Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[number6]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Given there were several instances in the early days of persons buying a ticket to Lille (Eurostar departures from Paris were integrated into the TGV one serving that city - unlike the Brits the French were quite happy for domestic and international passengers to mix) but not alighting there while destroying any paperwork in the bogs so as to try and sneak into the UK you can see why a Government wanting to look 'tough' in matters of migration quite likes kettling incoming arrivals....

 

In the early days [pre Brexit] this would have been just fare evasion rather than 'sneaking into the UK'! 

 

[MidlandRed]

As a regular domestic user of St Pancras International pre 2019, and occasional one since, using mostly South Eastern High Speed and sometimes transferring between that and EMR, Thameslink and more frequently to the Underground, occasional on foot to Euston, I don’t recall ever seeing congestion anywhere in the station except at the South Eastern or EMR barriers. Most certainly not for Eurostar. 
 

However, I used the station on one occasion about a year ago and took the wrong turning from the underground, emerging into the east side of the concourse at the Euston Road end - I was astonished to see a queue from Eurostar across the front of all the retail premises and the entire length of the east side, along the south side of the ticket office concourse, and out and back down the west side of the road outside. Apart from Covid, from which passenger numbers have, from what I’ve read, recovered to say max 70-80% of previous levels, only one thing has happened since then that would affect throughput in such a way. Of course this was predicted, along with chaos at Dover and everywhere else that people need to cross our newly taken control of borders (and poo pooed as scaremongering by fellas who’ve turned their attention now to prestige banks). In order to manage what appears to be a predicted regular occurrence, there are barriers in place along the sections I’ve mentioned. 
 

Presumably St Pancras International was never designed to have a non EU border in it and the arrangements now required cause the problem. That there’s little opportunity to increase international capacity is hardly surprising and it shouldn’t be forgotten that St Pancras is a major domestic interchange station rather than the Cinderella it used to be when purely the southern terminus of the MML.  

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It is a pretty meaningless comparison - LCY is built around a frequent but low volume operation while Eurostar (due to the need to fit in with CT train paths and infrastructure constraints) needs to operate huge trains at a relatively sparse frequency (by domestic standards).

 

If you want to compare airports you should be looking at ones which regulatory have to handle large aircraft departing at relatively low frequencies - these will need to be very different from LCY to function effectively

I would reccomend travelling LCY to see both volume exit and entry.

its passenger footprint is comparable to Eurostar, exit and entry.

Having lived minutes from it, I was a bit of a regular.

 

Whilst theoretically 800 may detrain and walk out of customs in a 20 minute or so time frames on Eurostar, LCY can theoretically accommodate 800 in a 20 minute timeframe also, but with the added constraint of passport checking also… and in a comparable passenger space footprint to St Pancras which does not require it.

 

of course two Eurostars may arrive at once, but at that point StP falls over for a while, ive seen that too.

Adding security buildings to the concourse I dont see a footprint issue… theres loads of it, more than is visibly used down stairs.

 

I think its a bit nebulous anyway, I think the issue isnt space, its political.. and its easier to move mountains than politics.

Edited August 3, 2023 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

The Chunnel is and remains a symbol of European and primarily Anglo-French co-operation. The existence or otherwise of the EU doesn't change the fact that the Chunnel was built and Eurostar services operate.

 

So was Concord(e).  A magnificent engineering feat in its day. 

But when it became obsolete, they chose not to build a newer more technologically advanced replacement.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Your suggestion has 'not got lost in the noise' - its a very sensible idea.

 

....BUT....

 

There was no reason why Waterloo International couldn't have been designed to allow arriving passenger to simply walk off the end of the international platforms and into the Domestic station either- yet the station was deliberately designed to not facilitate that. 

 

That says to me the UK Government are adamant that any international arrivals must process through what amounts to a surveillance corridor* before allowing them to finally escape into the UK proper even if they have been checked upon departure. Whether that is for customs or border force needs I'm not sure.

 

Given there were several instances in the early days of persons buying a ticket to Lille (Eurostar departures from Paris were integrated into the TGV one serving that city - unlike the Brits the French were quite happy for domestic and international passengers to mix) but not alighting there while destroying any paperwork in the bogs so as to try and sneak into the UK you can see why a Government wanting to look 'tough' in matters of migration quite likes kettling incoming arrivals....

 

The fact that the nature of St Pancras means its not viable to have a massive trench in front of the international platforms changes nothing if the official stance is that passengers need additional processing upon arrival. And given the anti migrant hysteria pedalled by the right wing press I don't see any political party being wiiling to change that (even if the reason is more customs than border security related)!

 

 

*you don't think its just to make things awkward do you - much like they used to (and might still) get cars arriving off the ferry to drive through an apparently empty shed with humps in it and look to see if there was any unusual suspension behaviour that might indicate smuggling, the same still happens in airports and at St Pancras - the artificial bottlenecks give ample time to spot anything deemed suspicious

 

You seem to keep missing the point Phil.  The only entry check of any sort carried out at St Pancras is by HMRC in the form of Customs and even that uses the Red & Green channel system.  There is no immigration control for passengers arriving at St Pancras - passports are checked before people are allowed to board; the same applies in the opposite directon.  Putting it in plain English arriving Eurostar passengers get no sort  of immigration processing at St Pancras .  And the Lille loophole was closed years ago.

 

Every time I have travelled on Eurostar - mainly via Waterloo on too many occasions to count but also several times via St Pancras - I have seen nobody bur occasional Customs Officers when leaving the station after getting off an arriving train.  Repeat - absolutely no sign of any other sort of officialdom whatsoever except during the period after on-train passport checks had ended and before UK passport checks were introduced in Paris.

 

Attempts at illegal entry on Eurostar fizzled out a long while back  After all nowadays all the illegals need to do is paddle across in a rubber dinghy and hope they don't drown in the process.  And strange to relate this country seems to do absolutely nothing to stop tens of thousands of them coming ashore after crossing a rather big trench that was created by nature.

[The Stationmaster]

42 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I would reccomend travelling LCY to see both volume exit and entry.

its passenger footprint is comparable to Eurostar, exit and entry.

Having lived minutes from it, I was a bit of a regular.

 

Whilst theoretically 800 may detrain and walk out of customs in a 20 minute or so time frames on Eurostar, LCY can theoretically accommodate 800 in a 20 minute timeframe also, but with the added constraint of passport checking also… and in a comparable passenger space footprint to St Pancras which does not require it.

 

Much quicker that 20 minutes.  I'm not sure if I've still got the notes pf my stop watch timings but the platform should be clear of arriving passengers within a bit less than 10 minutes of train arrival.  That then allowed a minimum of 15 minutes  for train servicing, particularly the jobs requiring use of vehicles of various sorts needing to get to trainside, before allowing outbound passengers onto the platform no earlier than 10 minutes before dearture.  And that 35 minute allowance could even be achieved on the platform at Waterloo International with the worst access arrangements.

[Morello Cherry]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The problem isn't the timetable - it's the layout of St Pancras.  The timetable has to be built around flights of two trains through the Tunnel and there are  basically two flights per hour available - that is it.  Alter that and the trans will have to run more slowly through teh Tunnel - if paths are available among the Shuttles and they'll miss existing paths in France and Belgium (and beyind when that is needed).

 

Waterloo International was designed around that starting point - in fact the whole timetable and terminal operation had to be very carefully integrated and that included the turnround time at Waterloo which was an essential part of making the plan work.

 

When we saw the early plans for St Pancras a number of us were - to put it mildly - horrified because we just couldn't see how it would work.  The area to deal with outward passengers was too small; the entrance/exit arrangements to/from the platforms were insufficient; and worst od all the train servicing access to the platforms was terrible.   We were called all sorts of names for saying the place wouldn't work but exactly what we forecast very rapidly happened as trains could not be turned round quickly enough - the 35 minutes originally allowed (from train arrival to same train departing) soon increased to over 40 minutes and that, so I understand, subsequently further increased.  One of the consequences is that some inward trains have to depart to Stratford once they've unloaded to release a platform for a later arrival or a train coming in from Stratford to form a departure - and there aren't really enough platforms anyway should things go even slightly  off plan.

 

The only real advantage St Pancras has over Waterloo is that it has a double track approacjh instead of a single line although in some respects - apart from moving empty trains - that doesn't matter because of the other features that form the shape of the trainplan.   The odd thing about the whole British end of the Eurostar story is that in its Waterloo phase there was a really well planned superb terminal arrangement but what in all honesty was a second rate route for very high speed trains.  Now there is a really good very high speed route terminating at a less than ideal, and definotely not first rate, terminal.

 

I make no claims to understanding timetabling and I am not disputing the necessity of flights etc but just to say that there are periods where Eurostar runs more than 2 trains an hour through the tunnel and this is when things break down in London.

 

You have a timetable that doesn't work with the facilities available and so something has to give. In the case of Eurostar, the thing that has 'given' has been the trains to places like EuroDisney. Or the give is passengers having a nightmare boarding experience.

 

There are I would suggest certain 'pinch points'  during the day at St Pancras. Looking at the services for tomorrow, I've highlighted the times when in my experience the facilities breakdown and the timetabling doesn't help. It is when you have 6 departures in 90 or 120 minutes, but most crucially when they are trying to send out 4 in 60 minutes.

 

 

13.01 Brussels

13.31 Paris

14.01 Paris   

14.04 Brussels   

14.31 Paris

15.04 Brussels

 

 

17.31 Paris

18.01 Paris

18.13 Amsterdam

18.34 Paris

19.01 Paris

19.04 Brussels

 

My entirely unscientific observations I'd also suggest that the mid afternoon traffic tends to be slightly more touristy so either families - hence slow to process (explains EuroDisney) or 'less frequent' travellers who are not necessarily the quickest making the backlogs worse. It is only the very early or the very late trains that tend to be business travellers only.

 

Now, I really don't know what Eurostar can do other than potentially try to spread out some of the journeys (there is no 10.01, 12.01, 17.01, 19.3x). 

 

I have absolutely no doubt that there are sound reasons as to why the timetable is the way in which it is and why there are these bunches and gaps in the timetable. But the reality is that when the timetable has these bunches of departures this is when the terminal in my experience is at its worst.

 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

You seem to keep missing the point Phil.  The only entry check of any sort carried out at St Pancras is by HMRC in the form of Customs and even that uses the Red & Green channel system.  There is no immigration control for passengers arriving at St Pancras - passports are checked before people are allowed to board; the same applies in the opposite directon.  Putting it in plain English arriving Eurostar passengers get no sort  of immigration processing at St Pancras .  And the Lille loophole was closed years ago.

 

I’m not missing the point - but if there is no reason for making everyone filter through a set of narrow corridors to exit the international platforms why do it?

 

The layout at St Pancras easily lends itself to a Paris style exit from the platforms and even Waterloo could have had that facility with a slightly different design.

 

But no - for reasons unknown someone in the UK seams to think the current arrangement is required. As such I’m trying to come up with a reason - and all I can think of is someone in the Home Office thinks that getting people shuffle through narrow corridors to exit the intentional station is beneficial for security or customs reasons - because one things for sure it isn’t to give them a great introduction to the UK!

 

If you have a better explanation I would be interested to know what it is. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by phil-b259

[Morello Cherry]

15 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I’m not missing the point - but if there is no reason for making everyone filter through a set of narrow corridors to exit the international platforms why do it?

 

The layout at St Pancras easily lends itself to a Paris style exit from the platforms and even Waterloo could have had that facility with a slightly different design.

 

But no - for reasons unknown someone in the UK seams to think the current arrangement is required. As such I’m trying to come up with a reason - and all I can think of is someone in the Home Office thinks that getting people shuffle through narrow corridors to exit the intentional station is beneficial for security or customs reasons - because one things for sure it isn’t to give them a great introduction to the UK!

 

If you have a better explanation I would be interested to know what it is. 

 

My general experience is that when heading off the train at St Pancras is there are usually around half a dozen border people standing around, doing nothing other eyeing people up in a way to make people feel unwelcome. Every now and again you will see them taking apart the luggage of a non-white traveller.

 

I believe the phrase is 'security theatre'.

 

[Grovenor]

Take out the down escalators and there will be plenty of room for said border people to stand around and harass people leaving straight off the platform ends, plenty of room for a couple of tables and an X-ray machine to deal with suspicious baggage, and even for an interview room and body scanner for those suspected of drug smuggling.

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Take out the down escalators and there will be plenty of room for said border people to stand around and harass people leaving straight off the platform ends, plenty of room for a couple of tables and an X-ray machine to deal with suspicious baggage, and even for an interview room and body scanner for those suspected of drug smuggling.

Agreed - so if the current setup is not strictly necessary why do it? Home Office paranoia / wanting to ‘act tough’ is the only explanation I can come up with.

 

I guess the only issue of what you describe ‘out in the open’ so to speak may not be preferred as (1) If a person starts objecting creating a scene it’s going to be highly visible and (2) It would be easier for a person ‘make a run’ for it if they wanted to escape compared to the current setup with its winding corridors and several sets of doors.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

My general experience is that when heading off the train at St Pancras is there are usually around half a dozen border people standing around, doing nothing other eyeing people up in a way to make people feel unwelcome. Every now and again you will see them taking apart the luggage of a non-white traveller.

 

I believe the phrase is 'security theatre'.

 

'Border people' do not search luggage - that is an HMRC job in teh case of arriving passengers.  I reckon the only people likely to feel unwelcome are those who have something to hide - which is why HMRC carry out certain luggage searches. (which happens to be their job).

[Morello Cherry]

I disagree. It is an old canard that only the guilty would object. Racial profiling is racist profiling, however it is dressed up. It is all performative BS. Security theatre to pander to the holders of the Daily Mail worldview, and its only achievement is to make the border experience more unpleasant for non-white or non-British people.

 

Funny how none of this security theatre is necessary for passengers from the UK crossing over the hard Schengen border and getting out inside the EU. At Rotterdam for example,  I can just cross the platform and get on a train travel to wherever I like within the Schengen zone and not have my passport or bag checked again. The nearest you come to it is maybe Brussels and that is hardly in the same league.

 

The security theatre element, is what will kill any potential start up. Even if they did create a Stratford to Lille (or where-ever) service the cost of the performative security which the company will have to bear will be crippling because Stratford/Ebbsfleet, will have to have the same set up as St Pancras etc rather than be set up in the more enlightened way the Dutch, Belgian and French authorities welcome arrivals from the Eurostar.

 

And even if the UK were to stop thinking it is 1940 and adopt a more enlightened approach to people entering the country from Europe, the new company would still hit the problem that the EU via the French have taken back control of their borders. Unfortunately, that border is about 10 metres after the security scanners at UK terminals. Oh well, the British electorate made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

On 03/08/2023 at 21:55, Morello Cherry said:

 

My general experience is that when heading off the train at St Pancras is there are usually around half a dozen border people standing around, doing nothing other eyeing people up in a way to make people feel unwelcome. Every now and again you will see them taking apart the luggage of a non-white traveller.

 

I believe the phrase is 'security theatre'.

 

 

In a few weeks we will be off on a rail tour to Italy using Eurostar and at St Pancras station its the customs who are hanging about, we went through immigration at Garde du Nord. the customs officers are there looking out for those who wish to break the law and their stance is on purpose to unsettle would be transgressors.  Having been to a limited extent been involved in retail security one after a while becomes accustomed to profiling potential shoplifters, as prevention is far better than confrontation. So being visible is a deterrent or rather the first line of defence

 

On a second point this statement made me smile " I like within the Schengen zone and not have my passport or bag checked again"  on my past 3 visits to Italy on the train between Chambury (France) to Turin (Italy) Italian border guards get on the train at the station before the border, they check everyone's documents !!  Needless to say the French reciprocate on the return journey. So much for freedom of movement in the EU !!!!    

 

I have no issue showing my documents when crossing borders, or for that if asked by police. They are there keeping me safe and I am grateful for that

 

Years ago we went to Spain in a large group of twenty somethings, one of the group was male and single, on both journeys he was called in by customs for a full baggage search, we thought (as he did) it was hilarious, clearly he had nothing to hide but was a single man travelling, he was white !! racial profiling no, age and status profiling yes.  

 

As for being inconvenienced by customs or border force, I have found Eurostar is far less stressful than Airports  

[Morello Cherry]

You can always find exceptions to the norm. I might be remembering incorrectly I've yet to experience border checks travelling by train between France-Belgium-Netherlands. Nor checks on the German-Dutch or German-Austrian borders, Austrian-Italian,  Austrian-Hungarian or Austrian-Slovene borders.

 

I've experienced hard checks on the Hungarian-Romanian, Slovene-Croatian borders, (the Schengen border) and  very hard checks (given that like the UK it is outside the EU) on the Moldovan-Romanian border.

 

I can't comment on Gare du Nord because I don't travel to there from the UK, and the last time few times I was in France my journey started within the EU and I had no border checks.

 

It is security theatre to make people think something is being done but is actually doing nothing other than making things harder for ordinary travellers, and actually providing little to no real security benefits. Anything they do stop is insignificant low level low hanging fruit.

 

The border arrangements are optional and a government choice. You don't have to run your border like it is checkpoint Charlie, only if you are into macho posturing for segments of the electorate.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

You can always find exceptions to the norm. I might be remembering incorrectly I've yet to experience border checks travelling by train between France-Belgium-Netherlands. Nor checks on the German-Dutch or German-Austrian borders, Austrian-Italian,  Austrian-Hungarian or Austrian-Slovene borders.

 

I've experienced hard checks on the Hungarian-Romanian, Slovene-Croatian borders, (the Schengen border) and  very hard checks (given that like the UK it is outside the EU) on the Moldovan-Romanian border.

 

I can't comment on Gare du Nord because I don't travel to there from the UK, and the last time few times I was in France my journey started within the EU and I had no border checks.

 

It is security theatre to make people think something is being done but is actually doing nothing other than making things harder for ordinary travellers, and actually providing little to no real security benefits. Anything they do stop is insignificant low level low hanging fruit.

 

The border arrangements are optional and a government choice. You don't have to run your border like it is checkpoint Charlie, only if you are into macho posturing for segments of the electorate.

 

Prior to Schengen border checks in western Europe was only on major routes, in practice most (minor) border crossings were check free.

 

Personally I believe if we have rules these rules must be adhered to, otherwise we will have anarchy. There are many rules I either think are unnecessary or wrong, however for the greater good I do my best to comply, as far as border controls are concerned as a country we are far too lax when it comes to enforcing them. In my opinion our border force when ever I have come back into this country have been efficient and polite and I have never had anything that would cause customs any issues. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear

 

As far as immigration is concerned there has always been checks going out and coming back into this country, the UK has never been in Schengen and if you have travelled to Europe obviously neither customs or border force has caused you any issues

 

Security is very necessary to stop criminals and terrorists entering this country, plus those who ignore our entry requirements   

[Morello Cherry]

You have nothing fear from border force not because you have nothing to hide but because of your race, age, class and gender. You think UK border arrangements are lax because the hostile environment is not applied to you. Border force are not going be rude, unpleasant to you and physically kick your bags as I saw happening to a traveller with poor verbal English a couple of weeks back because you have the 'right' profile.

 

 

You are the target viewing audience for security theatre and it is successful. 'look how tough we are on outsiders.'

 

I hate to break it to you, but those terrorists and criminals you fear are domestic not international, and performative security at St Pancras/UK airports isn't going to do anything to stop them.

 

And guess what, domestic security in the Schengen zone hasn't collapsed since its creation either.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

I disagree. It is an old canard that only the guilty would object. Racial profiling is racist profiling, however it is dressed up. It is all performative BS. Security theatre to pander to the holders of the Daily Mail worldview, and its only achievement is to make the border experience more unpleasant for non-white or non-British people.

 

Funny how none of this security theatre is necessary for passengers from the UK crossing over the hard Schengen border and getting out inside the EU. At Rotterdam for example,  I can just cross the platform and get on a train travel to wherever I like within the Schengen zone and not have my passport or bag checked again. The nearest you come to it is maybe Brussels and that is hardly in the same league.

 

The security theatre element, is what will kill any potential start up. Even if they did create a Stratford to Lille (or where-ever) service the cost of the performative security which the company will have to bear will be crippling because Stratford/Ebbsfleet, will have to have the same set up as St Pancras etc rather than be set up in the more enlightened way the Dutch, Belgian and French authorities welcome arrivals from the Eurostar.

 

And even if the UK were to stop thinking it is 1940 and adopt a more enlightened approach to people entering the country from Europe, the new company would still hit the problem that the EU via the French have taken back control of their borders. Unfortunately, that border is about 10 metres after the security scanners at UK terminals. Oh well, the British electorate made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

 

 

 

Oh dear - HMRC don't engage in racial profiling, they've no need to and it's downright ludicrous to suggest that they do.

 

As far as the security element is concerned it's all down tio UK and French legislation in resect of the Channel Tunnel.  If you want if changed please ask Parliamentary etc representaicves in both countries to prompt their respectives Govts to alter their jointly agreed primary legislation and the various procedures in place for enforcing it.  And it has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration or racial profiling ot anything other than Channel Tunnel security.  Border controls are something entirely different and there are no UK border concrol checks for arriving passengers in place at St Pancras.

 

So there are three different things involved and they should not be conflated -

1. Channel Tunnel security procedures and checks - they area legal requirement of both Govts for passengers joining a Eurostar

2. Immigration controls - generally now applied only at the point of embarkation although there might still occasionally be 100% checks at a destination station (as used to happen at Waterloo and still I have heard happens in Brussels).  No racuial profiling, when they're done they are 100%

3. HMRC Customs checks - carried out in respect of arrivals in the UK; they are nothing to do with security or passports because they are no more than Customs checks and no racial profiling, they can and do pick out anybody because that;s their job.

 

So all that has changed since the early days is that Item 2,   Passport checks, have been taken off the trains (in order to save a considerable amount of Eurostar's money) and is now carried out at a terminal usually at point of embarkation but Brussels differs a bit.  In having passports checked outbound towards France etc at Waterloo,  Eurostar is no different from Eurotunnel and the principal Cross -Channel ferry route from Dover.  Far better I think not to be allowed onto the train or ferry in the first place rather than not being allowed off it when you arrive at the other end (but views on that may diffe)r.

 

Oh and from personal experience (on short sea and hovercraft routes - not Eurostar) - I can tell you that when you're stopped for 'further investigation' by UK Immigration people it is nothing like what you suggested was happening.  In reality the first thing they do is take you away and keep in a room before they get to work on your passport or whatever.

[The Stationmaster]

52 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

You have nothing fear from border force not because you have nothing to hide but because of your race, age, class and gender. You think UK border arrangements are lax because the hostile environment is not applied to you. Border force are not going be rude, unpleasant to you and physically kick your bags as I saw happening to a traveller with poor verbal English a couple of weeks back because you have the 'right' profile.

 

 

You are the target viewing audience for security theatre and it is successful. 'look how tough we are on outsiders.'

 

I hate to break it to you, but those terrorists and criminals you fear are domestic not international, and performative security at St Pancras/UK airports isn't going to do anything to stop them.

Wanna bet?   I know for a fact that more than a couple were arrested at Waterloo in the past.  BUT - I reiterate yet again - the security check is carried out at the departure station not at the arrival station where, trather obviously, arriving passengers are not required to pass through scanners etc.

 

And once again - Border Force do not check baggage - that is HMRC  - don't conflate the two.  And as I mentioned above I have in the past - more than once - been detained at UK passport controls and taken awy for 'further investigation'.  I know why it happened butIi can assure you it had nothing whatsoever to do with my colour, clas,s gender or any other nonsense because terrorists and potential come in all shapes, colours and sizes - my problem was that a known Black September terrorist was using a UK passport with a similar name to mine and my surname is fairly uncommon.  Hence it was all too readily recognised by Passport officials and off I was marched.  And the sort of stuff you're going on about pails into insignificance when you meet Immigration's more specialised officers - all very polite but somewhat menacing when you don't know why you've been picked out..

[The Stationmaster]

On 03/08/2023 at 21:20, Morello Cherry said:

 

I make no claims to understanding timetabling and I am not disputing the necessity of flights etc but just to say that there are periods where Eurostar runs more than 2 trains an hour through the tunnel and this is when things break down in London.

 

You have a timetable that doesn't work with the facilities available and so something has to give. In the case of Eurostar, the thing that has 'given' has been the trains to places like EuroDisney. Or the give is passengers having a nightmare boarding experience.

 

There are I would suggest certain 'pinch points'  during the day at St Pancras. Looking at the services for tomorrow, I've highlighted the times when in my experience the facilities breakdown and the timetabling doesn't help. It is when you have 6 departures in 90 or 120 minutes, but most crucially when they are trying to send out 4 in 60 minutes.

 

 

13.01 Brussels

13.31 Paris

14.01 Paris   

14.04 Brussels   

14.31 Paris

15.04 Brussels

 

 

17.31 Paris

18.01 Paris

18.13 Amsterdam

18.34 Paris

19.01 Paris

19.04 Brussels

 

My entirely unscientific observations I'd also suggest that the mid afternoon traffic tends to be slightly more touristy so either families - hence slow to process (explains EuroDisney) or 'less frequent' travellers who are not necessarily the quickest making the backlogs worse. It is only the very early or the very late trains that tend to be business travellers only.

 

Now, I really don't know what Eurostar can do other than potentially try to spread out some of the journeys (there is no 10.01, 12.01, 17.01, 19.3x). 

 

I have absolutely no doubt that there are sound reasons as to why the timetable is the way in which it is and why there are these bunches and gaps in the timetable. But the reality is that when the timetable has these bunches of departures this is when the terminal in my experience is at its worst.

 

Simple situation is that Eurostar paths through the Tunnel are flighted in pais with the two trains 3 minutes apart = this is done to allow the R Eurostars to travel faster than Shuttles reducing the time they spend in the Tunnel and minimising delay in their timetable.  The two flights are set 30 minutes apart to create a regular pattern in the Tunnel and for Eurostar.

That was one of the several critical elements involved in creating the Eurostar trainplan and it is effectively set in stone.  But teh stone isn't immovable because the original contract allowed for 'domestication' of the Eurostar paths when Tunnel capacity usage reached a partcular.  Domestication would reduce Eurostar speeds to match those of Shuttles meaning that instead of a flight of two using three standard oaths they would only use two.  A single Eurostar running at non-domesticated speeds would consume two standard paths - hence the flighting saved a path.

 

So waterloo was designed to kae arrivals and departures on teh basis of departure times 3 minutes apart and also arrival times being 3 minutes apart.  Arrival and departure had to be displaced from each other by a sufficient margin to allow reliable working over the single approach plud s creating the required amount of turnround time between a train arriving and then subsequently departing.  Turnround was planned to take 35 minutes and achieved that margin with no problems as the station was laid out to permit rapid clearance of arriving passengers from the platform then suitable time to service the train before time was available for departing passengers to join the train.  SNCF incidentally didn't believe 35 minutes was possible so I took two of them plus a stop watch and demonstrated (at the worst platform for access) that it was easily achievable.

 

But the arramngemnts at St Pancras are, basically, not anything like as good as they were at Waterloo and it was rapidly found that 35 tiunrounds could not be achieved - which otherwise unnecessary empty train movements between the station and Stratford depot.

 

So what has happened is that the timetable has imposed on St Pancras requirements it can't meet - exactly as a number of us said it would IF it was the sole Rurostar termins.  the counter argument was that some trans would still run from Wasterloo plus others would run. to/from UK regional centres without calling at St Pancras.  But the Regional trains had already been dumped by then and the decision to withdraw from Waterloo came not long after.  And passengers are now suffering teh consequences.

 

Which paths are used is another complex subject but boils down to three things -

1. Which times are considered commercially desirable/necessary (hence. e.g.  peak hour half hourly interval departures.

2. What efficient use of the train fleet and crews allows, and

3. To what extent the white period (if it still remains??) on LGV Nord prebvvents certain paths being used.  For example during the white peri d - when the LGV is closed for maintenance work - it would not in any case b epossible to runa 12.01 from London to paris even assuming there is a commercial reaon for doing so and teh resources can be made available to do it.  It was my undersanding some time back that it was intended to either remove or compress the white period but I don't know if that has happened.  It usd t be one hour but that hour moved along the LGV n meaning it applied at a different time at say Lille than it did at the Paris end of the LGV

 

Finally don't frget that trains from London are nowadays buta small part of the tital ruynning on LGV Nrd and the LGV into Belgium - so it probably isn;t possible to alter London trains without the impact spreading over parts of SNCF and SNCB  and,  by impliaction onto NS and DB because taht was how teh whole thing was put together in the first place.  Not exactly set in stine but a massive amount of work internationally to change it all and i doubt eole would be happy tp do that for teh sake ofa branch line t London (which is how some saw. it back in the '90s)

[phil-b259]

On 05/08/2023 at 13:32, The Stationmaster said:

Oh dear - HMRC don't engage in racial profiling, they've no need to and it's downright ludicrous to suggest that they do.

 

As far as the security element is concerned it's all down tio UK and French legislation in resect of the Channel Tunnel.  If you want if changed please ask Parliamentary etc representaicves in both countries to prompt their respectives Govts to alter their jointly agreed primary legislation and the various procedures in place for enforcing it.  And it has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration or racial profiling ot anything other than Channel Tunnel security.  Border controls are something entirely different and there are no UK border concrol checks for arriving passengers in place at St Pancras.

 

So there are three different things involved and they should not be conflated -

1. Channel Tunnel security procedures and checks - they area legal requirement of both Govts for passengers joining a Eurostar

2. Immigration controls - generally now applied only at the point of embarkation although there might still occasionally be 100% checks at a destination station (as used to happen at Waterloo and still I have heard happens in Brussels).  No racuial profiling, when they're done they are 100%

3. HMRC Customs checks - carried out in respect of arrivals in the UK; they are nothing to do with security or passports because they are no more than Customs checks and no racial profiling, they can and do pick out anybody because that;s their job.

 

So all that has changed since the early days is that Item 2,   Passport checks, have been taken off the trains (in order to save a considerable amount of Eurostar's money) and is now carried out at a terminal usually at point of embarkation but Brussels differs a bit.  In having passports checked outbound towards France etc at Waterloo,  Eurostar is no different from Eurotunnel and the principal Cross -Channel ferry route from Dover.  Far better I think not to be allowed onto the train or ferry in the first place rather than not being allowed off it when you arrive at the other end (but views on that may diffe)r.

 

Oh and from personal experience (on short sea and hovercraft routes - not Eurostar) - I can tell you that when you're stopped for 'further investigation' by UK Immigration people it is nothing like what you suggested was happening.  In reality the first thing they do is take you away and keep in a room before they get to work on your passport or whatever.

None of which answers the fundamental question of why can’t passengers simply walk off the platform ends at St Pancras like they do in Paris!

 

Why is it that the U.K. feels the need to route people the narrow corridors and artificial bottlenecks (not to mention eat into space which could be used to expand departure facilities).

[hayfield]

On 05/08/2023 at 12:40, Morello Cherry said:

You have nothing fear from border force not because you have nothing to hide but because of your race, age, class and gender. You think UK border arrangements are lax because the hostile environment is not applied to you. Border force are not going be rude, unpleasant to you and physically kick your bags as I saw happening to a traveller with poor verbal English a couple of weeks back because you have the 'right' profile.

 

 

You are the target viewing audience for security theatre and it is successful. 'look how tough we are on outsiders.'

 

I hate to break it to you, but those terrorists and criminals you fear are domestic not international, and performative security at St Pancras/UK airports isn't going to do anything to stop them.

 

And guess what, domestic security in the Schengen zone hasn't collapsed since its creation either.

 

I have nothing to fear as I adhere to the rules. I am happy to comply with requests from authority, I may not like it at times (parking wardens) but they have a job to do and if I comply it makes their job easier and our meeting is kept to a quick and pleasant one. If I kicked off then rightly they will treat me differently

 

As far as Border force is concerned, I only encounter them in France and every time there has been no issue. As for security checks what's the hassle of going through the security arch and my baggage being x-rayed !! Simple solution if you do not like it don't go 

 

Just because some criminals and terrorists are home grown does not mean we stop looking for those wishing to come into the country.

 

Simply if you dislike the system don't use it. I dislike being treated like an animal at airports, herded from one pen to another and charged a fortune for the privilege. Guess what I decided not to use them and chose a holiday where I can travel by train

 

I get fed up with those who always look to be the victim. When I first started going abroad we were told to respect other countries laws and customs, if this is a problem then don't go.  Treat others with the respect you expect from others, it seems to work, 

[hayfield]

On 05/08/2023 at 13:43, The Stationmaster said:

Wanna bet?   I know for a fact that more than a couple were arrested at Waterloo in the past.  BUT - I reiterate yet again - the security check is carried out at the departure station not at the arrival station where, trather obviously, arriving passengers are not required to pass through scanners etc.

 

And once again - Border Force do not check baggage - that is HMRC  - don't conflate the two.  And as I mentioned above I have in the past - more than once - been detained at UK passport controls and taken awy for 'further investigation'.  I know why it happened butIi can assure you it had nothing whatsoever to do with my colour, clas,s gender or any other nonsense because terrorists and potential come in all shapes, colours and sizes - my problem was that a known Black September terrorist was using a UK passport with a similar name to mine and my surname is fairly uncommon.  Hence it was all too readily recognised by Passport officials and off I was marched.  And the sort of stuff you're going on about pails into insignificance when you meet Immigration's more specialised officers - all very polite but somewhat menacing when you don't know why you've been picked out..

 

At St Pancras on out wards the station security ask passengers to go through a security archway and all other items are x-rayed, nothing to do with either Border Force or Customs and Exercise, on return a similar thing happens at Garde du Nord, arriving at St Pancras both Border Force and Customs do watch passengers leave the secure area, no doubt this is mainly inelegance led and for show 

[jjb1970]

Try entering the EU from outside the EU with a passport issued in a developing country and see how wonderful and open door EU entry points are. I voted remain and am still a supporter of being in the EU but the idea that the EU is a haven of liberal and easy immigration and welcomes outsiders with open arms compared to the UK pandering to rabidly racist daily mail readers is nonsensical. Having sat through meetings in which EU delegations have advocated letting migrants drown in the Mediterranean Sea and having been involved in cases where ships have fulfilled their legal duty and rendered assistance to people at sea then ended up stuck in limbo unable to land the people rescued I don't think we need to feel any sense of being less tolerant or welcoming. As a result of personal circumstances I have more family links and am friendly with more Asian people than white British people and none have ever complained of racial profiling or shoddy treatment by border force or HMRC other than the complaints I share about how awful the experience can be to get through immigration at Heathrow ( but no worse than other major European airports).

[fulton]

sorry miss sent

Edited August 9, 2023 by fulton