Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Whats so special about the UK - are you seriously telling me there isn't a similar need for the French equivalent of HMRC to stop and search arrivals from the UK?

 

Every country I have travelled to rightly checks those entering their country, whether it be immigration or customs. The difference with all channel travel is the immigration checks are done prior to travel

 

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sorry, there simply isn't a good reason reason a French style exit straight off the problems could not have been adopted (either at Waterloo or St Pancras)* - so stop pretending there is. The only reason it 'cannot be done' is the stupid 'little England mentality in this country and increasing paranoia over UK borders** (rather than cold, hard, facts) - views which manifest themselves in cumbersome laws and regulations not to mention border facilities the rest of Europe has ditched many years ago - without said countries imploding I hasten to point out.

 

I cannot see what the issues are at St Pancras, on my visits the exits from a high level platform to the exits downstairs is hassle free and certainly more modern and much cleaner. In fact to reach our courtesy coach to Garde do Lyon is very run down and has far more security in uniforms than at St Pancras

 

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Moreover seeing the UK authorities demand all passengers on international trains are screened before departure why not do all necessary customs checks at there. Its not as if passengers do not have to pass through a piece of sovereign UK territory*** at Gare Du Nord and board unsealed trains is it?

 

 

* Laws passed by parliament are not the same as laws of physics. Just because the inhabitants of Whitehall and their overloads in the palace of Westminster have passed laws that state 'X, must be done' does not mean said laws are good, or justified - particularly when a peer review of other countries shows they can do things better.

 

I have used Eurostar for several holidays and all the checks are much the same at both ends, most of the security checks are nothing to do with customs or immigration, but a joint agreement between both countries to protect both customers and the infrastructure, as for customs its the same at all airports and main ferry crossings

 

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

** Over many decades I hasten to add - not joining the Schengen area all those years ago was just as much an example of the 'insular English' mentality as the whole Brexit saga is.

 

Looking at what happened about 2 years ago at various border crossings it can quickly change, and as I said everybody on the train from Chambery (France) to Turin (Italy) has their documents checked whilst the train crosses the border. This has occurred on my last 3 journeys over the past 8 years and is not a problem, and why should it be I had nothing to hide !!!

 

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

*** For members unaware, UK laws can only be enforced on UK territory so the floor space around UK border controls at Gare Du Nord / Calais / Brussels Midi / Lille Europe was ceded by France to the UK, The same is true in reverse of course in that the French state owns tiny parcels of territory in St Pancreas, Ebsfleet, Ashford, Dover, etc so that French law can be applied to intending travellers. When Waterloo was the London Terminus of Eurostar it too had a small piece of floor space ceded to the French state - which was returned by France once international trains pulled out.

 

 

 

 

 

I simply cannot see what the issues are, there are things at Garde du Nord that are better than St Pancras, but equally things at St Pancras better than Garde du Nord

 

What I can say is our experiences using Eurostar are far better than our experiences at airports.  No doubt as time goes by things will change perhaps even streamline further, But my experience has been fine from staff, officials and the facilities. Garde du Nord has been upgraded since our first visit and is far superior now, travel now from St Pancras from Waterloo is very different from when travel started, but the world then was quite different.

 

As I said in a few months we will be using it again and we are looking forward to the journeys on both Eurostar and TGV's. We have an early departure so staying overnight in London will be essential, we will travel up in the afternoon and have a nice evening meal to start the holiday off, the hotel is a short walk from the station and we will have breakfast either at the station or on the train, this will depend on how quickly we proceed through check in, security and passport control. Who cares who owns what, just how efficiently we are processed.

 

The one bonus about just walking off the platform is that we will need to get to Garde du Lyon to catch a TGV, transfer is by coach and the traffic in central Paris is very heavy and usually takes half an hour.

[Ron Ron Ron]

47 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Other than you who thinks that you can just turn up and go, every bit of advice about airport travel is to arrive between 2 and 3 hours prior to departure,…….

You are twisting what I said.

The original comment that sparked this off, suggested you were “required” to get to the airport 2 or 3 hours before your flight.

There is no such “ requirement”

The only restriction, is the closing time for dropping off any hold luggage and the closing time for at airport check-in, which doesn’t apply to the majority of passengers, who will have checked in beforehand ( that’s even a requirement with some large, low cost operators).

Other than that, passengers with valid boarding cards ( which can be on your phone, or on a sheet of paper, printed off a home, or anywhere else), must be at the gate in time for boarding.

 

To ensure you are on time, whether that’s dropping off hold luggage, airport check-in, or just arriving in time to board your flight, is entirely up to you.

Seasoned travellers will have a rough idea of what time they need to allow at any stage of their journey, to or through an airport and that judgement should take into account of what airport it is  and your travelling distance to it.

Turn up and go was with regard to not having hold luggage and having already checked in and having a boarding card (electronic or on paper). 
You could turn up and go at Heathrow, but you’d still need to get to the front door of the terminal with at least about an hour or so to spare.

Conversely, you could rock up at the front door of LCY half an hour before your flight and still make it to the gate in good time, although most travellers would probably allow more time.

 

Again, the 2 or 3 hours is “advice”, to discourage too many people from arriving too close to the closing of the bag drop, or check-in ( for those that need it), whether that’s 30 mins, 40 mins, or 1 hour before scheduled departure time.

In fact, in most cases, there’s no point arriving much more before 2 hours, even with hold luggage, because you can’t deposit your bags until they open the facility, 2 hours before.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, hayfield said:

…..The same professional advice is for Eurostar passengers to arrive 90 mins before. The main reason is the added time taken by the increased French immigration checks….

I wonder how counterproductive, this arrangement is.

In my (limited) experience, they won’t allow check-in at St. Pancras, until 1 hour before the scheduled departure time, so the recommendation results in a large queue building up in the holding pens outside the departure area. Sometimes extending beyond and  stretching around the station concourse.

Once they start allowing passengers through, there’s the inevitable delay for individuals to file in turn, through the check-in and then to wait in the queue for the X-ray machines.

 

Once through that, passing through UK and then French border control, is fairly swift.

The only hold ups at the French counters, always appears to be with people from more “ far flung” countries, rather than with Brits or EU passport holders.

This was always the case, even before ……. .

 

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

…….. I have to check in my car on line a couple of days prior to each service. The fact is in doing so I have not actually checked in as my car will still be on my drive and possibly be used several times prior to actually taking the car to the dealership, parking my car in their carpark, going to the service counter, waiting my turn to actually hand my keys over and sign the service paperwork to accept their terms and conditions.

 

When did I book my car in ?  For me it was when I handed the keys over and checked in physically ……. 

There is no analogy with online check-in for air travel contained in that example.

 

The majority of air travellers in Europe and North America, check-in prior to arrival at the airport.

A number of airlines insist on it.

The boarding card(s) are issued at the time of check-in, whether that’s a day or 2 weeks before your flight.

Seats are usually allocated, or chosen, at this point, unless you have already pre-booked specific seats at the time of making your booking.

You sign the terms and conditions at that point.

There is no further requirement to then check-in again, on arrival at the airport.

If you have hold luggage (which usually is declared on booking, but not always a requirement), then you will have to go through a bag drop procedure, which can be at a self service point at some airports.

Otherwise, if you do not have checked hold luggage, there is nothing else to do, other than get yourself to the gate in time for your flight.

Again, it’s up to the individual(s) to work that out for themselves.

With online check-in and cabin baggage only, the only way the airline knows if you’ve turned up for your flight, is when you present your boarding card at the gate, as you start to board.

 

 

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

……If you cut it too short and your seat was reallocated to another person, whose fault is it when the airport and airline advise arriving hours earlier. Given issues with roads and other forms of transport travellers are advised to take these problems into consideration. 

 

As I’ve said, it’s up to you how much contingency time to allow, for each stage of your pre-flight journey.

 

Seats can be reallocated at anytime, even after you’ve arrived at the airport.

Occasionally seats will even be changed at the gate, if there’s some last minute need to do it.

The airline reserves the right to do this.

Usually, you’ll have your specific seats allocated, or pre-chosen by yourself, either at booking (in most cases, a chargeable service), or at check-in, which is more often than not, done online for most passengers.

Seats allocated to people checking in at the airport (either at a manned desk, or a self-service terminal), will usually be what’s left over.

That can be very hit and miss and too risky if more than one passenger, wish to to sit together.

 

Arriving at the airport, already checked in, with hand luggage and seats allocated, bears very little risk of losing those particular seats.

It does happen sometimes, but it would only be due to a very last minute reason and wouldn’t be affected by someone physically checking in at the airport 2 hours early. They are not going to be given your seats.

 

 

.

[ruggedpeak]

I am with Ron on this.

 

2 or 3 hours is not a requirement, it is however sensible if you are travelling long distances to the airport. 2 or 3 hours is essential for many of the larger airports as trapping people who are often in 'holiday mode' (the same mode that makes them do stupid/dangerous things they'd never do at home) in a shopping centre is a key part of their revenue and profits.  I regularly travel to and from the UK via smaller airports (e.g. not LHR or LGW) and even with check in luggage it does not require a 2/3 hour lead time, except at peak holiday and ski season. The smaller airports like LCY, LTN, EDI and SEN can all be attended with much shorter lead times.

 

Eurostar and rail competitors can and should be able to match the smaller airports, noting that St Pancras is clearly based upon a Heathrow or Stansted retail park rather than the smaller, quicker airports. Eurostar will have less checked in luggage given its allowances (2 suitcases per adult) compared to short haul/Euro air routes, and even with full security and outbound border control (as at GVA for example) it is still possible to do all that in well under an hour if properly designed. Then it is a case of finding a way to get rail ticket prices to be more realistic compared to air fares.....

[hayfield]

19 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I wonder how counterproductive, this arrangement is.

In my (limited) experience, they won’t allow check-in at St. Pancras, until 1 hour before the scheduled departure time, so the recommendation results in a large queue building up in the holding pens outside the departure area. Sometimes extending beyond and  stretching around the station concourse.

Once they start allowing passengers through, there’s the inevitable delay for individuals to file in turn, through the check-in and then to wait in the queue for the X-ray machines.

 

Once through that, passing through UK and then French border control, is fairly swift.

The only hold ups at the French counters, always appears to be with people from more “ far flung” countries, rather than with Brits or EU passport holders.

This was always the case, even before ……. .

 

 

 

As I said in my experience of St Pancras if you arrive early there are plenty of places to either buy last minute or just simply sit down and get a coffee, you can choose to queue up prior to the entrance time or once it opens. I have found that by using the refreshment facilities upstairs far better

 

I have never found either security or passport control to be arduous at either stations.

 

The news channels have been reporting delays (mostly at channel ports) due to longer immigration checks.

 

Once we found the departure lounge crowded which was due to delays owing to a broken down train in the tunnel overnight, it seems the station operator regulates passenger flows to stop overcrowding. But in all times never seen anything like the queues in airports outside the departure lounge at St Pancras, according to Eurostar 2 trains per hour !!!  15 trains to Paris daily 

 

The journey back is now much better at Garde du Nord as they have a more modern departure lounge which is much larger than St Pancras, as Garde du Nord is a major crime spot being able to access the departure lounge is essential plus reduces peaks of passengers. Sadly at St Pancras space is very limited 

 

Eurostar's advice re check ins

 

https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/your-trip/check-in 

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I am with Ron on this.

 

2 or 3 hours is not a requirement, it is however sensible if you are travelling long distances to the airport. 2 or 3 hours is essential for many of the larger airports as trapping people who are often in 'holiday mode' (the same mode that makes them do stupid/dangerous things they'd never do at home) in a shopping centre is a key part of their revenue and profits.  I regularly travel to and from the UK via smaller airports (e.g. not LHR or LGW) and even with check in luggage it does not require a 2/3 hour lead time, except at peak holiday and ski season. The smaller airports like LCY, LTN, EDI and SEN can all be attended with much shorter lead times.

 

Eurostar and rail competitors can and should be able to match the smaller airports, noting that St Pancras is clearly based upon a Heathrow or Stansted retail park rather than the smaller, quicker airports. Eurostar will have less checked in luggage given its allowances (2 suitcases per adult) compared to short haul/Euro air routes, and even with full security and outbound border control (as at GVA for example) it is still possible to do all that in well under an hour if properly designed. Then it is a case of finding a way to get rail ticket prices to be more realistic compared to air fares.....

 

 

The gates close 30 mins before departure for standard class, suggested arrival is 90 mins for standard class. Well short of  Heathrow 2-3 hours, Gatwick at least 2 hours, Stanstead "As a general guide, you will need to have checked in and be ready to go through security at least 2 hours before your flight departure time".  Luton "typically 2-3 hours before your flight." Edinburgh  at least two hours before your flight is due to leave, While Air Canada and Delta open their desks up to four hours before flight times, easyjet and Ryanair do so at least two hours before ... All from the airports own websites !!!  I would rather trust the airports than keyboard warriors !!

 

However we chose train travel as its a leisurely way of travelling internationally,  No rush and the worry of missing the train, the journey is a big part of the the holiday with overnight stop overs both ways. As I said we will travel the previous afternoon and book in to a hotel close to the station, enjoy a meal in the evening and early night,  as we have a very early departure time, why leave everything to the last minute ? leave plenty of time to proceed through security and immigration and then have a coffee in the lounge, it is after all a holiday away from everyday pressures, anyway I dont know why I am defending going early, as the fewer people arrive early means I can get through even quicker

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

I am afraid that has not been my experience in the past using package holidays, I can remember every time getting to the baggage check in at least 2 hours prior to the departure time. then clearing UK customs and going to wait for the flight lounge to open. and unlike Eurostar having to navigate customs and passport control in the arrivals section, add both together and its hours

 

From travel supermarket website

 

"Airlines generally advise that you should get to the airport at least two hours before your short-haul international flight – but if you need to check in at the desk or drop off bags, consider getting there earlier, especially if you’re travelling in peak times".

 

Manchester Airport

"As a general guide, you will need to have checked in and be ready to go through security at least 2 hours before your flight departure time."

 

Heathrow Airport

 

"We recommend getting to the airport three hours before your flight if you're travelling internationally, or two hours if you're travelling domestically or to Europe."

 

The travel professionals seem to disagree with you. Now I can understand with hand luggage check in time can be reduced but if you arrive too late before departure you run the risk of the seat being given to someone else !!!

 

Eurostar, le Shuttle and the channel ports are different and the biggest issue is the customs (French)  clearance, (not done it for about 4 years and due to go later in the year) But as has been said there is no waiting for customs clearance once the Train, shuttle, ship arrives. So its like comparing apples to oranges

 

Latest advice for Eurostar is to arrive 1.5 hours before departure, no doubt we will arrive to the companies office earlier then get a coffee prior to going through security and immigration, still no queues at the other end other than the one to get on the coach to Garde du Lyon 

There is quite a difference between regularly travelling as ain individual and travelling on a package holiday.  If you're a regular individual traveller - whatever the mode - you soon learn the way round.  For example when Eurostar was running from Waterloo and I was travelling for work purposes I never arrived at check-in and the security check more than 15 minutes before departure as by then all the crowds had passed through.  (And I was still usually one of the first to take my seat on the train.)

 

I've checked in at Heathrowmore than once (in the days before online check-in) for a flight in Business Class eith cabin baggage only no more than about 10-20 minutes before the check-in closed.  Again. by then, the crowds had gone. 

[jjb1970]

I think it is an argument over what is recommended and prudent vs. what is required. You can turn up right until the point check-in closes at the airport if you need to check in (30 minutes) but it wouldn't be especially wise to do so.

 

A few months ago I did it in 20 minutes at Hanoi because I was delayed (my fault for cutting it too fine) I called the airport who connected me to the Singapore Airlines duty manager who said they'd hold the door open as long as possible but wouldn't delay the flight. A lady met me at the desk and escorted me through security and passport control and to the aircraft. They closed the door as soon as I stepped in and were pushing back before I go my seatbelt on. That's the tightest I have ever done. Not sure whether SQ do that for everyone or because I have their frequent flyer gold card ( the duty manager took my details) but I was impressed. I guess it is one of the benefits of a full service carrier versus an LCC.

[Neil]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Whats so special about the UK - are you seriously telling me there isn't a similar need for the French equivalent of HMRC to stop and search arrivals from the UK?

 

Sorry, there simply isn't a good reason reason a French style exit straight off the problems could not have been adopted (either at Waterloo or St Pancras)* - so stop pretending there is. ....

 

 

The last time I got off the Eurostar at Gare du Nord (last autumn) there were customs officials at the platform end pulling over people who looked liked they had gone shopping for stuff in the UK. However that was the first time I noticed a welcome party.

 

On check in times, once (before Brexit) Mrs R and I had a very close shave at St Pancras. Our train from Birmingham to Marylebone (Euston closed for engineering) was very delayed as the one in front had conked out somewhere south of Leamington Spa. We arrived at Marylebone with about twenty five minutes to spare before our departure time. A very swift taxi to St Pancras and we were whistled through by Eurostar staff who were brilliant saw us catch the train. Not sure I'd fancy doing this now with the enhanced immigration procedures.

[Nick C]

A lot of the discussion here stems from how St Pancras and Gare Du Nord don't have capacity for more trains - but why are we still wedded to the City-Centre-to-City-Centre approach? A substantial proportion of passengers won't be going London to Paris, but "somewhere in UK" to "somewhere in France/Europe" - and those who are doing city-to-city are already well catered for by Eurostar. So better, I think, would be a connection from a decent interchange station here to a decent interchange station over there. Where those would be I don't know, but I'd certainly be a lot happier to not have to travel into London and/or Paris to get to where I'm actually going.

 

It's something that really annoys me about airports too - why, for example, do we still not have a direct train from Reading (which has pretty good links to almost everywhere) to Heathrow? The RailAir bus is fraught with risk due to the inevitable M25 delays.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

A lot of the discussion here stems from how St Pancras and Gare Du Nord don't have capacity for more trains - but why are we still wedded to the City-Centre-to-City-Centre approach? A substantial proportion of passengers won't be going London to Paris, but "somewhere in UK" to "somewhere in France/Europe" - and those who are doing city-to-city are already well catered for by Eurostar. So better, I think, would be a connection from a decent interchange station here to a decent interchange station over there. Where those would be I don't know, but I'd certainly be a lot happier to not have to travel into London and/or Paris to get to where I'm actually going.

 

It's something that really annoys me about airports too - why, for example, do we still not have a direct train from Reading (which has pretty good links to almost everywhere) to Heathrow? The RailAir bus is fraught with risk due to the inevitable M25 delays.

That idea makesa lot of asense - until you start doing the market research to see what sort of journeys passengers make in what sort if volumes and what they want.  You need also to take account of where people live iin relation to city centres.  That in turn favours a central area terminal in Parise but a less central one in London.  However the latter comes with the problem of where to put it catch the biggest market.

 

Strangely Paris  has a reasonable alternative out-of-centre possibility at Marn la Vallée whereas London has no obvious place and certainly not one properly suited to international trains running through the Channel Tunnel.  Stratford might come nearest, out of what actually exists, for London because it has pretty good access from a wide area but it's not suitable for handling regu;ar train reversals with teh dwell time they would need.  In fact the  ideal alternative London r ternial would have been Waterloo International with an excellent catchment area which mainly doesn't overlap with St Pancras catchment;  but that opportniity has long gone. 

 

Various others were looked at by Eurostar UK and one of them - slightly north of central London would make operational sense with CTRL/HS1 in place.  But while it appears, still, to have space obtainable to develop a suitable terminal that would cost a lot of money.  And its catchment would be purely from  an area north west of central London although that area woudl stretch a consderab;e distance from the capital into further population centres.  But, i think, not the sort of investment level that might attract a new entrant although it might provide. albeit at some expense, a suitable spot to reverse trains terminating (for commercial purposes) at Stratford.

 

So ec ven going out of London would pose expensive problems and there is really only one route that can be used.

 

PS To answer your final point while Reading would, I think, be a very good 'out of London' nodal point for such an operation the big problem - apart from  a bit ofelectrification infill - is the sheer lack of capacity on the GWML plus the need to construct a suitable terminal platform at Reading.  I looked back in the '90s at possib;e operation over the GWML for a Regional Eurostar variant/. Although a number of technical issues shot the scheme down at an early stage there wasn't even enough line capacityon the GWML back then to do what was in mind, and it's a lot busier now.

Edited August 11, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[APOLLO]

We had an enjoyable day out by train from Wigan to Liverpool earlier in the week. This involves crossing the border from Greater Manchester to Merseyside between Bryn and Garswood.

 

OK going out, but coming home we were stopped for a while as border police were present counting the train wheels, and searching us all for car hub caps, wheel bolt spanners, hoodie jackets with shop labels attached etc, in, on top of, and under the train. A scruffy irk was dragged away, shouting for his solicitor. !!

 

We were given the "all clear Laa" and were on our way !!!!!

 

When we got home the news told of trouble at Liverpool airport earlier in the day.

 

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Every country I have travelled to rightly checks those entering their country, whether it be immigration or customs. The difference with all channel travel is the immigration checks are done prior to travel.

This is not in dispute - However you cannot ignore the fact that the French and Belgian equivalents of HMRC are very happy for the ONLY checks to take place at point of departure.  It is ONLY THE UK which insists on having duplicate facilities at both ends and thus feels the need to have a full customs facility at St Pancras AS WELL as facilities at departure stations on the continent.

 

 

Given the world hasn’t imploded in the 30 odd years Eurostar has been in operation and I see no signs that France is suffering from a tidal wave of smuggled items then the only logical conclusion you can draw is that the UKs insistence on extra customs facilities is driven by paranoia and politics rather than any real need

 

 

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I cannot see what the issues are at St Pancras, on my visits the exits from a high level platform to the exits downstairs is hassle free and certainly more modern and much cleaner. In fact to reach our courtesy coach to Garde do Lyon is very run down and has far more security in uniforms than at St Pancras

 

The problem isn’t so much that the current exit from the international problems is a hassle for incoming passengers - it’s more about the SPACE it takes up.

 

Having used Eurostar a few times over the past few years I will personally testify the departure areas are hot, overcrowded and a throughly unpleasant place to be squished into while awaiting admittance to the platforms. Neither is it much fun to be slowly shuffling along a huge queue snaking all the way back to the EMR /SE /Thameslink concourse past all the shops for check in.

 

I contend that if you ditched the current arrivals hall beneath the platforms then (along with some other alterations) you would free up lots of space which could then be re-purposed for the departure lounge and all the associated border processes (including customs checks) thus greatly improving the travelling experience as well as providing more flexibility to cope with operational issues.

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

This is not in dispute - However you cannot ignore the fact that the French and Belgian equivalents of HMRC are very happy for the ONLY checks to take place at point of departure.  It is ONLY THE UK which insists on having duplicate facilities at both ends and thus feels the need to have a full customs facility at St Pancras AS WELL as facilities at departure stations on the continent.

 

 

Given the world hasn’t imploded in the 30 odd years Eurostar has been in operation and I see no signs that France is suffering from a tidal wave of smuggled items then the only logical conclusion you can draw is that the UKs insistence on extra customs facilities is driven by paranoia and politics rather than any real need

 

An earlier poster has stated that they have seen French Officials stop and check people who arrive on Eurostar. You may not have seen them, but that is not proof they are neither not there and or active. 

 

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

The problem isn’t so much that the current exit from the international problems is a hassle for incoming passengers - it’s more about the SPACE it takes up.

 

Having used Eurostar a few times over the past few years I will personally testify the departure areas are hot, overcrowded and a throughly unpleasant place to be squished into while awaiting admittance to the platforms. Neither is it much fun to be slowly shuffling along a huge queue snaking all the way back to the EMR /SE /Thameslink concourse past all the shops for check in.

 

You have accurately describe many of the experiences I have had at Luton and Gatwick, plus most foreign airports I have used in Europe, with the exception of one Greek airport where after going through check in were told to go out of the building and wait on the beach (Samos?.

 

I don't doubt you have had this experience. But  in the 3 most recent times I have used Eurostar I have only experienced this once, only inside the waiting area when all trains were delayed due to an overnight breakdown in the tunnel. I found this a minor irritation for 20 mins and totally understandable. St Pancras is on a totally different scale to even Luton airport let alone Gatwick which can be/is sheer hell during the summer holiday periods.

 

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I contend that if you ditched the current arrivals hall beneath the platforms then (along with some other alterations) you would free up lots of space which could then be re-purposed for the departure lounge and all the associated border processes (including customs checks) thus greatly improving the travelling experience as well as providing more flexibility to cope with operational issues.

 

Not knowing the station very well (as we seem to move through departures and arrivals quickly and efficiently) with trains leaving every 20 to 30 mins there always seem to be a good flow of passenger movements, whilst using in July or August I cannot say the station areas were oppressively hot, but we go in the mornings and I guess the station may get hotter during the day. And again I have had far worse experiences at both Luton and Gatwick. I would place St Pancras as a far nicer place as a departure point.

 

As far as departures are concerned the gates close 30 mins prior to departure and from memory we start boarding 20/15 mins prior to departure. I like to grab a coffee so prefer to get into the departure lounge well before that, I think in the past gates opened about an hour prior to departure which I think is fine and we would have been in the station earlier enough to check in with the tour company and a quick coffee before queuing up. Given Immigration checks are taking longer arriving 30 mins earlier is fine all be it an earlier start to the day 

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

This is not in dispute - However you cannot ignore the fact that the French and Belgian equivalents of HMRC are very happy for the ONLY checks to take place at point of departure.  It is ONLY THE UK which insists on having duplicate facilities at both ends and thus feels the need to have a full customs facility at St Pancras AS WELL as facilities at departure stations on the continent.

 

 

Given the world hasn’t imploded in the 30 odd years Eurostar has been in operation and I see no signs that France is suffering from a tidal wave of smuggled items then the only logical conclusion you can draw is that the UKs insistence on extra customs facilities is driven by paranoia and politics rather than any real need

 

 

 

The problem isn’t so much that the current exit from the international problems is a hassle for incoming passengers - it’s more about the SPACE it takes up.

 

Having used Eurostar a few times over the past few years I will personally testify the departure areas are hot, overcrowded and a throughly unpleasant place to be squished into while awaiting admittance to the platforms. Neither is it much fun to be slowly shuffling along a huge queue snaking all the way back to the EMR /SE /Thameslink concourse past all the shops for check in.

 

I contend that if you ditched the current arrivals hall beneath the platforms then (along with some other alterations) you would free up lots of space which could then be re-purposed for the departure lounge and all the associated border processes (including customs checks) thus greatly improving the travelling experience as well as providing more flexibility to cope with operational issues.

Phil it's a while since I travelled by Eurostar but I have only ever seen Customs Offcers at the British end except during 'special operations. in Paris by French Customs officials.    And there is no provision for UK Customs Officers to operate n France and Belgium amd unless laws of changed they have no powers to do so.

 

What happens at St Pancras s no different from any UK airport dealing with international flights or seaports or, in official terms the Chunnel terminal at Folkestone.

 

There is little reason for anyone to bother smuggling very much in the opposite direction although it seems that at long last French Customs ave worken up to French nationals making shopping trips to England.   But coming towards the Uk there are various flourisihing markets for certain things can take advantage of dfferences in taxation and duty with alcohol and tobacco being the most obvious.  But people smuggling  watches or jewellery were among the those detained at Waterloo and a singl eperson g could be carrying enough stuff to try to avoid thousands of £s in duty and tac xes.  I can't see much reason to think that 'business' has become any less lucrative for smugglers.

 

French Customs seem to be mainly interested in the smuggling of drugs either into or out of France and the only Customs checks I ever saw in Paris for barding passengers were for drugs.    And you ain't seen nothing in Customs operations until you've seen a French plain -clothes Customs team swoop on someone suspected of smuggllng drugs over a border into France.  Similarly compared with Australian Customs  our Customs folk are the very soul of a discrete approach and politeness.

 

In Customs terms Eurostar is no different fromn  any other international route into Britain so I can'y t understand why you think it so un usual.   But that is not what this thread is about.

[Siberian Snooper]

When I went to the states at the end of March, I was glad that I turned up nearly 3 hours early, because I couldn't check in online, due to the system not liking my date of birth. When I arrived at check in LHR terminal 5 and was told that my flight was cancelled and I had been transferred to an American Airlines flight from terminal 3 and left half an hour earlier than my flight.

 

My last three trips on the Eurostar, post Brexit has seen huge queues for check in, whereas pre Brexit, there were hardly any queues, I could go and have a final pint in what used to be the John Betjeman, stroll through check in around 25 minutes or so before departure time and have an all round relaxing experience.

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Phil it's a while since I travelled by Eurostar but I have only ever seen Customs Offcers at the British end except during 'special operations. in Paris by French Customs officials.    And there is no provision for UK Customs Officers to operate n France and Belgium amd unless laws of changed they have no powers to do so.

 

 

Hmm so what you are saying is the French are quite happy for there to be no routine customs checks then for the best part of 30 years. Strange how the world hasn't fallen in o the French state gone to ruin as a result....

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

In Customs terms Eurostar is no different from  any other international route into Britain so I can'y t understand why you think it so unusual.   But that is not what this thread is about.

 

 

Its not so much as Eurostar being fundamentally 'different' in terms of the need for customs facilities - its rather the intelligent observation that the French and Belgians do not require the same facilities that the UK does with respect to arriving passengers. Last time I looked both countries were not falling apart through illicit imports and as developed western nations neither seem to have significant problems in terms of tackling smuggling even though they simply let arriving folk walk directly off the platforms. Trying to make out that the UKs approach is the only way of doing things is an unfortunate trait of the English and gives rise to a misguided sense of superiority we like to pretend we have over other nations.

 

Your insistence on the need for extensive customs facilities is thus in my view not supported by the evidence. Comparisons with airports or ports are actually pretty meaningless because in the case of the former incoming persons come from a whole host of countries (not just the EU) which significantly increases the risk of smuggling while at ports you have motor vehicles which can smuggle things in far grater numbers than a person with a suitcase can. Granted our exit from the EU complicates things - but if the French can find ways of coping with a external EU border which does not require routine customs checks then so can we.

 

Given the international terminal at St Pancras is far smaller than Waterloo (yet the Siemens built stock can carry even more passengers than the old 373s that terminated at Waterloo) and there are constant issues surrounding overcrowding of the departure facilities, removing as much unnecessary facilities as possible (thus facilitating the realoctaing of space) would make a massive difference to not only the customer experience but the smooth running of the whole operation. You might even be able to free up some space for a competitor... and that is the relevance to this thread. 

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

An earlier poster has stated that they have seen French Officials stop and check people who arrive on Eurostar. You may not have seen them, but that is not proof they are neither not there and or active. 

 

 

 

I'm not foolish enough to believe that the French never stop and check incoming arrivals - its more the observation that they don't seem to need a dedicated arrivals hall to do said checks do they!

 

Given France is a developed western nation and not a banana republic then there is zero reason the British cannot learn from their approach with respect to Eurostar arrivals.

[adb968008]

On 10/08/2023 at 13:57, hayfield said:

 

 

I am afraid that has not been my experience in the past using package holidays,

I stopped reading after this line.

[adb968008]

As someone with 2mn airmiles, 3500 flights and various status for airlines i totally agree with the “2 hour” message for those who dont fly often, but for those who do, anything you can get away with goes… I've done a connecting flight in 10 minutes once at Madrid, lost my shoes in the rush and boarded barefoot!!!

 

Also rules arent always followed, back in 2007 a flight with an a320 crashed into a block of flats in Congonhas, Sao Paulo.. it took a week for a globally recognised intl airline to come up with a passenger list.. I wondered how that was so… especially as I was in country at the time and flew that airline a week later at that airport….

 

when I checked in at Curitiba airport to Congonhas, also on a TAM A320… there wasnt enough seats, and no hand luggage checks… the flight took off with people standing in the aisle, sitting on large plastic bags and some in the toilet…

it didnt get better at Congonhas… the flight was late, they told me to get on the next plane to Rio… but there was no one at the gate, and no one checking tickets as i boarded the plane…indeed I texted my wife to tell her I was on this plane as no one at the airline knows I am..to this day I still have the unused coupon, and boarding pass…so know I knew.

The Uk isnt that bad, but I did once arrive at Norwich Airport to find it closed in the middle of the afternoon. I had to wait for someone to open it. My flight to Amsterdam was checked in with a hand written boarding pass, and the whole process from door opening to boarding (inc checkin, security, passport checking, boarding even the shop was done by the same 2 people, who happened to be man and wife, she even looked vaguely like Alan Partridge).

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

…….Given France is a developed western nation and not a banana republic then there is zero reason the British cannot learn from their approach with respect to Eurostar arrivals.

You could easily turn that on its head.

If all other ports of entry into France, from outside of the Schengen area, are covered by more conventional customs arrangements, why have the French left such a gaping hole for arrivals via the Channel Tunnel and Eurostar?

 

Are they the only EU member state to have allowed such a loophole and could that be considered incompetent?

 

 

.

[jjb1970]

For me the problems were never with arrival. I have never been pulled by customs in London and with a couple of exceptions have just walked from the train to Euston for my next train. Vastly better than any of the London airports with the possible exception of City. The issues have always been outbound, queuing at security and passport control. On that point I didn't really find London any better or worse than Brussels or Paris. None of the wait areas after passport control were especially pleasant.

[hayfield]

 

The original post was about a competitor to Eurostar, which if we look at usual market forces where there is a monopoly usually one pays a higher price. But I guess Eurostar have competition from air and coach travel.

 

The crucial point is is there room for additional trains through the tunnel ? 

 

Secondly would there be space at St Pancras for extra trains ? I assume the other European destinations would be able to cope better as a third of the departures do not go to Paris

 

Its then morphed into the departure facilities at St Pancras, in the past I have only had an issue when train delays affected those being held in the departure lounge. But I have not travelled since Brexit and covid. I understand the French immigrations now do additional checks which is the main reason for the additional time it takes to enter the departure lounge. 

 

Would making the departure lounge bigger solve the issue I doubt it, perhaps altering the area where you queue up may make a difference, however the biggest gain would be if the French immigration service used technology to speed things up, I read that for 1st class passengers a pre- on line check in system is being trialled, in the end we are entering France and the French government have every right to check all travellers in the manner they choose, The time and length of queues is in their hands

 

In a 12 hour period usually there are 21 outward bound services each with up to 900 passengers, at the busiest times there may be 2700 passengers being processed in an hour

 

Now if there was additional services would the queuing be worse or would there be extra immigration staff employed ? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

...... I have not travelled since Brexit and covid. I understand the French immigrations now do additional checks which is the main reason for the additional time it takes to enter the departure lounge. ......

 

While the additional passport check adds a bit of extra time, for most people it isn't more than the officer sticking the passport under the scanner, observing the results on their screen and then putting an entry stamp into the passport.

It seems to take an additional 20 or 30 seconds from personal experience.

 

As I've said before, from my experience, the additional time comes from being held in the cattle pen outside the departure area (terminal), until they commence check-in, which seems to be around an hour before the scheduled departure time.

Because a large queue is deliberately built up, by encouraging passengers to turn up early (90 minutes being recommended), it inevitably takes time for everyone to filter through the check-in machine and then wait in line to pass through the security scanners, which always takes forever, mostly due to dawdling and sometimes dopey people.

 

Once through those, it's fairly straightforward to pass through UK border and then French border check points.

There has never been a delay or queue for either of these check points, more than say, maybe 4 or 5 people waiting ahead.

 

Now you could say that the bottleneck caused by check-in and then security (more the latter), effectively meters the flow through the two passport controls, which is what appears to be fairly accurate summation of the situation, from our own experience.

The extra delay is all at the entrance and up to and including security, with no delay caused by UK or French border checks (additional checks or not).

However, if (hypothetically) the security process was completely done away with, it would be quite reasonable to suppose that the bottleneck would then move on to border control.

 

So we are back round to the issue of lack of accommodation in the departure lounge and the facilities behind those various check points.

If a very much larger departure lounge was provide, I could see little or no need to prevent people checking-in and passing through security and the border checks, up to say, 2 hours or more ahead of departure.

This would obviate the need to hold people in pens, outside of the Eurostar terminal, creating a queue with the inevitable delay in processing everyone.

The problem then, is how do you discourage, or prevent large numbers of people turning up at the last minute? 

 

 

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

.......the biggest gain would be if the French immigration service used technology to speed things up, .....

 

Electronic passport gates may help and so will the introduction of ETIAS, but unless they significantly change the arrangements before getting to the border check point, those measures will have little overall effect.

Unless there's increased accommodation in the departure lounge, I can't see them changing much and we will be stuck with delays, whether there are passport checks or not.

 

If we go back to the original topic of introducing more services and possibly a competitor, how would the extra passengers be dealt with, considering the current capacity problem?

 

 

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Hmm so what you are saying is the French are quite happy for there to be no routine customs checks then for the best part of 30 years. Strange how the world hasn't fallen in o the French state gone to ruin as a result....

 

 

 

Its not so much as Eurostar being fundamentally 'different' in terms of the need for customs facilities - its rather the intelligent observation that the French and Belgians do not require the same facilities that the UK does with respect to arriving passengers. Last time I looked both countries were not falling apart through illicit imports and as developed western nations neither seem to have significant problems in terms of tackling smuggling even though they simply let arriving folk walk directly off the platforms. Trying to make out that the UKs approach is the only way of doing things is an unfortunate trait of the English and gives rise to a misguided sense of superiority we like to pretend we have over other nations.

 

Your insistence on the need for extensive customs facilities is thus in my view not supported by the evidence. Comparisons with airports or ports are actually pretty meaningless because in the case of the former incoming persons come from a whole host of countries (not just the EU) which significantly increases the risk of smuggling while at ports you have motor vehicles which can smuggle things in far grater numbers than a person with a suitcase can. Granted our exit from the EU complicates things - but if the French can find ways of coping with a external EU border which does not require routine customs checks then so can we.

 

Given the international terminal at St Pancras is far smaller than Waterloo (yet the Siemens built stock can carry even more passengers than the old 373s that terminated at Waterloo) and there are constant issues surrounding overcrowding of the departure facilities, removing as much unnecessary facilities as possible (thus facilitating the realoctaing of space) would make a massive difference to not only the customer experience but the smooth running of the whole operation. You might even be able to free up some space for a competitor... and that is the relevance to this thread. 

Phil what French and Belgan Customs do or don't do is up to them although I'd sooner come across French or British immigration folk than the bunch stationed at Brussel Zuid who outdo most others I've ever come across for rudeness and delaying people passing their checkpoint.

 

But - repeat - what Customs do at Eurostar terminals is down to the country concerned and the way Customs worked at Waterloo and - certainly in terms of what you actually see - the way they work at St Pancras is no different from what you see at  numerous other points of entry to the UK.  The facilities they have are - unless things have changed a lot - very much what they say they need to do their job effectively

 

So if you don't like it take it up with them, or your MP, instead of repeating it ad infinitum on here because whatever you say here is unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on the workings of HMRC.

[Nick C]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The Uk isnt that bad, but I did once arrive at Norwich Airport to find it closed in the middle of the afternoon. I had to wait for someone to open it. My flight to Amsterdam was checked in with a hand written boarding pass, and the whole process from door opening to boarding (inc checkin, security, passport checking, boarding even the shop was done by the same 2 people, who happened to be man and wife, she even looked vaguely like Alan Partridge).

Flying back from Santorini a few weeks ago, we went through security as usual, then went down to the border post to the non-shengen area, and found it deserted! Other people were just walking straight through, but knowing that I needed a exit stamp, we waited - and sure enough, once the border guards turned up, everyone who'd gone through were shepherded back out again...