WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Bucoops]

Golden Age of mainline preserved steam? My rose tinted specs tell me 1988. Mallard, FS and SNG all in full LNER regalia.

 

SNG and (I think) Clan Line taking me from Euston to Grange-over-sands and back (presumably a diesel of some kind at the beginning and end) with a silver service breakfast is something that will be forever embedded in my mind as one of the best days of my life. I was 10.

[woodenhead]

31 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Golden Age of mainline preserved steam? My rose tinted specs tell me 1988. Mallard, FS and SNG all in full LNER regalia.

 

SNG and (I think) Clan Line taking me from Euston to Grange-over-sands and back (presumably a diesel of some kind at the beginning and end) with a silver service breakfast is something that will be forever embedded in my mind as one of the best days of my life. I was 10.

How about this then of it's recent return to the rails, this looks like what a steam engine should look like on the rails

 

[Morello Cherry]

9 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

Gosh, it's being so cheerful that must keep you chaps going.

 

On, and on, and on, and on, and on, and......

 

Yeah, I find it really weird that on a discussion forum dedicated to discussing preservation topics that people would spend their time discussing at length issues affecting one of the biggest operators and preservation in general.

[Matt37268]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Do you really think 6023’s transformation from this..

 

with hundreds of thousands of pounds, thousands of man hours, volunteer efforts and good will, including what was considered impossible in 1985, of casting a new driving wheel

 

to this…

 

was solely done to trundle up and down Didcots track ?

 

It was a perfect storm of failure that 6023’s preservations dream was never realised, and I doubt will ever be.  it was even sized with chimney, bonnet and cab roofs for mainline and preserved line use. 4079 is another failed promise, but that one never made it to the starting gate before giving up.. 6023 did but was blocked on every turn.

 

if one loco sums up how the golden years started to fade, 6023 was it. (You may note i did not include 6024 in my original post, as it already exited before the end of the beginning). 6023 was destined to perform a duty it was denied to do.

But 6023 never worked anything on the mainline after its restoration so how can you count that as being part of a your ‘slow retreat’ comment? 
We may as well start counting the absence of the likes of 4930, 5000, 6000 and 75069 as part of the ‘slow retreat’ from the mainline. 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

But 6023 never worked anything on the mainline after its restoration so how can you count that as being part of a your ‘slow retreat’ comment? 
We may as well start counting the absence of the likes of 4930, 5000, 6000 and 75069 as part of the ‘slow retreat’ from the mainline. 

6023 was all set to go mainline… in ticket overhauled, ready for trials.

Many good people did not live to see it happen, others walked away after doing the work. Its one thing to overhaul a loco, run a mainline ticket and retire it off the mainline, saying its too hard, expensive etc having had a decade or too to enjoy it… To giving 30 years of your life with the same aim, and literally giving up at the gates, in steam, several times and letting the naysayers have it.

 

I think you need more research.

 

 

 

 

The others you mention all left the mainline decades ago, I could have added many in the 2000’s too… 7812, 42968, 76079 but the point your missing is they came and went, and most are under overhaul still. 6023 came, but didnt get out of the gates, and spent a good five years or so waiting… it was supposed to go mainline… had it arrived a few years earlier in a better landscape it would have happened, same too for 4079.. but that wasnt ready before the decision was taken to abandon it, unlike 6023… will of people saying No, for different reasons, ultimately went against it.  Compare it to say to 35006 which was overhauled for preservation only.

 

Thing is in the last decade a large number of loco owners have taken the “fun whilst it lasted” decision and decieded its too hard, expensive to continue. There was a peak, and since a decline, and now were close to back at 1990’s levels of locos with a slide back to 1980’s looking quite likely.

 

I dont think any mainline steam has ever truly been profitable, as the more you run it the unexpected bigger the bills & repairs get. I dont believe wcrc and lsl are exempt from math that either, its just one found a subsidiary set of activities to make it work, the other started with a very big sack of cash and is ok with it spending it, just remember LSL wasnt the first bag of money for mainline preservation  in Crewe, and look how that ended.

Enjoy it whilst you can… ive watched steam fade all over the world, I see the same thing happening here.

 

Edited May 1 by adb968008

[Morello Cherry]

3 hours ago, Matt37268 said:

But 6023 never worked anything on the mainline after its restoration so how can you count that as being part of a your ‘slow retreat’ comment? 
We may as well start counting the absence of the likes of 4930, 5000, 6000 and 75069 as part of the ‘slow retreat’ from the mainline. 

 

There's a wiff of 'in my day this was all fields'

 

Anyway, if anyone really has a craving for steam and the ability to stand by the doors then I recommend a trip to Romania. (Clip from this weekend and older photo) - This is the Sibiu Agnita line.

 

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1543974269513567

 

[Northmoor]

13 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

There's a wiff of 'in my day this was all fields'

 

Anyway, if anyone really has a craving for steam and the ability to stand by the doors then I recommend a trip to Romania. (Clip from this weekend and older photo) - This is the Sibiu Agnita line.

 

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1543974269513567

 

But that sort of thing won't satisfy the vocal complainers about the loss of main line steam in the UK for the following reasons (not necessarily in this order):

• Narrow gauge
• Foreign
• Wrong class of loco
• Right class but wrong member of the class
• Right class, right member of the class but wrong livery

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

But that sort of thing won't satisfy the vocal complainers about the loss of main line steam in the UK for the following reasons (not necessarily in this order):

• Narrow gauge
• Foreign
• Wrong class of loco
• Right class but wrong member of the class
• Right class, right member of the class but wrong livery

Dont forget

 

• Wrong loco on the wrong route

5043 has drawn out a few sniffies in its adventures, especially in the north.

 

and

 

• An industrial

 

You definitely get sniffies on preserved railways about this.

Edited May 1 by adb968008

[rodent279]

25 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Dont forget

 

• Wrong loco on the wrong route

5043 has drawn out a few sniffies in its adventures, especially in the north.

 

and

 

• An industrial

 

You definitely get sniffies on preserved railways about this.

And

Right loco

Right route 

Right livery 

Wrong number (posing as another class member)

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

But that sort of thing won't satisfy the vocal complainers about the loss of main line steam in the UK for the following reasons (not necessarily in this order):

• Right class, right member of the class but wrong livery

 

This is me with Flying Scotsman. I can't get enthused about it whatsoever in BR guise.

[The Stationmaster]

On 30/04/2024 at 21:44, adb968008 said:

It depends what you mean by support.

 

I have a feeling 2007-2012 were mainline steams golden years.

 

London can support more tours than it has, but it was neglected as a market. The DCE to Swanage and Weymouth 3 x a week was onto something, just as an example. Wcrc were looking at putting a turntable in Weymouth.

I also recall plans for a return to Stratford upon avon, and Oxford as a tourist product from Londom, and regular steam to Kyle from Inverness.

This wasnt down to lack of demand.

The decline started after Wootton Bassett, its never recovered. 

Its becoming is more about a higher end business model, rather than an enthusiast support base. The locos are the casualties and the tour market for the exclusive, as the costs have risen not because demand fell. At some point mainline steam will be a once in a lifetime opportunity ss it becomes too expensive.

 Saturday May 11th puts three steam locos into the Capital on three different tours (Actually 4 tours if you count 86259 on the CME) , enjoy it whilst it lasts, as its gone from a routine summer event, to an almost biennial, indeed I am approaching as most likely the last time 4 tours trapse London in the same day… 5 when the 33 comes on Sunday..

Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

 

 

 

 

Don't forget that lots of pathing opportunities which once existed for steam specials simply don't exist any more especially in the vicinity of London.  For example the Liz Line has killed most of the steam pathing opportunities from Padd.

 

The other thing - which some of us coud see coming a good while back - is the issue of costs against revenue.  The market had to move upwards to bring in higher fares by offering dining and 'Pullman style' dining because the majority of enthusiasts would rather spend their money on photoraphing trains instead of paying to travel on them.  But the premium market, even in the good times economically, is only ever going to be a certain size and won't necessarily support as many tours as it once did.

 

Costs have increased for numerous reasons many of them accidents of history when it comes. to crewing or the result of political decisions when it comes to coal supply and finding decent quality coal (Russia for example was at one time a good source of pretty good quality coal for steam working).  Add in ageing vehicles with increasing maintenance costs let alone updating safety features and you are in the classic double edged situation of rising costs vs shrinking market driving higher fares which further shrink the market.   The only thing which amazes me is that it has lasted as long as it has to the extent which it has.

 

Som emarkets might well remain reasonably bouyant but thewider market is simply not as good as it was.

[adb968008]

17 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

This is me with Flying Scotsman. I can't get enthused about it whatsoever in BR guise.

Give it a coal rail tender in BR green 1950’s running as a class mate on Gresleys from King cross, would you still be unenthused ?

 

😀

[Bucoops]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Give it a coal rail tender in BR green 1950’s running as a class mate on Gresleys from King cross, would you still be unenthused ?

 

😀

 

Yup.

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Costs have increased for numerous reasons many of them accidents of history when it comes. to crewing or the result of political decisions when it comes to coal supply and finding decent quality coal (Russia for example was at one time a good source of pretty good quality coal for steam working).  Add in ageing vehicles with increasing maintenance costs let alone updating safety features and you are in the classic double edged situation of rising costs vs shrinking market driving higher fares which further shrink the market.   The only thing which amazes me is that it has lasted as long as it has to the extent which it has.

I completely understand and it's not just for steam haulage Mike.

 

Back in the mid-late 90s I went on a few of HRT's "Merrymaker" tours.  One repeated itinerary was Kings X - Newcastle - Carlisle - Leeds - York (reverse) - Kings Cross; in 1996/7 this was £19.50 in Standard although it quickly went up to £22-24 (still unbelievably cheap per mile).  In real terms that fare should now be about £60, but equivalent tours would cost me over £100, so fares have gone up by 65%.  I won't criticise HRT or other operators for charging what the market will bear; it's non-essential travel but the days of cheap railtours are gone forever.  Pile it high and sell it cheap doesn't work when you can't build the pile high enough.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Yup.

Hard sell there.

 

[5944]

On 01/05/2024 at 16:48, adb968008 said:

6023 was all set to go mainline… in ticket overhauled, ready for trials.

Many good people did not live to see it happen, others walked away after doing the work. Its one thing to overhaul a loco, run a mainline ticket and retire it off the mainline, saying its too hard, expensive etc having had a decade or too to enjoy it… To giving 30 years of your life with the same aim, and literally giving up at the gates, in steam, several times and letting the naysayers have it.

 

I think you need more research.

 

 

 

 

The others you mention all left the mainline decades ago, I could have added many in the 2000’s too… 7812, 42968, 76079 but the point your missing is they came and went, and most are under overhaul still. 6023 came, but didnt get out of the gates, and spent a good five years or so waiting… it was supposed to go mainline… had it arrived a few years earlier in a better landscape it would have happened, same too for 4079.. but that wasnt ready before the decision was taken to abandon it, unlike 6023… will of people saying No, for different reasons, ultimately went against it.  Compare it to say to 35006 which was overhauled for preservation only.

 

Thing is in the last decade a large number of loco owners have taken the “fun whilst it lasted” decision and decieded its too hard, expensive to continue. There was a peak, and since a decline, and now were close to back at 1990’s levels of locos with a slide back to 1980’s looking quite likely.

 

I dont think any mainline steam has ever truly been profitable, as the more you run it the unexpected bigger the bills & repairs get. I dont believe wcrc and lsl are exempt from math that either, its just one found a subsidiary set of activities to make it work, the other started with a very big sack of cash and is ok with it spending it, just remember LSL wasnt the first bag of money for mainline preservation  in Crewe, and look how that ended.

Enjoy it whilst you can… ive watched steam fade all over the world, I see the same thing happening here.

 

6023 on the mainline would've been interesting, for the simple reason it was such a hungry and thirsty loco, it would've been virtually useless. When first overhauled, before the new blastpipe was fitted, it was using about 3000 gallons of water on a 26-mile round trip on the Mid Norfolk, not exactly a mountainous line. Even after the new blastpipe was fitted, it was still never that good, barely being able to complete a round trip on NYMR or WSR without needing to be topped up.

 

Yes, slow, stop-start preserved line running is inefficient, but for a loco that hadn't done a huge amount of mileage, the front end was very worn. 2999 isn't much better by all accounts - lots of potential but loads of little faults with it. 

[adb968008]

21 minutes ago, 5944 said:

6023 on the mainline would've been interesting, for the simple reason it was such a hungry and thirsty loco, it would've been virtually useless. When first overhauled, before the new blastpipe was fitted, it was using about 3000 gallons of water on a 26-mile round trip on the Mid Norfolk, not exactly a mountainous line. Even after the new blastpipe was fitted, it was still never that good, barely being able to complete a round trip on NYMR or WSR without needing to be topped up.

 

Yes, slow, stop-start preserved line running is inefficient, but for a loco that hadn't done a huge amount of mileage, the front end was very worn. 2999 isn't much better by all accounts - lots of potential but loads of little faults with it. 

6100 was the same at Llangollen, couldnt even do a round trip without water top up.

 

clearly a technical issue, but obviously solvable.

But I suspect we will never know.

Edited May 3 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hard sell there.

 

Aye.

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

6100 was the same at Llangollen, couldnt even do a round trip without water top up.

 

clearly a technical issue, but obviously solvable.

But I suspect we will never know.

 

A case for bringing back water troughs on the main line........?

 

[adb968008]

47 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

A case for bringing back water troughs on the main line........?

 

Seasonally in parts of the country they seem to be coming back in a natural way quite regularly.

Edited May 3 by adb968008

[Goodnight Sweetheart]

On 01/05/2024 at 11:36, Matt37268 said:

But 6023 never worked anything on the mainline after its restoration so how can you count that as being part of a your ‘slow retreat’ comment? 
We may as well start counting the absence of the likes of 4930, 5000, 6000 and 75069 as part of the ‘slow retreat’ from the mainline. 

It was towed in light steam into Paddington, and OOC.

[stewartingram]

8 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

A case for bringing back water troughs on the heritage line........?

 

There,I've amended it for you.

[Matt37268]

18 minutes ago, Goodnight Sweetheart said:

It was towed in light steam into Paddington, and OOC.

I did mention that, I was trying to make the point it didn’t work anything with fare paying customers behind it. 

[Morello Cherry]

Here is another of those woke baby millennials 'elf 'n safety freaks complaining about the sort thing that we used to deal with in ease in our day. Needs to grow up and start taking responsibility. I blame the parents myself.

 

Minding the gap: 'It's a scandal, it's a death trap'

 

A candidate for this

[BoD]

21 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Here is another of those woke baby millennials 'elf 'n safety freaks complaining about the sort thing that we used to deal with in ease in our day. Needs to grow up and start taking responsibility. I blame the parents myself.

 

Minding the gap: 'It's a scandal, it's a death trap'

 

A candidate for this

Doesn’t look very woke baby millennial to me.

Not quite sure what it has to do with WCRC’s battle with the ORR