Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[phil-b259]

 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

But - repeat - what Customs do at Eurostar terminals is down to the country concerned and the way Customs worked at Waterloo and - certainly in terms of what you actually see - the way they work at St Pancras is no different from what you see at  numerous other points of entry to the UK.  The facilities they have are - unless things have changed a lot - very much what they say they need to do their job effectively

 

 

I disagree - routine customs checks at Waterloo / St Pancras are only necessary because of the stupid little Englander mentality which saw the UK refuse to join the Schgengen area and latterly leave the EU. I don't care what HMRC say - as a Government body of course they are going to say they are necessary, it helps make the Government look 'tough' on border policies and pacify the 'anti-foreigner' sections of the electorate / press). Its no different to Network Rail coming out with stuff which supports the DfTs stance rather than a rational analysis of the situation....

 

Besides, until recently the UK / France / Belgian border was between member states and as such the justification for routine checks would have been minimal (even with our pig headed decision to stay outside the Schengen area).

 

I also note that dispute the UKs decision to leave the block the French / Belgians haven't seen fit to erect large customs processing facilities at their ends of the Eurostar operation and dismissing that as of no relevance is not a  remotely acceptable answer to the question as to why the UK feels so threatened it needs to act differently.

 

Airports are a completely different situation because most of them cater for travellers from both inside and outside the EU (not to mention domestic aviation) which means that historically speaking the customs checks will vary and thus more extensive facilities were justified and its simplifies processing if one facility.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

So if you don't like it take it up with them, or your MP, instead of repeating it ad infinitum on here because whatever you say here is unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on the workings of HMRC.

 

Given the xenophobic anti-foreigner sentiment present in the country right now (aided and abetted by certain sections of the media / tiresome ***** like NF) I doubt it would have any effect

 

However, I am aware that these sort of comments are verging into Politics - and that could have unfortunate consequences for this thread. As such I think respectfully 'agreeing to disagree' is probably the best stance to take on this thread.

 

 

[phil-b259]

18 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

You could easily turn that on its head.

If all other ports of entry into France, from outside of the Schengen area, are covered by more conventional customs arrangements, why have the French left such a gaping hole for arrivals via the Channel Tunnel and Eurostar?

 

 

True - though at the time the Channel tunnel was built nobody really believe the UK would actually leave the block - hence no provision was made for duty free shops at the Eurotunnel terminals and when the decision to end duty free shopping within the EU was put back a couple of years after much lobbying by the ferry companies some rather add hoc temporary arrangements had to be installed for a couple of years to massively expand the shopping facilities (which were horrendously overcrowded when the shuttle service opened for business) until duty free shopping ended.

 

As such had UK customs policy been different then you could have had a 'gaping hole' at both ends once the 2016 vote results came in, not just at one end.

 

Although if into conspiracy theories I guess you could also say the UK Government were always afraid they would be forced to leave the EU and as such built in a contingency for that eventuality.

 

18 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Are they the only EU member state to have allowed such a loophole and could that be considered incompetent?

 

 

No - because the Belgians also lack extensive customs facilities. In fact last year my train from London (which was a service to Amsterdam just pulled into one of the regular platforms at Brussels Midi allowing us to alight and enter the station concourse (or catch a train from the adjacent platform face had we wished) with no checks whatsoever.

 

I'm not sure of the situation in Amsterdam because IIRC those services started after the Brexit vote but it wouldn't surprise me if there were no exit checks made there too.

 

So thats 2 or 3 EU nations who don't have a problem with intelligence based checks (simply swooping on persons of interest) rather than making everyone march through a customs hall... and none of them seem to have had significant problems as a result.

Edited August 14, 2023 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

Dutch customs is extremely intensive for non-EU flights.

Just try arriving at Schiphol from “take your pick” of South American direct flights.

Given the sub culture in Amsterdam and both it and Rotterdams gateway to europe for illicit goods you’d soon understand why.

even KLM cabin crew arent exempt from it.

 

Arriving at Amsterdam Central they take no prisoners either, fare evasion, illegal activity, wanted people etc.. Its no push over that station, even for locals on local services. It has a very tough front at the gateline and ive seen plenty of occasions where its needed there too. Its one of my least favourite stations to arrive at… Frankfurt isnt much better but the authorities there are quite hands off, but really think they need more presence. These are two stations where I doubt I would like to work at an evening on a weekend… Makes Manchester Piccadilly plat 13/14 look tame.

My last occasion of Dutch eurostar arrival was relatively hands off.. just walked off the eurostar dedicated platform, past a man with a dog and onto the usual gateline security, staff, police, maphia, drunks, homeless, wasters, bedazzled back packers ranging from first timers expecting loose women and drugs at the gate down to the frazzled who smell like theyve done it for the last 20 years, and the various english/scottish stag do’s mankini wearing beer bellies etc just waiting to get outside..

 

Theres plenty nicer places in Holland, and Eurostar security is the least of issues.

Edited August 13, 2023 by adb968008

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

I disagree - routine customs checks at Waterloo / St Pancras are only necessary because of the stupid little Englander mentality which saw the UK refuse to join the Schgengen area and latterly leave the EU. I don't care what HMRC say - as a Government body of course they are going to say they are necessary, it helps make the Government look 'tough' on border policies and pacify the 'anti-foreigner' sections of the electorate / press). Its no different to Network Rail coming out with stuff which supports the DfTs stance rather than a rational analysis of the situation....

 

Besides, until recently the UK / France / Belgian border was between member states and as such the justification for routine checks would have been minimal (even with our pig headed decision to stay outside the Schengen area).

 

I also note that dispute the UKs decision to leave the block the French / Belgians haven't seen fit to erect large customs processing facilities at their ends of the Eurostar operation and dismissing that as of no relevance is not a  remotely acceptable answer to the question as to why the UK feels so threatened it needs to act differently.

 

Airports are a completely different situation because most of them cater for travellers from both inside and outside the EU (not to mention domestic aviation) which means that historically speaking the customs checks will vary and thus more extensive facilities were justified and its simplifies processing if one facility.

 

 

 

Given the xenophobic anti-foreigner sentiment present in the country right now (aided and abetted by certain sections of the media / tiresome ***** like NF) I doubt it would have any effect

 

However, I am aware that these sort of comments are verging into Politics - and that could have unfortunate consequences for this thread. As such I think respectfully 'agreeing to disagree' is probably the best stance to take on this thread.

 

 

 

 

British customs acts no different to any other customs in Europe or the world. Schengen is an agreement of people not goods and the EU is a free trade area. Neither of which do we belong to

 

All European countries treat international trade exactly the same as the UK and in fact the UK work with their partners in Europe against against organised crime.

 

Customs has nothing to do with a persons nationality

 

You are the one that is xenophobic I have seen nothing in this thread to prove your statements,  and in other postings using the term "little Englander" is totally disrespectful

 

I have no issues in the checks carried out by French Immigration, customs or tunnel security, I will be a guest of the French and must accept their laws and rules that they use and apply

 

Likewise I also respect the customs rules the UK apply to all who enter the country, especially where drugs importation are concerned, its about time the residents of the UK took more notice of the UK laws, and all rule breakers should be dealt with appropriately

 

From what I can see your gripe is about free movement, we all have a duty to adhere to the rules, whether it be illicit goods or illegal travel (not just migration) and sadly more drugs flow into this country than out, as seemingly there are far easier routes into Europe than from the UK. Blame the criminals, not the governments.

 

But none of this applies to the topic "Competitor to Eurostar"  It may well be you could positively add to the thread but please leave your politics off this thread

[fulton]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 

British customs acts no different to any other customs in Europe or the world. 

Even within the EU there are checks, on the Belgium/French border, on the E40 there was a temporary set up which has now been rebuilt as a more permanent set up, I have been stopped there and my van searched, really looking for stowaways, recently travelling from Poland to Germany, German customs had a temporary set up doing random checks, I did not get stopped but did get a very hard looking at, I suppose being a UK registered van.

As to Eurostar I think a competitor is pure fantasy, good for us to speculate and huff and puff, but there is no economic case for it, if it did happen it would be like a new budget airline, minimal investment, leased trains and infrastructure, staff on temporary contracts, with funding for, say six months, if no profit then it closes down.

[hayfield]

Fulton

 

A very interesting insight

 

Certainly Eurostar has to complete with both air and coach travel. As for rail Eurostar seem not to be using their maximum allocation plus the last trains are between 8 and 9 pm so perhaps overnight longer distance trains could be an option ?

 

I think its more of a political thing in the EU as many companies have large state holdings

 

Given the western companies are going full steam on net zero as far as emissions are concerned short distance air travel could be at risk

 

I think I have read that one of the areas of concern is the speed difference between Le shuttle and Eurostar though in the tunnel Wicki says there is only 20 kph between them

It seems Le Shuttle has between 6 & 11 departures per hour. Like all things where there is a will there is a way

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

(snipped)

 

I think I have read that one of the areas of concern is the speed difference between Le shuttle and Eurostar though in the tunnel Wicki says there is only 20 kph between them

It seems Le Shuttle has between 6 & 11 departures per hour. Like all things where there is a will there is a way

Eurotunnel works on a system of what are termed 'Standard Paths' for the use of Tunnel capacity.

 

A Eurostar running at its present, and long established, speed through the Tunnel would 'consume' two Sandard Paths.  In. other words it would use twice as much capacity as a Shuttle.

 

This is why the Eurostar paths have always been grouped in pairs  (although the use of both paths in a pair only happens relatively infrequently but it is needed at (Eurostar) peak times to achieve the capacity it requires.  The advantage of the two train flights is that between them they only 'consume' a total  of three Standard Paths instead of the four which would be used if the Eurostars were not flighted.

 

That is the simple part of things because the pathing and use of flights is also part of the Usage Agreement between Eurotunnel and the 'national railways' (as they were when the agreement was negotiated).   A core part of that agreement sets out what has to happen when total capacity demand for paths reaches a certain level and at that point the Eurostar paths would be 'domesticated' and train speed reduced to leave Eurostar using one path per train, irrespective of flighting.  However there is a counter to that in the agreement which effectively requires Eurotunnel to first seek a more sophisticated method of signalling in order to improve capacity before going down the path of Eurostar domestication.   How much of that original agreement still appliesI don't know but I'd be surprised if SNCF have been prepared to let it slip to Eurostar's disadvantage.  And of course the Usage agreement also deals with how much Eurostar has to pay in order to use the Tunnel.

 

I don't know who came up with it (it sounds a bit French in some respects) but the Standard Path idea as a way of measuring capacity is a brilliant idea because it reduces every train to a measurable amount of capacity use and therefore a measurable amount of cost.  And of course if you can do that with it it might also affect the cost ofa Tunnel transit for any other putative international passenger train operator.

[hayfield]

10 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Eurotunnel works on a system of what are termed 'Standard Paths' for the use of Tunnel capacity.

 

A Eurostar running at its present, and long established, speed through the Tunnel would 'consume' two Sandard Paths.  In. other words it would use twice as much capacity as a Shuttle.

 

This is why the Eurostar paths have always been grouped in pairs  (although the use of both paths in a pair only happens relatively infrequently but it is needed at (Eurostar) peak times to achieve the capacity it requires.  The advantage of the two train flights is that between them they only 'consume' a total  of three Standard Paths instead of the four which would be used if the Eurostars were not flighted.

 

That is the simple part of things because the pathing and use of flights is also part of the Usage Agreement between Eurotunnel and the 'national railways' (as they were when the agreement was negotiated).   A core part of that agreement sets out what has to happen when total capacity demand for paths reaches a certain level and at that point the Eurostar paths would be 'domesticated' and train speed reduced to leave Eurostar using one path per train, irrespective of flighting.  However there is a counter to that in the agreement which effectively requires Eurotunnel to first seek a more sophisticated method of signalling in order to improve capacity before going down the path of Eurostar domestication.   How much of that original agreement still appliesI don't know but I'd be surprised if SNCF have been prepared to let it slip to Eurostar's disadvantage.  And of course the Usage agreement also deals with how much Eurostar has to pay in order to use the Tunnel.

 

I don't know who came up with it (it sounds a bit French in some respects) but the Standard Path idea as a way of measuring capacity is a brilliant idea because it reduces every train to a measurable amount of capacity use and therefore a measurable amount of cost.  And of course if you can do that with it it might also affect the cost ofa Tunnel transit for any other putative international passenger train operator.

 

 So in theory as most paths are single trains there is additional space available ?

 

The last Eurostar service is 9pm, I assume there is room for additional services overnight ? or is it used for freight ?

[adanapress]

With a Dutch friend I once stood in the large (and not very well kept) garden of a  rather upmarket Dutch restaurant, in the garden was a small spring and a tiny stream running from it maybe 4 inches wide.  This side was Dutch and the other was Belgium.   I remember thinking how silly the whole border business was.  Mind you the Dutch, on the weekends long ago, used to drive down to a Belgian enclave to buy butter  Enclave?  look it up -  Baarle-Nassau etc etc.

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, adanapress said:

 This side was Dutch and the other was Belgium.   I remember thinking how silly the whole border business was. 

Try that conversation with someone in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall… or Ukraine.

 

For that matter try moving your garden fence into the neighbours and telling them that.

 

Those “silly” Belgium borders are created by war and people lost lives for them. The whole EU project is about respecting those borders, and building integration between peoples to prevent war and build trade.

Edited August 14, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

 So in theory as most paths are single trains there is additional space available ?

 

The last Eurostar service is 9pm, I assume there is room for additional services overnight ? or is it used for freight ?

Overnight is real problem territory - ior rather it definitely used to be and it still might be the same.  Eurotunnel need to carry out maintenance and their plan is based on closing - usually - one Tunnel 'interval at a time.  There are basically three Tunnrel intervals in each running tunnel  (we'll forget the situation of the additional trailing crossover in the interval at the UK end).

 

So on different nights different intervals are closed and whenever an interval is closed the adjacent running tunnel interval becomes a single line so the timetable has to take account of that.  But the single lines will - over the course of time be in three different places so you need three different timetables for the tunnel itself.  If, say.  you want to keep as consistent as possible the time at which a train will leave the tunne that can mean you have three different times at which the train will enter the tunnel and your end-to-end timetable has to take account of that without altering any station departure or arrival times.  So the train could stand around a bit longer than it needs to for the purposes before entering, or after exiting, the tunnel.

 

The 'other purposes' is attaching another lco to teh rear ofa loco haulerd trains befotre it enters the tunnel and taking it off the rear after the train has left the tunnel.  plus at the French end there will of necessity be aloco change anyway unless you have some sort of multi system capable loco which could work on through.  The next trick is to keep to a minimum the number of additional locos you need to act as the tail-end-charlie.  So that can create further complexity in putting together a trainplan.

 

Things would no doubt be better now than they were in ENS days because long distance cross border loco working is now possible.  For example the London Amsterdam and London Frankfurt ENS trains each had four stops solr ely for loco purposes during their journey as they changed at each of the three national border plus they needed to have the second loco on the rear added for the working through the Tunnel itself and that had to be done purely for the section through the Tunnel because there were insufficient Class 92s to work to/from London on the rear of every train.

 

So ideally a night train would go through the Tunnel before or after the engineering closures but you also need to satisfy commercial objectives for departure and arrival times and taht wouldn't always fit..  and you either need suitable sleeping car stock or you use a Tunnel compatible ordinary train  - asEurostar have done  in the past.

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 ......The last Eurostar service is 9pm, I assume there is room for additional services overnight ? or is it used for freight ?

 

The last train from St Pancras to Paris, leaves at 8.01 pm getting into Gare Du Nord at 11.17 pm.

At that time of night, you might want armed bodyguards to meet and escort you, when you arrive.

I doubt any later departure will be particularly appealing to many.

 

 

.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The last train from St Pancras to Paris, leaves at 8.01 pm getting into Gare Du Nord at 11.17 pm.

At that time of night, you might want armed bodyguards to meet and escort you, when you arrive.

I doubt any later departure will be particularly appealing to many.

 

 

.

I’ll take Gare du Nord over Amsterdam Centrale, from personal experience at the witching hours.

 

[hayfield]

9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The last train from St Pancras to Paris, leaves at 8.01 pm getting into Gare Du Nord at 11.17 pm.

At that time of night, you might want armed bodyguards to meet and escort you, when you arrive.

I doubt any later departure will be particularly appealing to many.

 

 

.

 

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’ll take Gare du Nord over Amsterdam Centrale, from personal experience at the witching hours.

 

 

And there are some on here who seemingly take pleasure in slagging off St Pancras !!!, Still this does not move the thread on from its original topic

 

I was think about long distance trains using the European network overnight

[Bernard Lamb]

9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The last train from St Pancras to Paris, leaves at 8.01 pm getting into Gare Du Nord at 11.17 pm.

At that time of night, you might want armed bodyguards to meet and escort you, when you arrive.

I doubt any later departure will be particularly appealing to many.

 

 

.

Back in the 1960s if you arrived at that time of night the police would see that you got in a taxi if you had an hotel booking and would actually take you to an hotel if you did not. It was considereed to be too dangerous to allow people to walk out of the station. 

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’ll take Gare du Nord over Amsterdam Centrale, from personal experience at the witching hours.

 

For some real frights you ought (not) to try Bruxelles Midi and leve by the exit on the Eurostar platforms side - but not after dark unless you're mob handed.  It was the shortest route to the hotel we used for Eurostar traincrew overnight. (not a bad hotel as it happens) but in the end we had to go elsewhere because the crews refused to walk to it from the station.  Midi is not in a particularly nice area full stop.

 

The big problem with the Gare du Nord used to be theh shortcut route from there to the Gare de L'Est and that could be pretty worrying at times in broad daylight although the longer route isn't too bad as the streets are quite busy even late at night. But leaving the Gare du Nord I think a lot depends on which way you're heading.

 

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I was think about long distance trains using the European network overnight

I think a lot deoends on where you are ging and, possibly, why you're going there.  Some of ten current European overnight routs that have been recently created or reintroduced are in some respects experimental using older stock which had otherwise been stood around doing nothing.  

 

Most of the European networks went off the idea of sleeper services because they introduced much quicker daytime journeys and the overnight market drifted away to the daytime trains..   Wj hat remains to be seen is to what extent some of teh reintroductions will last and whether there is solid overnight market on all the likely routes.

 

In the end ENS reckoned the most likely to there routes to be viable would be London -Frankfurt  with London Amsterdam in second place provided it could capture the 'bargain fares' (seated passenger) market and make money out of it.  The UK end 'regional' night services were no more than a commercial disaster waiting to happen.  After all who in their right mind would want to join a train leaving Plymouth at 18.00 in order to be in Paris not long before 10.00 the following morning?   That is one of the problems any overmnight train will face - getting people to where they want to get at an acceptable time.

 

Sleeper trains make a lot of sense if you adopt my son's approach to travel and use a sleeper as part of a longer journey in order to save time - as he regularly does when returning from his favoured holiday spot in Croatia (this time he went both out and back by train).  But probably the vast majority of holiday makers want to get 'there' within a few hours and are prepared to accept being jammed in an aircraft with no leg or elbow room in order to do it.  But that is the sort of market sleeper trains have to crack because the business travel element alone won't be enough

[Bernard Lamb]

The last time I was in Paris, April 2022, we were based near Place de Clichy. The best way from Gare du Nord was to walk up to La Chappelle and take the metro from there. We visited people who lived very close to the Gare du Nord so did this trip several times, We never experienced any problem even late at night. However pre covid we were staying near St Denis and there was a large camp under the ring road. The residents would not cause any trouble, as if they did so the authorities would soon smash a few heads, and they all knew that. However just in case the odd person was high and out of control a trusty would usually be on hand to walk you through the underpass. Not a good area. but far less dodgy than back in the 60s. 

Bernard

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

For some real frights you ought (not) to try Bruxelles Midi and leve by the exit on the Eurostar platforms side - but not after dark unless you're mob handed.  It was the shortest route to the hotel we used for Eurostar traincrew overnight. (not a bad hotel as it happens) but in the end we had to go elsewhere because the crews refused to walk to it from the station.  Midi is not in a particularly nice area full stop.

Ah… try Bruxelles Nord, Rue D’Aershot exit.. if you were feeling tired when you arrived, your eyes will soon liven up!

 

You dont even need to go there, Google maps will do it !

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/08/2023 at 20:56, adb968008 said:

Ah… try Bruxelles Nord, Rue D’Aershot exit.. if you were feeling tired when you arrived, your eyes will soon liven up!

 

You dont even need to go there, Google maps will do it !

 

 

As one of my work colleagues (our Driver Manager) used to say - 'You should always stop at a red light'

[Neil]

On 11/08/2023 at 14:46, Nick C said:

A lot of the discussion here stems from how St Pancras and Gare Du Nord don't have capacity for more trains - but why are we still wedded to the City-Centre-to-City-Centre approach? A substantial proportion of passengers won't be going London to Paris, but "somewhere in UK" to "somewhere in France/Europe" -.....

 

That sounds rather like the case for the regional Eurostar. I'd be very happy if I could get on a direct train to the continent at Birmingham or Wolverhampton and I dare say others would like to be able to travel from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle or Leeds. Sadly, despite 'levelling up'  I doubt that this is anywhere near likely. Incidentally the first Eurostar I went on was from York to Doncaster on a day out with my daughter. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 20/08/2023 at 15:48, Neil said:

 

That sounds rather like the case for the regional Eurostar. I'd be very happy if I could get on a direct train to the continent at Birmingham or Wolverhampton and I dare say others would like to be able to travel from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle or Leeds. Sadly, despite 'levelling up'  I doubt that this is anywhere near likely. Incidentally the first Eurostar I went on was from York to Doncaster on a day out with my daughter. 

While it would i undoubtedly be quicker now that CTRL/HS1 is available the big problem  for Regional Eurostar - which helped to kill it literally a few weeks before 'passenger experience' running commenced - was the extended journey time.   And by then with cheap air travel coming very much to the fore the market was realised to be rapidly vanishing.

 

Train would undoubtedly be prefeered by many people but there comes - in Britain anyway - a sort of tipping point where journey time saving is the preference for many people leaving not so many tt who prefer the train.  The other problem is how big would teh train haver to be to provide a reasonable return on,  say, 45% load factor ?  I think it might work over shorter distances where journey time would be competitive but even Birmingham could be unattractive to business travellers and the leisure market might not work so well from there.

 

It might be very different with a fast link from other mainlines to CTRL/HS1but the costs of creating that wouldn't stand a chance in today's Britain

[burgundy]

I spent a wet afternoon recently, trying to plan a journey from Bristol to Malaga by rail. I understood that it would be more expensive but I had not appreciated just how difficult it would be - notwithstanding the advice from the Man in Seat 61.  

The cost came out at roughly three times the airfare - without counting a night's accommodation on the way. OK; some things you can put down to the experience. However, I had not really thought through some of the other issues. Four different companies are involved so that you seem to need to allow an air gap between each leg of the journey, as, if you are delayed on one sector, another operator is hardly going to cover your ticket. 

Day 1 would involve Bristol to Paddington, St Pancras to Paris, a quick skip across Paris and then down to Nimes. If there were any delay on either leg to Paris, you could probably not make it to Nimes that night, which would  upset both your hotel reservation and your onward travel the following day. An option is therefore to spend a second night in Nimes and sightsee during the day to guarantee the connection.

Day 2 is all RENFE from Nimes to Madrid and from Madrid to Malaga. There is an hour to spare in Madrid Atocha which sounds as though it would be OK. The only problem here is that RENFE only seem to book a couple of months in advance, which makes it difficult to get the early booking discounts on other sectors. 

There are lots of things that governments could do to make rail travel more attractive, but the companies also need to get their act together if there is to be an effective European wide network.

In the early days of the railways, companies connected London to Bristol and Exeter to Bristol - and it took some while for the penny to drop that people might actually want to travel from Exeter to London or, heaven forbid, Birmingham. Since then, we have seen seen the growth of coherent networks within most countries (and decomposition again in this one). It is taking a real effort to construct a European wide network - rather than a series of connecting branchlines - but it is the only way if we are serious about making inroads on air travel. 

I am afraid that, at this stage, RyanAir looks quite attractive. 

Best wishes 

Eric     

[Siberian Snooper]

For my big 50 birthday, my parents gave me a 3 countries Eurail pass, this gave me discounted prices in Britain. My journey took me to Gibraltar. My itinerary was Plymouth to London and overnight there. Waterloo to Paris and overnight there. Paris to Tour and overnight there. Tour to Toulouse and overnight there. Toulouse to Barcelona and overnight there. Barcelona to Cordoba, via Madrid, overnight in Cordoba. Cordoba to Algeciras and bus to Gib. Return from Gib to Algeciras back on the train to Granada and overnight. Granada to Barcelona and overnight. Barcelona to Avignon and overnight. Avignon to Lyon via the French Alps, overnight in Lyon. Lyon to Paris and overnight. Paris to London and overnight. Return to Plymouth. The only booked trains were Plymouth to London and return and the Eurostar. The trains in Spain were booked at the overnight stays, and the TGV from Lyon. The only accommodation booked was London and Paris, everything else was done at the local tourist office.

 

From Paris onwards, was all done on the fly.

 

Be very ware of pickpockets in Barcelona, one got a severe headache, when his head collided with my grip.

 

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, burgundy said:

I spent a wet afternoon recently, trying to plan a journey from Bristol to Malaga by rail. I understood that it would be more expensive but I had not appreciated just how difficult it would be - notwithstanding the advice from the Man in Seat 61.  

The cost came out at roughly three times the airfare - without counting a night's accommodation on the way. OK; some things you can put down to the experience. However, I had not really thought through some of the other issues. Four different companies are involved so that you seem to need to allow an air gap between each leg of the journey, as, if you are delayed on one sector, another operator is hardly going to cover your ticket. 

Day 1 would involve Bristol to Paddington, St Pancras to Paris, a quick skip across Paris and then down to Nimes. If there were any delay on either leg to Paris, you could probably not make it to Nimes that night, which would  upset both your hotel reservation and your onward travel the following day. An option is therefore to spend a second night in Nimes and sightsee during the day to guarantee the connection.

Day 2 is all RENFE from Nimes to Madrid and from Madrid to Malaga. There is an hour to spare in Madrid Atocha which sounds as though it would be OK. The only problem here is that RENFE only seem to book a couple of months in advance, which makes it difficult to get the early booking discounts on other sectors. 

There are lots of things that governments could do to make rail travel more attractive, but the companies also need to get their act together if there is to be an effective European wide network.

In the early days of the railways, companies connected London to Bristol and Exeter to Bristol - and it took some while for the penny to drop that people might actually want to travel from Exeter to London or, heaven forbid, Birmingham. Since then, we have seen seen the growth of coherent networks within most countries (and decomposition again in this one). It is taking a real effort to construct a European wide network - rather than a series of connecting branchlines - but it is the only way if we are serious about making inroads on air travel. 

I am afraid that, at this stage, RyanAir looks quite attractive. 

Best wishes 

Eric     

 

 

We are about to have our fourth guided tour by using the train to Italy, on some of the holidays there is a choice of air or rail travel with the air travel option being quite a bit cheaper, but is one's holiday purely about cheapness ?

 

We prefer rail travel over cheap air flights. Yes its dearer but as we see the travel part of our holiday as important as the resort element we feel its well worth the money as we get two extra days holiday and have 2 overnight stays, we actually have 3 extra days as we travel to London the day before, have an extra night in a hotel and hopefully a pleasant afternoon and meal in the evening, what we are replacing is travelling in the very early hours (missing most of a nights sleep) to be at St Pancras between 6 and 6:30 am especially when rail strikes and disruptions to the network at weekends, as it is its still an early morning wake up staying across the road

 

If you analyse the daily cost going up the afternoon before and staying overnight is the worse value £'s wise, but perhaps the most beneficial. The day and a half traveling by train we find is very enjoyable as is the overnight stay. Paying less and going by air firstly there is no tour manager to sort out all the travel details, then you have (for us) the awful airport experience) then stuck in a cramped aircraft for two or three hours.  On a train to start with a nice comfortable and roomy seat, I can get up for a stroll which usually ends up with a glass of wine or beer, perhaps a snack, , lunch at a nice railway station, rather than being in a cramped aircraft then another awful airport experience. But my daughter loves the airport experience, getting there early for the first holiday meal !!

Edited August 23, 2023 by hayfield

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

We are about to have our fourth guided tour by using the train to Italy, on some of the holidays there is a choice of air or rail travel with the air travel option being quite a bit cheaper, but is one's holiday purely about cheapness ?

 

We prefer rail travel over cheap air flights. Yes its dearer but as we see the travel part of our holiday as important as the resort element we feel its well worth the money as we get two extra days holiday and have 2 overnight stays, we actually have 3 extra days as we travel to London the day before, have an extra night in a hotel and hopefully a pleasant afternoon and meal in the evening, what we are replacing is travelling in the very early hours (missing most of a nights sleep) to be at St Pancras between 6 and 6:30 am especially when rail strikes and disruptions to the network at weekends, as it is its still an early morning wake up staying across the road

 

If you analyse the daily cost going up the afternoon before and staying overnight is the worse value £'s wise, but perhaps the most beneficial. The day and a half traveling by train we find is very enjoyable as is the overnight stay. Paying less and going by air firstly there is no tour manager to sort out all the travel details, then you have (for us) the awful airport experience) then stuck in a cramped aircraft for two or three hours.  On a train to start with a nice comfortable and roomy seat, I can get up for a stroll which usually ends up with a glass of wine or beer, perhaps a snack, , lunch at a nice railway station, rather than being in a cramped aircraft then another awful airport experience. But my daughter loves the airport experience, getting there early for the first holiday meal !!

The trouble is for many of us, it's not two extra days holiday, but two fewer days at the destination - so much as I'd rather travel by train (I too hate the airport experience, as does Mrs C), we're constrained by how much time we can take off work.