0CQaI6viHTcex%2F3cRU7sUN4bpiGZ4%2FDEnIiDw5ysToquwUIGhAFGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDOwZV0e0vHK6CuezeCqYBVnVQUpQVDjgIzZ2D94SBkT1xUqNazvudQ8AcfCSInVh7Sgo81QPIU0uXuu6oONyF7wYDzCKQeor7NJNcE23cQmypjbaqZOV2eJykqvSdTpzWFvMIEEUY8cmeHCw79Xs4Yk0pWskZZduQWHQH7UC39cbuqDoNj%2FRiXJ%2BGWXOEPIDliNkzRwrgbNvwd7YXhaRVUbWQGYLMz3YvC0E0BDl7Vc%2Bq2%2BqeTrh8Lo%2Fm5GaaTLeYyWA4AKt3zHvssyxTtnOzHvYRiSMBnM2X9A7G6tyXy6wzz7Lh%2BrpYgp35tyI4veiuXqc7T%2Fry7vUOO6VQgDRAF2JkS%2FC8Iyw%2BCJnOWkLh8oZttIWB58TlDg12xvaiE3nyWi71P5z8onbVQbdoiuOGUjIx8in6guOOzzpzu0iL5Gjt2ONjxDW5GpJ4T3P%2BiLEGOv9jokzBP6TRjCFBbSAbcZ%2BgvcMSgOEeSrlXb%2BTzzdHy7CJtHndXy9W5wwc%2Bov%2BHg%2F5DtpvEWiO%2FdIL9XdQDYPWy4UgAt1AGw5PXUaHDRc1mrmyDLv4%2BytUHNV6BImygRrWast37zUFeUceYjag73yNVXHnGPEgwgShelqXaNiltAc1e7m4XZotJqwidCXn2coMwPuN34OpmUmwbj8u6EsrauK6bry93UUtLPQQgozc2HNv0B39%2Fq%2BjuqOZeNt2tBuzuXophRyTTCyr72saNyyD4tD6T285ci2HKa%2BZ%2BzwonZfBMxgXzQR6RXT7sj9fVm2UqSa0WynFuHrMNromVuj%2B59nRAfKw2fBTplBH9U6Tbt7YdjzFfo%2BmHacRUG9V6XIuDc5oWCCIgyMP6Uzg4JvnSn633EwA0EfAqOGiN4U%2BLs6vBpBM5H6AiGYbW%2BiCLVvjvl4eq0Mws4ehsAY6sQE9zdR8wlzAGJof8qt6bPgrAPIFHAW%2B7rYNbn6t9JD7GaLTExpLTwirIPaor%2FAgda74c56WluOBuMYHIiVqbCArvHuK7fNMrMynqQo%2F9YYH2PmtL0pyw7SOPQOVj%2FKV9FNusq3wk8%2BcH24dSYNR64L87BqtwOHr4cy%2FmwgWbETZw01XxYtvpBnUjuma3sv%2FY3YaXYnwSfQ%2FT19tdTK%2BDkje%2FLmMb41N9Fv%2FYUr%2BKaOwpOg%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"03066109_aa_2023-12-30.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=9f7783da29ee2298494e0399bef2c0ed28729cf4e770aa90c28abaf54e6045b8

[black and decker boy]

21 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

Maybe they are hoping that the court of public opinion is on their side, and with its backing,  they can start running their CDL coaches again.  [Alisdair]

The general population won’t have heard of the Jacobite or West Coast Railway Company Limited and therefore won’t actually care.

 

Whipping up public opinion about the Jacobite is probably as misplaced as West Coast thinking they are above all other operators and don’t need CDL. It’s in Scotland so won’t sway any of the current government who in reality, won’t be getting any votes from the issue even if they solve it. Holyrood has no power with regards to Safety Regulations.

 

Both parliaments have far greater concerns than a rather rich farmer who doesn’t want to invest in prescribed safety systems for his 1:1 trainset. 

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

Maybe they are hoping that the court of public opinion is on their side, and with its backing,  they can start running their CDL coaches again.  [Alisdair]

The problem with media is its a gamble…

 

if it goes viral the pressure for resolution or some form of intervention grows.

but if it doesnt, youve fired the big guns but only got little smoke.

 

A few weeks ago I thought this might be a good media story, but so far small beans.

 

[MyRule1]

 Picking up a couple of points made in recent posts, sorry about the lack of quotes but using a tablet to reply. This obsession with opening doors on moving trains is not the main issue. Anyone who has spent time with slam door stock, either as guard, passenger or on the platform will know the big issues are: doors opening before the train comes to a halt, passengers attempting to board a train after the right-away has been given, rail tour passengers getting off at station stops which are not part of the public schedule,non railtour passengers trying to get on a railtour, passengers opening doors on the wrong side, doors left on the latch, etc...

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

The facts & figures of the Jacobite were laid before the court as part of the & JR and are also on companies house 

 

the Jacobite brings in around £5.7m Of turnover per year of which around £1m is profit

 

the rest of the business brings in £6m and also generates around £1.4m in profit

 

overall for WCRC limited, turnover is £11.7m, profit before tax £2.4m (accounts to March 2023). It had over £5m cash / assets available as at March 2023.

 

WCRC is not poor by anyone’s yardstick.

 

the court assessed cost of fitting CDL to their entire fleet (the exemption and JR were not about Jacobite) was £1.8m.

 

 

Wcrcs only got the jacobite until year end this year.

other regulations such as CET tanks, internal door handles and non opening windows are already on the horizon.

Who knows how long mk1’s will be allowed at all… the ORR could decide next month thats it, or insist in sliding doors.

 

The £1.8mn figure, when was it based on, and by what assumptions ?… was it based on VB not AB stock, volunteers vs commercial rates, new vs s/h equipment.. theres lots of variables to a number.

 

Theres no guarentees that £1.8mn doesnt become £4mn or £6mn and if they didnt get a renewal in Autumn for Jacobite access it could all be nothing.

tbh I see tons of risk here to wcrc viability. The past is no predictor to the future.
 

Whilst others bleat they must comply, personally I think an exit is more likely…

 

will LSL step in? I’m sure WCRC have done the maths and concluded its a risk worth taking going for broke with this approach instead of taking the mk2’s north.

 

Theres a saying in sales most here would understand…. If the driver sees a train crash coming, hes got nothing to lose by trying anything no matter how desparate because the end is inevitable anyway. The unstoppable force of economics meeting the immovable object of regulation.. it could be messy in the end.

 

This could be what we are seeing… 

 

 

Edited March 30 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

They'll likely succeed with the public opinion part.

 

Outside of the railway industry, I don't see anyone making counter-arguments. ORR doubtless feel it's not their business to get into a public argument; they don't even have grounds for a press release or public statement unless WCRC make an outright accusation.

 

The general public have no idea of the dangers of slam doors. Many of us are old enough to remember their being the norm, and no harm ever happened to us, personally, did it? The numerous injuries and deaths that did occur were not widely reported, and the eventual move away from slam doors was prompted by awareness within British Rail, who commisioned a report from the HSE, not from public pressure or any sort of press campagin.

 

Will the ORR back down? I have no idea, but given the spinelessness of today's politicians, I wouldn't be too surprised to find the ORR being leaned on to come up with some compromise. It's no good pretending that independent regulators are truly independent of political interference, when they are appointed by government ministers.

 

Assuming (I know) the ORR follows the same methodology as the HSE then they won't be doing any backing down.

[adb968008]

 if the economics of 2nd class Jacobite is a poor outlook financially, due to regulation costs, maybe up the game..

 

Change the business from a two a day cheap day return.

 

fit out the Queen of Scots with cdl, and go full up market once a day instead ?

 

Afterall this is the approach of most other mainline steam… i’m sure if LSL step in it wont be with TSOs.

Edited March 30 by adb968008

[Artless Bodger]

I'm surprised that Mk1 carriages are allowed on the mainline at all, given all the slam door /  body on chassis emus were condemned years ago etc. Do the Mk1s in railtour service have any over-riding protection? (Have not noticed any of the interlocking plates or extra vertical bracing on those I used to see at BTM). Mk1s at premium prices on railtours? - no thanks.

 

An employee where I worked (not known to me personally) was fatally injured by being thrown from an emu, the reason was apparently he unlatched the door which was only on the first catch, in order to close it fully, with the train in motion, slipstream opened the door with fatal results.

 

One evening travelling to London on a VEP as we stood at West Malling station the down train (another VEP) entering the other platform had an open door banging along the side of our train. After some discussion between the crews and presumably control, we set off at walking pace, expecting to find a body on the track. Thankfully we did not, but it was a sobering experience.

 

Have also seen a down train leave Guildford with the inward opening vestibule door behind the driver's cab in the middle of 2 units open - so anyone walking through the gangways would be at risk.

 

 

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

The £1.8mn figure, when was it based on, and by what assumptions ?… was it based on VB not AB stock, volunteers vs commercial rates, new vs s/h equipment.. theres lots of variables to a number.

 

Theres no guarentees that £1.8mn doesnt become £4mn or £6mn and if they didnt get a renewal in Autumn for Jacobite access it could all be nothing.

tbh I see tons of risk here to wcrc viability. The past is no predictor to the future.
 

 

You are falling into the trap that this is only about the Jacobite.

 

from the court judgement - suggest you read it, it’s very insightful- ORR assessed CDL at £26,250 per vehicle based on figures from 3 other heritage operators on the mainline.

 

WCRC themselves told the court they assessed it at £30,000 per vehicle.

 

The Jacobite needs what, 12 coaches? WCRC claim to use 130 altogether. They operate up to 4 services per day across the U.K. at speeds up to 100mph.

 

WCRC  currently have 2 full rakes in operation with operable CDL, both are Mk2s.

Edited March 30 by black and decker boy
Typo

[APOLLO]

Wasn't there more than one case many years ago.of Mk1 doors opening on there own on the electrified WCML due to body flexing at high speed, a couple of fatalities occured also.

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

 

 

The Jacobite needs what, 12 coaches? WCRC claim to use 130 altogether. They operate up to 4 services per day across the U.K. at speeds up to 100mph.

If This claim is by the ORR of that no operator has run more than 4 services a day then it is false.

 

A quick look at UKsteam will show WCRC consistently uses 5x rakes in the summer… July 9th 2019 shows 2x Jacobites, a Dalesman with 48151, a Surrey Hills/Windsor with 61306 (when it was still wcrc), a Weymouth with 35018… some of these involve mini trips on top of the main trip.

This style of pattern runs all summer long.

flickr confirms this.

 

Its quite possible that they have had more than 5 with research.

 

Thats ignoring ecs running about before / after to other locations requiring differing rakes to those out that day.

 

It also ignores “special” stock, like mk2 pullmans, Queen of Scots etc. which sees less frequent use.

 

Finally any operator at that scale needs spare coaches.

paragraph 21’s calculations are therefore not correct either.

 

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Edited March 30 by adb968008

[black and decker boy]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If This claim is by the ORR of that no operator has run more than 4 services a day then it is false.

 

A quick look at UKsteam will show WCRC consistently uses 5x rakes in the summer… July 9th 2019 shows 2x Jacobites, a Dalesman with 48151, a Surrey Hills/Windsor with 61306 (when it was still wcrc), a Weymouth with 35018… some of these involve mini trips on top of the main trip.

This style of pattern runs all summer long.

flickr confirms this.

 

Its quite possible that they have had more than 5 with research.

 

Thats ignoring ecs running about before / after to other locations requiring differing rakes to those out that day.

 

It also ignores “special” stock, like mk2 pullmans, Queen of Scots etc. which sees less frequent use.

 

 

 

The statement in the court judgement was from Network Rail not ORR.

 

even 5 services a day equates to a core fleet of around 60 vehicles rather than 130. I don’t think their original exemption even listed 130 vehicles but hey Ho, that seems to be part of the West Coast smoke & mirrors BS

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The statement in the court judgement was from Network Rail not ORR.

 

even 5 services a day equates to a core fleet of around 60 vehicles rather than 130. I don’t think their original exemption even listed 130 vehicles but hey Ho, that seems to be part of the West Coast smoke & mirrors BS

It lists 128.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/nr-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

 

it doesnt change that the claim of 4 is false, and therefore the calculations are inaccurate. It ignores other factors highlighted.

I’m no fan of wcrc but ive no axe to grind either.

 

Ive also scanned that list and tested it, for example Accurascales mk2’s are not listed…they have cdl… so reality is they have more.

 

Given maintenance and overhauls, special coaches etc, it is reasonable to have that many imo.

 

Agreed though right now they are all assets of scrap value if they cannot be used, and that value is lower than the restorative to use value… ignoring whatever else maybe required beyond cdl.

Edited March 30 by adb968008

[black and decker boy]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It lists 128.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/nr-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

 

it doesnt change that the claim of 4 is false, and therefore the calculations are inaccurate. It ignores other factors highlighted.

I’m no fan of wcrc but ive no axe to grind either.

 

Paragraph 77 of the court judgement is what you need to read.

 

WCRC in their exemption submission stated it wanted to run between 1 and 5 services per day. So neither ORR or the Court have ridden roughshod over poor Mr Smith.

 

WCRC estimated cost per vehicle at £30k and a total bill of £3m for the fleet. WCRC had then inflated that to £7m by including lost revenue but the Court struck that out as no evidence was offered by WCRC so as far as the judgement is concerned, £3m for the full fleet is as bad as it gets. (ORR also countered this by saying short exemptions were on offer to give a transitional period to fit the coaches without loss of revenue - WCRC effectively lost this opportunity by not having a plan B ready to go if they lost the JR and seemingly still not having a Plan B 4 months later as they have applied for a new exemption that offers zero CDL fitment)

[black and decker boy]

37 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It lists 128.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/nr-regulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

 

it doesnt change that the claim of 4 is false, and therefore the calculations are inaccurate. It ignores other factors highlighted.

I’m no fan of wcrc but ive no axe to grind either.

 

Ive also scanned that list and tested it, for example Accurascales mk2’s are not listed…they have cdl… so reality is they have more.

 

Given maintenance and overhauls, special coaches etc, it is reasonable to have that many imo.

 

Agreed though right now they are all assets of scrap value if they cannot be used, and that value is lower than the restorative to use value… ignoring whatever else maybe required beyond cdl.

Anything fitted with CDL doesn’t need a Reg 5 exemption.

 

only mark 1 s need a Reg 4 exemption (end pillars and crash-worthiness).

 

WCRC currently operating 2 rakes of MK2s fitted with CDL with no exemptions needed or provided.

 

Other WCRC rakes of MK2s should follow but note that WCRC had stripped some of its MK2s of its BR era CDL so has now had to refit.

 

Vac braked stock is a bit of a red herring as WCRC last year bought all the Riviera Trains mk1 fleet all of which were dual or air only. The second Jacobite rake was formed of MK2s anyway.

 

All of the steam locos used on the Jacobite in recent years have been air brake fitted (all Riley’s).

[DY444]

On 22/03/2024 at 22:56, ruggedpeak said:

Interesting business strategy. Lost the JR to the ORR with a clear decision that the ORR is correct. The Jacobite contract expires this year and they can't run the service at all at present. Genius.

 

And now a petition has started to try and get a safety regulator to change its position on a serious safety issue that has already been examined by a High Court Judge. The petition is pretty weak effort. Worrying but not surprising in the social media age that people think safety regulations should be determined by a petition signed by amateurs. 🤣 WCRC could try and boost their credibility by publicly disowning the petition as an inappropriate way to respond to the High Court decision, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

 

I also hear that Boeing are watching to see if this petiton works in case they can get one to overrturn the FAA restrictions on 737s.....🤪

 

 

 

I would dispute the assertion that the matter in hand is a "serious" safety issue.  A serious safety issue is Wootton Bassett, those unlicensed clowns that spadded at Stafford, NR connecting signal wires back to front at Wingfield, ditto its cowboy, hacked point wiring at Waterloo, Lumo overspeed at Peterborough etc etc.  The low probability of a slam door coming open or being opened on a single set of stock doing a couple of round trips a day in the summer is a safety issue but not a serious one.

 

I am a vehement critic of the ORR because I believe it has done far more harm to the wellbeing of the railways than good.  It has systematically redefined the "Reasonably" from ALARP to something no dictionary would recognise.  I would have much greater sympathy with it in this case if it didn't have such an atrocious record of imposing enormous cost for negligible, and in some cases zero, safety benefit. 

 

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt, the court case did not rule that the ORR was right in insisting that WCRC fit CDL, merely that it had the legal authority to insist that WCRC did.

Edited March 31 by DY444

[black and decker boy]

14 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I would dispute the assertion that the matter in hand is a "serious" safety issue.  A serious safety issue is Wootton Bassett, those unlicensed clowns that spadded at Stafford, NR connecting signal wires back to front at Wingfield, ditto its cowboy, hacked point wiring at Waterloo, Lumo overspeed at Peterborough etc etc.  The low probability of a slam door coming open or being opened on a single set of stock doing a couple of round trips a day in the summer is a safety issue but not a serious one.

 

I am a vehement critic of the ORR because I believe it has done far more harm to the wellbeing of the railways than good.  It has systematically redefined the "Reasonable" from ALARP to something no dictionary would recognise.  I would have much greater sympathy with it in this case if it didn't have such an atrocious record of imposing enormous cost for negligible, and in some cases zero, safety benefit. 

 

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt, the court case did not rule that the ORR was right in insisting that WCRC fit CDL, merely that it had the legal authority to insist that WCRC did.

Again, you fall into the trap that this is just about the Jacobite doing it’s summertime trips to Mallaig.

 

it is in fact about the whole WCRC fleet that operates at up to 100mph on up to 5 services per day on our mainlines U.K. wide.

 

2 recent safety breaches on WCRC doors were noted in the court judgement (neither were Jacobite) plus we know the prohibition notices on last years Jacobite relate to WCRC not following their own safety procedures with regard operation and stewarding of the doors.

 

A door opening at 100mph is a very serious safety hazard, a door opening as a train is moving in a platform is a serious safety hazard. Clearance to lineside structures is permitted to be as low as 150mm nowadays so an open door would strike and do significant damage.

 

ORR have not reinvented the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 which are quite clearly written. The Court agreed that the implementation of those regulations by ORR was legal and proportionate hence finding in favour of ORR.