WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[ruggedpeak]

In other door related news....

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/12/driverless-dlr-train-london-doors-open/

 

(paywall)

 

 

Reportedly the DLR train sped towards Bank apparently. From the passenger comments the train was slow to leave Shadwell then stopped. Then it started again and carried on with the door open. Of course there is no driver or door stewards on the DLR. TfL stated there is a staff member on every train, but as DLR units have no connecting corridor and often work in multiple that's as much use as a chocolate teapot if they are in the other unit. Did anyone push the emergency button, no of course not, they were too busy filming it......

 

I always liked the DLR towards Bank as the tunnel lights reminded me of when the fighters launched in Battlestar Galactica.....

Edited April 12 by ruggedpeak

[black and decker boy]

Good for a laugh

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13300541/amp/save-hogwarts-express-stream-trains-disappearing-health-safety-row.html

 

Although interestingly has a quote from DfT that I’ve not seen before 

 

A Department for Transport spokesman said: 'The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.'

 

i imagine the last 7 words are the most crucial as it’s those that will put off any political intervention 

[pete_mcfarlane]

I like the way the Mail has used a photo of what looks like a Chinese or North Korean train to illustrate that article. 

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

Although interestingly has a quote from DfT that I’ve not seen before 

 

A Department for Transport spokesman said: 'The ORR is the independent rail safety regulator, and it would therefore be inappropriate for the department or ministers to intervene in their decision to refuse a further exemption to West Coast Railways, which was upheld by the High Court.'

 

i imagine the last 7 words are the most crucial as it’s those that will put off any political intervention

Was in the Torygraph yesterday, good to see DfT giving them two fingers!

 

 

[LNER4479]

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/the-jacobite-back-in-service

 

West Coast's own statement would appear to imply that they've found / fettled some additional CDL-fitted stock ...

 

EDIT - apologies as most of that is repeated in the earlier RailAdvent post. For completeness sake, therefore.

Edited April 12 by LNER4479

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/the-jacobite-back-in-service

 

West Coast's own statement would appear to imply that they've found / fettled some additional CDL-fitted stock ...

 

ORR to WCRC "This is all we asked you to do!"

[john new]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

When you think how many years we used these coaches day in day out and thought nothing of it but now people have become so sheltered and basically ueselless  they cant think for themselves and have allowed people who should  know better.  It seems as though the organisations who carry out these witch hunts are representing groups who are totally not in the real world and are constantly looking to make trouble for anyone .Surely  people are able to be safe and be responsible  but we are living in real  nanny state .

I think there are two factors here:

 

1) if it is a daily risk in widespread use you know about it/how to avoid it. Still catches a few but …

2) same risk problem, but rarely experienced by most people nowadays as life has moved on, will catch a higher % of those exposed to it. 

Some risk assessments may invoke over zealous responses (the one’s the press love to mock) but in general the vast majority of Health & Safety reactions do improve safety and work place environments. CDL has grown on me and I have changed my attitude to it, same with window hanging now so much of the network, including heritage lines, is festooned with things like trailing brambles etc. Even back in the day if I was standing at an open drop light my hands would be on the frame part of the coach not the door. My own risk assessment similar to ORR’s = doors are dodgy, ameliorate the risk. 

 

 

Edited April 12 by john new
A typo corrected

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/04/2024 at 20:59, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I wonder what ORR would make of the compartment droplights. As I recall, the window slid down to level with the washbasin cover and you could basically sit with your whole body out of the window.

Yo ucan forget Mk1 sleepers long before you even think about CDL etc.  They are very unlikely to  be made capable of current fire regulations as they lack smoke detection and alarm systems plus if they do catch fire internally they will produce more than enough very nasty gases from the  various materials in them to do for some occupants long before they are even aware there is a fire.

 

I've fired off a letter to the Daily Telegraph to let them know some of what WCRC didn't say.  But I doubt they'll print it because surely they don't want WCRC's lovable steam trains shown up as not even bothering with their own safety mitigations!!

 

Wandering partly off topic zero hours contracts are something of a curate's egg but I have to say that the one I was on in my consultancy days actually pays me a defined benefits final salary pension.   WCRC's problem with such things was (is??) their seemingly total inability to properly manage safety critical staff employed on that basis - as graphically illustrated by the Wootton Bassett SPAD 

[jjb1970]

5 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I like the way the Mail has used a photo of what looks like a Chinese or North Korean train to illustrate that article. 

 

 

 

I approve of this, I will be writing to the Mail to tell them Flying Scotsman in very yesterday and that the modern fashionable young chap about town wants to see pictures of DF4 diesels and SS1 electric locomotives. 

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, john new said:

I think there are two factors here:

 

1) if it is a daily risk in widespread use you know about it/how to avoid it. Still catches a few but …

2) same risk problem, but rarely experienced by most people nowadays as life has moved on, will catch a higher % of those exposed to it. 

Some risk assessments may invoke over zealous responses (the one’s the press love to mock) but in general the vast majority of Health & Safety reactions do improve safety and work place environments. CDL has grown on me and I have changed my attitude to it, same with window hanging now so much of the network, including heritage lines, is festooned with things like trailing brambles etc. Even back in the day if I was standing at an open drop light my hands would be on the frame part of the coach not the door. My own risk assessment similar to ORR’s = doors are dodgy, ameliorate the risk. 

 

 

 

This is what a lot of the elf n'safety gone mad stuff ignores. Put aside the substantive legal and regulatory issues and the demonstrable risks associated with slam door stock, most people today are completely unfamiliar with slam doors and the associated risks. That fundamentally alters the risk profile even for arguments that it was alright in the good old days and safety statistics and analysis be damned. And why should people know about something they've never used and which is an archaic throwback to trains replaced before many people were born? I see a lot of sneering about the youth of today not being able to operate a train door, how many of the critics could operate a horse and cart or other archaic technologies?

[david.hill64]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I've fired off a letter to the Daily Telegraph to let them know some of what WCRC didn't say.  But I doubt they'll print it because surely they don't want WCRC's lovable steam trains shown up as not even bothering with their own safety mitigations!!

 

Good luck with that! I made the mistake on engaging with the online comments. Never received so many downvotes for any point I've made. I had the audacity to suggest that perhaps WCRC was not as innocent as they claimed and that preventing fatalities was a good idea. The top voted post suggested that Brighton beach should be off limits as people might walk into the sea and drown...........

[62613]

1 hour ago, david.hill64 said:

Good luck with that! I made the mistake on engaging with the online comments. Never received so many downvotes for any point I've made. I had the audacity to suggest that perhaps WCRC was not as innocent as they claimed and that preventing fatalities was a good idea. The top voted post suggested that Brighton beach should be off limits as people might walk into the sea and drown...........

Sounds like a good idea to me!😁

Edited April 13 by 62613

[Wheatley]

The comments section of any online newspaper is a good example of why the H&S stuff is needed. A significant number of people really are that stupid. 

[caradoc]

On 10/04/2024 at 12:51, adb968008 said:

Seatbelts protects anyone, whether they were previously standing or not, who decides to use them at an unsafe time or location.

 

And the relevance of that is?

 

[caradoc]

On 10/04/2024 at 12:56, adb968008 said:

seatbelts work, have worked for 7 decades on every single mode of transport, except rail…

 

 

Nonsense, the local buses on which I travel do not, never have had and probably never will have seatbelts. 

 

Trains do not have, and do not require to have, seatbelts, because the frequency of incidents in which they would be of benefit is extremely small, whereas the cost would be extremely high, and therefore unjustifiable. 

 

[gatesheadgeek]

Nor do trams or the London Underground have seatbelts (or any other Metro system). I don’t think anyone would ever think that is practical. London would grind to a halt because the capacity of the underground would be slashed by 80% or more at peak periods.

Edited April 13 by gatesheadgeek
Grammar

[Legend]

20 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Brit15

 I think you’ll find these Anglias aren’t compliant as you can roll down the windows at the front .  Also I don’t think central door locking had been invented yet 

Edited April 13 by Legend

[nightstar.train]

These two trains have popped up, Carnforth to Crainlarich today

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U06380/2024-04-13/detailed

 

Then Crainlarich to Fort William tomorrow. Pathed as a diesel loco trailing 715 tonnes at 60mph. So presumably a diesel hauling a pair of steamers and a rake of Mk2 air-cons. 

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U06381/2024-04-14/detailed

[ruggedpeak]

9 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

Good luck with that! I made the mistake on engaging with the online comments. Never received so many downvotes for any point I've made. I had the audacity to suggest that perhaps WCRC was not as innocent as they claimed and that preventing fatalities was a good idea. The top voted post suggested that Brighton beach should be off limits as people might walk into the sea and drown...........

Well if the sea is so safe why is there a 200 year organisation that does nothing but rescue people at sea, many of whom started the day on a beach but ended up not on it? You'd have thought in between chuntering and posting in the DM comments section they'd be watching TV, where there is even a BBC series about the RNLI on repeat during the daytime.

[rodent279]

7 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

The top voted post suggested that Brighton beach should be off limits as people might walk into the sea and drown...........

The thing is, they do!

[john new]

3 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Nonsense, the local buses on which I travel do not, never have had and probably never will have seatbelts. 

 

Trains do not have, and do not require to have, seatbelts, because the frequency of incidents in which they would be of benefit is extremely small, whereas the cost would be extremely high, and therefore unjustifiable. 

 

Possibly the few that double up as school transport. My memory is that school buses need to have them fitted but I could be wrong.

[rogerzilla]

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Nonsense, the local buses on which I travel do not, never have had and probably never will have seatbelts. 

 

Trains do not have, and do not require to have, seatbelts, because the frequency of incidents in which they would be of benefit is extremely small, whereas the cost would be extremely high, and therefore unjustifiable. 

 

The last time I hired a big lorry (7.5t) it didn't have seatbelts.  When a  vehicle exceeds a certain mass, it isn't going to stop fast enough to throw you through the windscreen.

[black and decker boy]

4 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

These two trains have popped up, Carnforth to Crainlarich today

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U06380/2024-04-13/detailed

 

Then Crainlarich to Fort William tomorrow. Pathed as a diesel loco trailing 715 tonnes at 60mph. So presumably a diesel hauling a pair of steamers and a rake of Mk2 air-cons. 

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U06381/2024-04-14/detailed

The formation posted elsewhere and I’ve copied as written is:

 

47245 leads 45212 5Z12 Jacobite ecs to Crianlarich with support coach 35486, 6000, 6022, 6103, buffet 1860 & 3360. 
 

 

[nightstar.train]

12 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The formation posted elsewhere and I’ve copied as written is:

 

47245 leads 45212 5Z12 Jacobite ecs to Crianlarich with support coach 35486, 6000, 6022, 6103, buffet 1860 & 3360. 
 

 

 

And for those like me who don't have the full Platform 5 pocket book memorised:

45212 is an LMS black 5

35486 is a Mk1 BSK support coach

6000, 6022 and 6103 are all Mk2F SO in maroon

1860 is a Mk1 RMB in maroon. Has this been CDL fitted, or will they use it with the doors locked OOU?

3360 is a Mk2F FO in Pullman umber and cream.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Air condiitoned Mk2fs then. Two questions for those in the know:

1. What will power the air conditioning

2. What's the CDL status of 1860? I've not previously thought about catering vehicles, and 1860 was an RMB, so unless it has been extensively modified, it'll still have plenty of seating.