Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[jjb1970]

I think that the costs of living with mediocre management of border controls are considered preferable to the doing what's needed to make it work by the powers that be. Even if it is an embarrassing mess. The dislocation caused by Brexit was a reasonable excuse during the transition but that it's still a mess speaks of either stinginess and a refusal to invest, laziness or ineptitude among those charged with making it work (or a combination of all three). I regularly fly into Heathrow and it can be almost embarrassing, in fairness the other European airports I use are no better and flying into the US is even worse.

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think that the costs of living with mediocre management of border controls are considered preferable to the doing what's needed to make it work by the powers that be. Even if it is an embarrassing mess. The dislocation caused by Brexit was a reasonable excuse during the transition but that it's still a mess speaks of either stinginess and a refusal to invest, laziness or ineptitude among those charged with making it work (or a combination of all three). I regularly fly into Heathrow and it can be almost embarrassing, in fairness the other European airports I use are no better and flying into the US is even worse.

Thing is it cant be that hard.

 

if 1 immigration officer used to process 60 people an hour and costs £60 an hour (yes everyone has a manager and so forth).. its £1 a person.

So if the time now halves due to-more indepth scanning.. then its £2 a person and double the resources accordingly.

 

This is paid for by passengers in their airport taxes anyway, if it needs an extra £1 or £2 a passenger so be it, most would pay more to exit immigration faster and easier.

immigration isnt supposed to be a profit centre, but it neednt be starved of resources either, its a service and if demand needs more, increase it, its being paid for directly by those consuming it.

Edited July 31, 2023 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

Perhaps HM Government prefers to put limited Border staff at ports and airports where delays are most visible and vocal, Eurostar can be hidden as it's seen as 'just railways'.

 

Given the embarrassing debacle of 2022 holiday season, you can understand why they want the airports to work this year.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Wasn't the recent problem with passport delays at Dover, due to the French border service not providing enough staff, rather than being an issue with the UK border force?

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Only from personal experience, travelling from the UK to EU destinations over the last 18 months, I can't help feeling all this talk of increased passport checks and delays, has been somewhat overblown and exaggerated.

Last month we travelled from St. Pancras International, to Bordeaux, via Paris (Eurostar + TGV inOui).

The early Sunday morning train from St. Pancras was full and a long queue had formed long before the doors to check-in were opened.

Because there were hundreds of people already in the queue, when check-in commenced, it was a slow process to get as far as the security check and baggage x-ray stage.

That and the ready formed large queue were the real hold ups.

 

Once through that, passport checks were very quick, with no delay.

It certainly didn't appear to take any longer, with the extra requirement to stamp the passport, than it did pre-Brexit, when they just checked the passport was valid.

Returning to the UK is no change to what went before, except for the EU exit check, to ensure you hadn't overstayed your 90 days.

 

It's the same with flying (we have flown between the UK and various EU member countries, at least 6 times in the last 2 years).

Almost no difference, apart from having to have that physical stamp put on your passport.

 

p.s. Our return from Bordeaux to London, was via Lille, with a change of the scruffy old single deck TGV onto a much nicer Brussels to London Eurostar train.

Passport control at Lille was incredibly quick. No queue and no delay.

.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[nightstar.train]

6 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Wasn’t the argument that having passport checks at Ebbsfleet meant fewer staff to carry out checks at St Pancras? Staff at Ebbsfleet would also be underemployed due to far fewer trains compared to them working at St Pancras. I don’t remember there ever being a suggestion of employing more staff…

 

Isn't a large part of the problem that the numbers staffing passport control are decided by the French border agency and Eurostar have no control over them? Unlike a flight where you go through French border control over in Paris, and thus those staff can process flights from everywhere. On Eurostar you go through the French border control in London (and vice-versa in Paris), so on arrival you walk straight off the train and into Gare Du Nord with no more checks. I remember last summer when there was chaos at Dover the blame was being placed at the feet of French border service for not providing enough staff to man all the booths at Dover. My takeaway from all this is that the French are reluctant to provide more border staff over here. 

 

Another problem is that St Pancras is so poorly designed. This is just my observations from a trip in April. But the space for Eurostar is far too small. The customs hall seemed to be enormous and empty when we returned. The area for queue lanes before you even enter Eurostar seems enormous and was certainly not full of people. The customs/passport area was very cramped. The waiting area is far too small, as is the cafe. It really needs a complete redesign and dare I say getting rid of some shops to provide more room. By contrast Gare Du Nord seemed larger and not as crowded. Probably helped by having windows and not feeling subterranean. Customs area was still crowded, but didn't seem as cramped as London. 

[APOLLO]

The trains are ready, currently having bigger bike racks fitted !!

 

 

 

Brit15

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 30/07/2023 at 09:45, black and decker boy said:

There appear to be 22 daily direct flights from London’s airports to Paris so that suggests plenty of potential travellers.

 

On 30/07/2023 at 09:57, adb968008 said:

More flights than Eurostars..

 

14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

......Yes flights still continue between London and Paris but much reduced compared with pre Eurostar days ......

 

The number of flights between the 2 capitals, varies between 20 and 23, according to the day of the week.

The number of flights increases in September.

 

That's actually more flights than in pre-Eurostar days, although back then, BA and Air France ran more flights and used mostly larger wide bodied aircraft on the route out of Heathrow.

Conversely, there are more flights out of Gatwick and the aircraft used have larger seating capacity than in the "old days".

So less seats available out of Heathrow, but more flights and therefore more seats out of Gatwick than before (larger aircraft too),

Add to that the EasyJet flights out of Luton, which didn't exist prior to the start of the original Eurostar service.

 

What has been lost though (since a couple of years prior to Covid), are the London City to Paris flights, which IIRC were about 5 or 6 per day.

 

 

.

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

 

The number of flights between the 2 capitals, varies between 20 and 23, according to the day of the week.

The number of flights increases in September.

 

That's actually more flights than in pre-Eurostar days, although back then, BA and Air France ran more flights and used mostly larger wide bodied aircraft on the route out of Heathrow.

Conversely, there are more flights out of Gatwick and the aircraft used have larger seating capacity than in the "old days".

So less seats available out of Heathrow, but more flights and therefore more seats out of Gatwick than before (larger aircraft too),

Add to that the EasyJet flights out of Luton, which didn't exist prior to the start of the original Eurostar service.

 

What has been lost though (since a couple of years prior to Covid), are the London City to Paris flights, which IIRC were about 5 or 6 per day.

 

 

.

I read that as less business, more leisure flights.

i certainly dont think Eurostar ate LCY to Paris flights, if anything covid and brexit but not Eurostar, it may have if they had used Stratford as intended.

 

But when you say pre-Eurostar ? Are you meaning 1990’s ?

The whole travel sector has exploded since then.

Edited July 31, 2023 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

I read that as less business, more leisure flights.

 

It probably is, but then again, international independent leisure travel has mushroomed since the early/mid 1990's.

Right across the board.

 

Then again, having used Eurostar to both Brussels and Paris, only once a year since 2021 (3 return trips), travelling in both standard premier and business premier, including during the week, from personal observation I'd guess that the loads consist of 90% leisure travellers.

 

 

 

 

.

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It probably is, but then again, international independent leisure travel has mushroomed since the early/mid 1990's.

Right across the board.

 

Then again, having used Eurostar to both Brussels and Paris, only once a year since 2021 (3 return trips), travelling in both standard premier and business premier, including during the week, from personal observation I'd guess that the loads consist of 90% leisure travellers.

 

 

 

 

.

Tourist travel has recovered much faster than business travel.

 

Business travel relies on the person your visiting also going to work.

If they wfh, then your travel became a zoom meeting.

 

I have one customer who has no office, and no two employees in the same town, they are scattered across their country 100% WFH.

Before covid they were 100% one town, all in office.

Getting a team meeting is near impossible.

 

Another in Belgium, has a Dutch manager, who lives and works from home in Malaga, Spain.

 

My meetings post covid are much more social based than before covid, but the actual travel is a fraction of what I used to and is getting hard to coordinate, outside of zoom.

 

I have concerns business is becoming too complacent on existing contacts, or poaching employees with contacts, than actual hunting and facetime.

Long term that will burn out relationships, but short term its massively cheaper using zoom, than a plane.

Sure the B word impacted business, but Covid affected business travel considerably more.

Edited July 31, 2023 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

25 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

......i certainly dont think Eurostar ate LCY to Paris flights, if anything covid and brexit but not Eurostar, it may have if they had used Stratford as intended.....

 

LCY to Paris flights really "took off" (pun intended) in the late 90's and throughout the 00's, despite the growing popularity of Eurostar during that time.

 

Air France subsidiary, CityJet Ireland, used to operate something like 5 or 6 flights a day on LCY-CDG, as Air France flights.

CityJet, who also flew quite a few other routes out of LCY, got into financial difficulties, after the 2008 crash.

A few years later on, Air France owned, Belgian operator, VLM, who also ran various routes out of LCY, took over the flights, until they also folded.

It all happened before Brexit and a few years before Covid.

 

(note: CityJet were sold off and are now a wet lease airline operator, flying a large fleet of CRJ regional jets for Scandinavian Airlines)

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

47 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

.....But when you say pre-Eurostar ? Are you meaning 1990’s ?

The whole travel sector has exploded since then.

 

With regards to pre-Eurostar flights, I meant the 1980's and early 90's.

The travel sector has indeed exploded since the early/mid 90's.

 

 

.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

LCY to Paris flights really "took off" (pun intended) in the late 90's and throughout the 00's, despite the growing popularity of Eurostar during that time.

 

Air France subsidiary, CityJet Ireland, used to operate something like 5 or 6 flights a day on LCY-CDG, as Air France flights.

CityJet, who also flew quite a few other routes out of LCY, got into financial difficulties, after the 2008 crash.

A few years later on, Air France owned, Belgian operator, VLM, who also ran various routes out of LCY, took over the flights, until they also folded.

It all happened before Brexit and a few years before Covid.

 

(note: CityJet were sold off and are now a wet lease airline operator, flying a large fleet of CRJ regional jets for Scandinavian Airlines)

 

 

.

I used to use LCY average 2-4 times a week the, VLM were a fantastic airline. AF tried competing with its city jet (we used to call them minibuses with wings), especially as they were running domestic UK flights too upto EDI. Then there was Air scotland and KLM with its Fokkers too. BA were a bit behind the ball at LCY but eventually caught up with its Embraers and of course the New York flights.

 

I lived 10 mins from the airport on the IOD and used to joke If i got out of bed at 6am and timed it right I would be boarding a flight at 630am… 20 min guarenteed checkin those days.

 

Ive a bunch of take off videos from there.. those Fokkers took off like fat ducks waddling down the runway, you felt every bump, and the wings/props were above you !

Edited July 31, 2023 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

Apart from the network of services from LCY, CityJet also flew quite a number of Air France regional flights out of CDG.

For example, they operated the AF flights from CDG to Dublin, Birmingham, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

They operated a fleet of Avro Rj85's.

 

 

Later on they were repainted as.....

 

 

 

.

 

[DY444]

On 31/07/2023 at 14:49, Ron Ron Ron said:

Only from personal experience, travelling from the UK to EU destinations over the last 18 months, I can't help feeling all this talk of increased passport checks and delays, has been somewhat overblown and exaggerated.

 

 

Quite.  When I travelled on Eurostar pre-Brexit, I always thought the St.Pancras Eurostar waiting area was a chaotic, cramped, over crowded mess with wholly inadequate facilities wedged into a confined space with no room whatsoever for expansion.  And that's when services were running normally.  I'm not saying the border controls situation hasn't made life difficult but this implicit idea that now is hell and before was an unqualified triumph is rewriting history to make a point.

Edited August 1, 2023 by DY444

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Quite.  When I travelled on Eurostar pre-Brexit, I always thought the St.Pancras Eurostar waiting area was a chaotic, cramped, over crowded mess with wholly inadequate facilities wedged into a confined space with no room whatsoever for expansion.  And that's when services were running normally.  I'm not saying the border controls situation hasn't made life difficult but this implicit idea that now is hell and before was an unqualified triumph is rewriting history to make a point.

Would it be too simple a solution for passengers to egress at the platform ends of St P, like in Brussels and Paris ?

Then use the undercroft to expand the waiting area ?.. much of it on arrivals is waste space anyway.

[ruggedpeak]

This article about Greenpeace makes a point I agree with, that basically rail is far more expensive than air. Whilst as a semi-frequent traveller to the UK from Switzerland I can accept the time penalty that may come from going by train I can't afford the financial cost. Flights can be as low as £25 one way from Geneva to London but generally £60-120 depending on the variables, comparable Eurostar prices are £95 if you are lucky but full fares can be well over £400.

 

I think this is the major problem for Eurostar and any competitor if they want to increase volumes. Flying can be a pain but if I save one or more hundreds of pounds I will live with it. The same is true even in the UK where Network Rail execs fly around the UK as it is cheaper. On the border issue if the Euro twits want to make life difficult that is up to them and the rail industry will have to find solutions like aviation has had to over security etc.

 

https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/train-travel-and-switzerland-70-percent-more-expensive-flying

 

[Mallard60022]

49 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

This article about Greenpeace makes a point I agree with, that basically rail is far more expensive than air. Whilst as a semi-frequent traveller to the UK from Switzerland I can accept the time penalty that may come from going by train I can't afford the financial cost. Flights can be as low as £25 one way from Geneva to London but generally £60-120 depending on the variables, comparable Eurostar prices are £95 if you are lucky but full fares can be well over £400.

 

I think this is the major problem for Eurostar and any competitor if they want to increase volumes. Flying can be a pain but if I save one or more hundreds of pounds I will live with it. The same is true even in the UK where Network Rail execs fly around the UK as it is cheaper. On the border issue if the Euro twits want to make life difficult that is up to them and the rail industry will have to find solutions like aviation has had to over security etc.

 

https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/train-travel-and-switzerland-70-percent-more-expensive-flying

 

Euro Twits?

Do explain that one.

p

[Forward!]

If capacity at St Pancras is a problem this new 'competitor' could always go back to plan A and carry on up the West Coast Mainline to let everyone get off at Manchester Picadilly?

 

I'll get my coat....

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/07/2023 at 08:18, adb968008 said:

On crowds at St Pancras.

 

Surely closing Ebbsfleet and concentrating on St Pancras is simply compounding the problem, by forcing everyone to St Pancras ?

if Ebbsfleet was open, some pressure on St Pancras would be reduced ?

 

Why was Ebbsfleet closed ?

lack of passengers or too expensive ?

 

 

Don't forget two things are involved and both are costs to be carried by Eurostar.  First there is the security checks which need the right personnel and scanning equipment.  Secondly UK Border Force presumably still charge Eurostar for providing Immigration staff at their stations in England (if those stations are open for international passengers).  And third HMRC also require staff and facilities and I suspect that Eurostar might also have to pay for them.

 

So there is a lot of added cost the instant you start dealing with passengers who will travel through the Channel Tunnel in the shape  of (mandatory) security checks.  Then there is the hard EU border element requiring Immigration controls plus the Customs checks.  That's a lot more cost on top of handling internal UK passengers plus there is also a need to fully segregate them from anyone passing through the Channel Tunnel in either direction.

 

Chuck in an inadequate terminal capacity for international traffic at St Pancras and Eurostar are where they are with minimal options to get anywhere else.

[Ron Ron Ron]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget two things are involved and both are costs to be carried by Eurostar.  .....

 

From my own observation I would add, the extra number of Eurostar staff, used to marshal, direct and assist the long queues of waiting of passengers, prior to and at check-in,.

That's before entering security, passport controls and the departure lounge.

 

.

[phil-b259]

On 30/07/2023 at 10:26, SM42 said:

With the right infrastructure I  place for passport control it should be a relatively quick process to get say 400 people onto a train. 

Just needs them to turn up earlier. 

 

Le Shuttle seems to be able to get you checked in, through passports and onto a train in about an hour and that's with several people in a car. 

 

Eurostar and indeed the government have had plenty of warning aboutadditional passport processing times, yet they seem to think that it will all be OK and need do nothing. 

 

Similarly coming back to the UK, there is no reason why passengers have to detain for passport and customs checks. 

 

This can be done on train in around 45 minutes ( if my trip to Belarus 5 years ago is anything to go by. )

 

It would still be quicker than a plane,  and do forget internal flights in France are banned. 

 

It could work with a bit of imagination, cash, planning and cooperation with the French on passport and customs ( the last bit is probably going to be hardest politically)

 

Andy

 

(1) And where exactly are you going to put all those people who have turned up earlier?  The waiting area behind security is woefully small at St Pancras with no room to expand it so all making people get there even earlier  will do is make them suffer for longer.

 

(2)  Le shuttle (nor the ferry operators for that matter) do not require the entire contents of the vehicle to be unloaded and put the an x-ray scanner (that is ‘impractical’ and would offend the road lobby not to mention cause a masive stink in  the right wing press) - yet that is exactly what UK LAW requires Eurostar to do.

 

(3) The right wing political establishment and their supporting media want to look ‘strong’ when it comes to border maters so they can speak to the anti-immigration / racist part of the British electorate. Making people troop off the train and be checked in a deactivated facility means they can sweep the now empty train for ‘illegals’ while passengers (well the non British ones) can be subjected to hostile questioning etc.

 

(4) ‘Banning’ things is against the free market principles the right wing political establishment (and their client media) so dear. The British Government has explicitly refused to ban internal flights saying doing so would be damaging for the economy and the airline industry….

 

Now do you spot a theme here…. the reasons why things are done as they are is not because the alternatives are impractical - rather it’s a certain political ideology combined with a hatred of foreigners which has given us the present situation.

Edited August 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

On 01/08/2023 at 20:24, adb968008 said:

Would it be too simple a solution for passengers to egress at the platform ends of St P, like in Brussels and Paris ?

Then use the undercroft to expand the waiting area ?.. much of it on arrivals is waste space anyway.

What and let all those filthy foreigners into our Green and plenty land without proper checks! (as the Mail, Express, GB News, the Tory party, ex UKIP supporters etc would say). No, that’s simply not acceptable  - instead we must get them to troop past U.K. border staff so they can be properly inspected and all those hordes of illegal immigrants dealt with….

 

[adb968008]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

What and let all those filthy foreigners into our Green and plenty land without proper checks! (as the Mail, Express, GB News, the Tory party, ex UKIP supporters etc would say). No, that’s simply not acceptable  - instead we must get them to troop past U.K. border staff so they can be properly inspected and all those hordes of illegal immigrants dealt with….

 

Plenty of space at the gates at platform level for a few chairs, desk and a scanner thats downstairs.

 

how much space do they need ?, considering passports were already check3d by Uk immigration before boarding, this is merely “red/green channel customs”, so 99% just go straight out. The coralling point for sniffer dogs, etc is dead easy too.. its the railings between the two power cars.

 

this is taken from the glass, that makes the sterile area, theres as much space again and more behind the camera.

 

This is a station exit, designed to be a station exit, that is not being used as a station exit.

 

Theres more space for customs here than at London City Airport and thats way more people, and continual streams.

 

space isnt the issue, I maintain its political.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by adb968008