Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, Nick C said:

The trouble is for many of us, it's not two extra days holiday, but two fewer days at the destination - so much as I'd rather travel by train (I too hate the airport experience, as does Mrs C), we're constrained by how much time we can take off work.

 

 

Nick 

 

I accept that in some ways that is if the inconvenience of air travel is worth the extra time at the resort

 

We have had a few holidays in France using the car, got so fed up with overnight ferries to Brittany that we spent 2 days traveling using Le Shuttle and an overnight stay both ways. Its far more civilised, far less stressful and tiring and usually means only an extra days leave, though once we left late afternoon and stopped overnight in France an hour away from the tunnel

 

Now being retired the summer 2 week holiday is not a must anymore, even so given the opportunity making the journeys less stressful is important is important to us and the bonus we see it as a longer holiday, even coming home

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Nick 

 

I accept that in some ways that is if the inconvenience of air travel is worth the extra time at the resort

 

We have had a few holidays in France using the car, got so fed up with overnight ferries to Brittany that we spent 2 days traveling using Le Shuttle and an overnight stay both ways. Its far more civilised, far less stressful and tiring and usually means only an extra days leave, though once we left late afternoon and stopped overnight in France an hour away from the tunnel

 

Now being retired the summer 2 week holiday is not a must anymore, even so given the opportunity making the journeys less stressful is important is important to us and the bonus we see it as a longer holiday, even coming home

This is where getting more reasonably-priced night trains would be great - if you could leave home at lunchtime, get to London for an early-evening Eurostar (or competitor!), then board a sleeper in Paris or Brussels to get you to the med or central Europe by breakfast, that makes the train much more time-competitive.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I mentioned earlier in this thread, that Mrs Ron and I recently (2 months ago in June) travelled by rail from St. Pancras to Bordeaux.

Eurostar to Paris Gare Du Nord.

TGV inOui from Paris Gare Montparnasse to Bordeaux.

We travelled with another couple, our friends.

Business class tickets on both legs.

 

Like Hayfield, we stayed overnight at a hotel, just around the corner from St. Pancras, the night before our early morning Eurostar departure.

The whole journey was an experience, but there's no way we'd do it again, for this or a similar trip.

We would fly every time. 100%

There were some positive aspects to the train journey, but the list of reasons for not wanting to repeat it, far outweighs the pluses.

 

Arriving at St. Pancras early in the morning, just over an hour before the scheduled departure time, we found a long queue had already formed, waiting for check-in to open.

When it did open, the queue progressed very slowly, all the way to the security check and baggage x-ray.

(.....as I said earlier, passport control was a breeze after the security stage)

That was an uncomfortable, frustrating start to the day and not the best experience, before we'd even started the journey.

 

Eurostar to Paris and our later return from Lille to London, were both quite pleasant, particularly as we were served breakfast on the way out and a light meal on the return.

A very clean and tidy train and very friendly and welcoming staff.

Full marks to Eurostar.

 

Arrival at Gare Du Nord was not the most pleasant experience though, even at mid morning on a Sunday.

The station was crowded and whether it was our imagination or not, it felt like there was a slightly intimidating atmosphere.

I will not go into that any further !

Fortunately we were met off the train by a tour rep  (well we found him nearby) and handed over to someone who guided us through the crowds, out into the nearby streets, to our waiting mini-bus taxi.

It was just as busy outside the station, as we wheeled our full sized suitcases over the bumpy and cobbled pavements and across a busy road to the pick up point.

 

One hot, stuffy transfer across Paris, which took about 45 minutes, due to traffic and a big community cycling ride closing the streets....   and we found ourselves having to hang around for two and a half hours at Montparnasse, before our TGV to Bordeaux.

We found a reasonable cafe where we could while away the time. Not the most salubrious place to wait, nor a good comparison with decent airport lounge facilities.

 

TGV inOui Business class.

Nice, comfortable seats, upstairs, but no service at seats.

Luckily, we had brought our own supplies.

Just over 2 hours non-stop.

However, having to lug your own cases onto the train and upstairs was not as easy as it sounds.

A small group of fellow travellers, who turned out to be heading to the same end destination, spontaneously formed a human chain to help each other and some older passengers to get their luggage on board.

 

The return journey via Lille, instead of Paris, was awful.

The single deck, old TGV, was very tired and scruffy, both inside and out.

There was no space for the large amount of luggage that various passengers were travelling with and it had to be piled up at the end of the carriage, partly blocking the aisle.

Instead of the 2 hours plus on the outbound leg from Paris, this return trip, stopped at several cities on its way back towards the outskirts of the capital.

I can't remember now, offhand, but I think it took over an hour longer because of constantly diverting off the LGV to make the intermediate stops.

However, once finally reaching the outskirts of Paris, the journey to wind our way and circumnavigate around the southern and south eastern outskirts of the city was incredibly slow, with numerous hold ups at signals.

It think it took something like another two and a half hours more to reach Lille.

That was one of the longest, most uncomfortable and boring rail journeys I have ever taken.

Mrs. Ron and both our friends were not impressed.

 

 

People have been moaning about St. Pancras, but it's miles better than the stations we experienced in Paris and Bordeaux.

The transfer across Paris on the outbound journey, was not pleasant, even though we had a nice friendly driver.

The return journey via Lille, instead of Paris, was very long, tiring and uncomfortable.

 

However, the biggest negative was having to drag your luggage around with you, all the way, through stations and on and off trains, especially with the large step up from the continental platforms and being seated upstairs on the train.

We were on a two week holiday that required us to to take a fair bit of clothing and various stuff.

We didn't even have our largest cases, just the two  mid-sized ones and a holdall and rucksack.

 

If you travel by air, you drop your luggage off at the beginning of the journey and collect it at the other end.

On this rail trip, we had to lug the damn things everywhere, up stairs, where a ramp was closed off, on and off trains.

Add this to a poor station experience and the total length of time to get from A to B.

It's just wasted time, when all we really wanted was to get to our destination and back home again after the holiday was over.

We are not doing any long distance rail in future, if we can help it.

 

 

 

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[hayfield]

I remember our first trip, where our tour manager stood guard over of suitcases at the end of the coach (old Eurostar train), as 9 years ago there were thefts on the train, he also warned us about the criminality at Garde du Nord and quickly guided us to the coach park at the side of the station, seemingly a much safer exit for tourists. Likewise he gets us into the departure lounge on the way back

 

Used St Pancras 3 times for return journeys, none of the departures of arrivals stick in my mind (unlike various airports) other than once when there were delays after an overnight train broke down, It was a bit crowded for 15 mins thats all 

 

As for Eurostar, the new trains are less spacious, but for us far more pleasant than being on a plane.

 

The duration of the coach transfer can vary in length, Bastille day was the worst time wise, but I do enjoy the coach trip especially when we pass the disused (viaduct) main line station the architecture is very interesting

 

I have only ever travelled from Garde du Lyon, the weight between trains can be a bit long but essential with the Paris traffic hold ups. I find the cafe's fine and we tend to wait up stairs. As you say early starts its essential to have somewhere to grab some lunch

 

I think we have been lucky as French trains seem to be of better quality than their British counterparts, though with all the new units that might have changed. What I do find is the graffiti is far worse in France. In Italy we have had the best of both worlds, from the super fast Red Arrow (Turin to Venice) to some old but at the same time corridor stock Italian Reveria (south of Genoa) to Milan. worse was a local service Melan to Como. But certainly the TGV and Italian main line trains are usually very pleasant.

 

Over night stays usually include either a free afternoon or morning to mooch around, for us the travel experience is as important as the holiday, we are neither beech dwellers or sun worshipers and not escaping stressful jobs. Far more interesting seeing the countryside pass than a view above the clouds. But if you just want to get there train travel must be frustrating.

 

Whilst I am not one of those eco warriors who lecture others all the time, but I guess use planes have big cars and large houses, I feel quite smug at doing my bit to reduce carbon. My own view is air travel should carry a large tax to be used to retrieve the carbon expended, many cheap flights are unnecessary and their costs should be commensurate to the damage they cause to our enviroment

[Nick C]

11 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Arriving at St. Pancras early in the morning, just over an hour before the scheduled departure time, we found a long queue had already formed, waiting for check-in to open.

When it did open, the queue progressed very slowly, all the way to the security check and baggage x-ray.

(.....as I said earlier, passport control was a breeze after the security stage)

That was an uncomfortable, frustrating start to the day and not the best experience, before we'd even started the journey.

Thats's no different to most airports though?

 

11 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

We found a reasonable cafe where we could while away the time. Not the most salubrious place to wait, nor a good comparison with decent airport lounge facilities.

You've found an airport with decent lounge facilities? Please say where! Most of the ones I have been though are just glorified overpriced shopping centres - especially Heathrow and Gatwick...

 

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I remember our first trip, where our tour manager stood guard over of suitcases at the end of the coach (old Eurostar train), as 9 years ago there were thefts on the train, he also warned us about the criminality at Garde du Nord and quickly guided us to the coach park at the side of the station, seemingly a much safer exit for tourists. Likewise he gets us into the departure lounge on the way back

 

Used St Pancras 3 times for return journeys, none of the departures of arrivals stick in my mind (unlike various airports) other than once when there were delays after an overnight train broke down, It was a bit crowded for 15 mins thats all 

 

As for Eurostar, the new trains are less spacious, but for us far more pleasant than being on a plane.

 

The duration of the coach transfer can vary in length, Bastille day was the worst time wise, but I do enjoy the coach trip especially when we pass the disused (viaduct) main line station the architecture is very interesting

 

I have only ever travelled from Garde du Lyon, the weight between trains can be a bit long but essential with the Paris traffic hold ups. I find the cafe's fine and we tend to wait up stairs. As you say early starts its essential to have somewhere to grab some lunch

 

I think we have been lucky as French trains seem to be of better quality than their British counterparts, though with all the new units that might have changed. What I do find is the graffiti is far worse in France. In Italy we have had the best of both worlds, from the super fast Red Arrow (Turin to Venice) to some old but at the same time corridor stock Italian Reveria (south of Genoa) to Milan. worse was a local service Melan to Como. But certainly the TGV and Italian main line trains are usually very pleasant.

 

Over night stays usually include either a free afternoon or morning to mooch around, for us the travel experience is as important as the holiday, we are neither beech dwellers or sun worshipers and not escaping stressful jobs. Far more interesting seeing the countryside pass than a view above the clouds. But if you just want to get there train travel must be frustrating.

 

Whilst I am not one of those eco warriors who lecture others all the time, but I guess use planes have big cars and large houses, I feel quite smug at doing my bit to reduce carbon. My own view is air travel should carry a large tax to be used to retrieve the carbon expended, many cheap flights are unnecessary and their costs should be commensurate to the damage they cause to our enviroment

Understatement of the century.😀

Upstairs, as you put it, is rather more than fine. There is an eating place that goes by the name of Le Train Bleu. An ideal spot for lunch to set you up for the journey.

 

Bastille Day. Terrible for getting about, with many Metro staions closed and controlled areas, But a great day out if you plan where you want to go and don't book a restaurant that is in or near a restricted zone. The evening concert near the Eiffel Tower is a super eperience, but getting out to any form of public transport is a nightmare, even with local knowledge.

Bernard

[hayfield]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Understatement of the century.😀

Upstairs, as you put it, is rather more than fine. There is an eating place that goes by the name of Le Train Bleu. An ideal spot for lunch to set you up for the journey.

 

Bastille Day. Terrible for getting about, with many Metro staions closed and controlled areas, But a great day out if you plan where you want to go and don't book a restaurant that is in or near a restricted zone. The evening concert near the Eiffel Tower is a super eperience, but getting out to any form of public transport is a nightmare, even with local knowledge.

Bernard

 

 I wish !!

 

As we had dinner waiting for us later after buying a snack (down stairs) there is an elevated waiting area on the eastern side of the station. Garde du Lyon seems a much nicer place than Garde du Nord but as at all large stations its wise to be aware of those around you. Also it is a newer station which seems much brighter that the older Garde du Nord, but lacks the grandeur.

[Siberian Snooper]

The worst airport arrival that I experienced was landing at JFK about 15 minutes early, then sitting on the tarmac for around 45 minutes and then a 3 hour queue for immigration. Not an experience I wish to repeat any time soon.

 

I have  never experienced any problems at mainline railway stations, especially if you have some idea of where you need to go, next!

 

[Nick C]

46 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The worst airport arrival that I experienced was landing at JFK about 15 minutes early, then sitting on the tarmac for around 45 minutes and then a 3 hour queue for immigration. Not an experience I wish to repeat any time soon.

 

I have  never experienced any problems at mainline railway stations, especially if you have some idea of where you need to go, next!

 

The last flight I took started boarding 30m late, then sat on the tarmac for over an hour before takeoff, and another half hour on landing... At least on a train if it's delayed you can wander round, stretch your legs...

[The Stationmaster]

On 22/08/2023 at 20:27, burgundy said:

I spent a wet afternoon recently, trying to plan a journey from Bristol to Malaga by rail. I understood that it would be more expensive but I had not appreciated just how difficult it would be - notwithstanding the advice from the Man in Seat 61.  

The cost came out at roughly three times the airfare - without counting a night's accommodation on the way. OK; some things you can put down to the experience. However, I had not really thought through some of the other issues. Four different companies are involved so that you seem to need to allow an air gap between each leg of the journey, as, if you are delayed on one sector, another operator is hardly going to cover your ticket. 

Day 1 would involve Bristol to Paddington, St Pancras to Paris, a quick skip across Paris and then down to Nimes. If there were any delay on either leg to Paris, you could probably not make it to Nimes that night, which would  upset both your hotel reservation and your onward travel the following day. An option is therefore to spend a second night in Nimes and sightsee during the day to guarantee the connection.

Day 2 is all RENFE from Nimes to Madrid and from Madrid to Malaga. There is an hour to spare in Madrid Atocha which sounds as though it would be OK. The only problem here is that RENFE only seem to book a couple of months in advance, which makes it difficult to get the early booking discounts on other sectors. 

There are lots of things that governments could do to make rail travel more attractive, but the companies also need to get their act together if there is to be an effective European wide network.

In the early days of the railways, companies connected London to Bristol and Exeter to Bristol - and it took some while for the penny to drop that people might actually want to travel from Exeter to London or, heaven forbid, Birmingham. Since then, we have seen seen the growth of coherent networks within most countries (and decomposition again in this one). It is taking a real effort to construct a European wide network - rather than a series of connecting branchlines - but it is the only way if we are serious about making inroads on air travel. 

I am afraid that, at this stage, RyanAir looks quite attractive. 

Best wishes 

Eric     

I think experience can be a big help but everyone has to start somewhere in order to start amassing that experience.  With a fair helping of Brussels or Paris - London under my belt adding Köln was a doddle, Maastrictht was almost as simple (one extra change of train) as was the Rhine Vallley.   London to Ypres via Lille wasn't difficult withe the wife and young family either apart from forgetting that Armistice Day is a public holiday in Belgium and France - yes, public holidays can be a pitfall on even the simplest of routes.

 

Inter station changes in Paris are more of a challenge than changing from one route to another in Brussels but after you've done it once the second one is easier and the third ceases to be a worry (provided the train's on time of course).  So adding Lucerne. La Rochelle, Rennes, Rheims, and Berne to the list wasn't a major undertaking.     All really no more than building on experience.

 

My son's regular holidays in Croatia always involve return by rail - but he's adding that to previously developed experience on simpler journeys.     Hence even Marrakech to a Thames Valley branch terminus didn't worry him.

 

There is an amazing amount of connectability built into many mainland European timetables including numerous cross border (or several borders) routes.  But, as in Britain, connections won't be held forever, so you have to plan for contingencies and possible major delays.  Even the Swiss delay trains as a result of weekend engineering work (which is a nuisance when you have carefully planned you connections in Frankfurt and Brussels when aiming to get from Berne to Reading in a day.  So always think about what could happen instead of it all going smoothly.

 

And with Eurostar joining Thalys it might at last revive the connectability at Brussels which was built into the original Eurostar timetable but was ruined by the activities, or not, of Belgian border checks on arrival in Brussel.   It's not always down to the train operators. 

[hayfield]

My personal view is that when planning the channel tunnel rail links too little thought was put into onward travel, as said in the last post usually connections at regional stations are usually quite easily made simply by changing trains at the same main line station

 

But the issue arrives as most travellers have to exit either Garde du Nord or St Pancras when continuing ones journey to other parts of the respective countries. OK both cities have their underground connections, but these are really designed for commuters not those with luggage. I suppose in both cities historically most main line stations were built as termini with little thought of continuous onward travel, where as most regional city stations are hubs for onward travel

 

I guess having hubs  nearer the tunnel on both sides would also involve other issues and not be as convenient  as current arrangements

Edited August 27, 2023 by hayfield

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 minutes ago, hayfield said:

My personal view is that when planning the channel tunnel rail links too little thought was put into onward travel, as said in the last post usually connections at regional stations are usually quite easily made simply by changing trains at the same main line station

 

But the issue arrives as most travellers have to exit either Garde du Nord or St Pancras when continuing ones journey to other parts of the respective countries. OK both cities have their underground connections, but these are really designed for commuters not those with luggage. I suppose in both cities historically most main line stations were built as termini with little thought of continuous onward travel, where as most regional city stations are hubs for onward travel

 

I guess having hubs  nearer the tunnel on both sides would also involve other issues and not be as convenient  as current arrangements

 

I totally agree that not enough thought was put into creating connections/onward travel,

 

But this was not really a "railway problem". It was a political issue about "control of our borders". 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I guess having hubs  nearer the tunnel on both sides would also involve other issues and not be as convenient  as current arrangements

Isn't that the idea behind "Ashford International"?  Even if the "rest of the country" really turns out to be "south of the river" - after all nobody would really want to go to Wolverhampton or Halifax would they?

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Isn't that the idea behind "Ashford International"?  Even if the "rest of the country" really turns out to be "south of the river" - after all nobody would really want to go to Wolverhampton or Halifax would they?

If an 'open access' service provider was allowed to operate, then using Ashford or Stratford as a base might actually be a better idea than adding further congestion at St Pancras.

While a big bomb on 'God's own county' might be a good idea, I have nothing against Wolverhampton and its citizens.😃 

Bernard 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

My personal view is that when planning the channel tunnel rail links too little thought was put into onward travel, as said in the last post usually connections at regional stations are usually quite easily made simply by changing trains at the same main line station

 

But the issue arrives as most travellers have to exit either Garde du Nord or St Pancras when continuing ones journey to other parts of the respective countries. OK both cities have their underground connections, but these are really designed for commuters not those with luggage. I suppose in both cities historically most main line stations were built as termini with little thought of continuous onward travel, where as most regional city stations are hubs for onward travel

 

I guess having hubs  nearer the tunnel on both sides would also involve other issues and not be as convenient  as current arrangements

Yes and no.  A considerable amount of thought originally went into various connections in Brussels but as I said Belgian border control damaged what had been intended.  You could get a good connection. if you were lucky and planned your strategy for leaving the Eurostar arrival platfom but that was getting round a problem rather than resolving it.

 

Within Eurostar there was a lot of very narrow thought concentrated on 'city-to-city' although some of us did a lot of work on connections.   For example I was deeply involved in a DB led initiative to create a regular pattern London - various parts of Germany and Switzerland fully integrated connecting service via Brussels and Köln.   But while our DGM  favoured the idea the Virgin placed 'commercial' people in Eurostar weren't interested in that sort of thing.

 

Similarly SNCF very much viewed Lille as a connectional hub.  But British people tend not to think in terms of connecting trains and transfers for a variety of reasons - look at 'Ron Ron's recent post.  And now Eurostar are in any case going for yield because they have to.  Big city interchange in London and Paris isn't the end of the world - some of us have been changing between main line stations in London for years so doing it in Paris is just about learning a new place.  But at the same time look in Britain at the popularity of Cross Country's trains which enable people to avoid the cross-London transfer.

 

Where a competitor might score is to not use Gare du Nord but to run to another terminus in Paris which offers at least some connectional opportunities.  But that still means changing trains  even although it is at the same station - but on the other hand many people were quite happy to do that at Waterloo.

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Where a competitor might score is to not use Gare du Nord but to run to another terminus in Paris which offers at least some connectional opportunities.  But that still means changing trains  even although it is at the same station - but on the other hand many people were quite happy to do that at Waterloo.

 

 

Mike

 

The ability to just change trains I think is not an issue, As said Lille would be good as you can transfer to western and northern connections, but can you catch a TGV which bypasses Paris?

 

Then how interconnective is Ashford to any other rail areas other than the south east of London

 

As you say perhaps the only choices are London and Paris. Which to me is such a shame and drives customers to other forms of transport

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes and no.  A considerable amount of thought originally went into various connections in Brussels but as I said Belgian border control damaged what had been intended.

This statement puzzlers me - because the Eurostar train go Amsterdam I used last year arrived at an ordinary through platform at Brussels WITH NO BORDER / CUSTOMS CHECKS.

 

Last year and my friend were free to simply get off and go to another platform (we were connecting with a DB service to Cologne) completely unhindered - and this was AFTER the U.K. had left the EU when you would have thought  ‘borders / customs’ checks would have been more strict.

 

So what has changed in the past 12 months?

 

Given I believe that (1) this arrival into the ‘domestic’ platforms at midi was not an unusual occurrence and (2) the Belgian state has not descended into rack and ruin as a result of the procedures (or lack of) I experienced 12 months ago shows up the insistence on the UKs need for an arrivals for the politically driven nonsense it is…..

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Mike

 

The ability to just change trains I think is not an issue, As said Lille would be good as you can transfer to western and northern connections, but can you catch a TGV which bypasses Paris?

 

Then how interconnective is Ashford to any other rail areas other than the south east of London

 

As you say perhaps the only choices are London and Paris. Which to me is such a shame and drives customers to other forms of transport

There were an increasing number of TGVs calling at Lille which used the jonction route (via Marne-la-Vallée) but that's going back some time and I don't know the current state of play.  While it's not so bad heading east/south coming the other way is a pain because you have to leave the platform and go upstairs to go through the Tunnel security check then back down to a platform to get on a Eurostar.  And - unless it's been enlarged - the security check area is not very big.  And at latform level it's not the nicest station around.

 

Ashford didn't achieve the expected level of passengers in its early days; I think the local market, despite ample car parking and various connecting rail routes, simply isn't big enough.  Great shame because it seems to have been quite a well thought out station.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 But British people tend not to think in terms of connecting trains and transfers for a variety of reasons - look at 'Ron Ron's recent post.  And now Eurostar are in any case going for yield because they have to.  Big city interchange in London and Paris isn't the end of the world - some of us have been changing between main line stations in London for years so doing it in Paris is just about learning a new place.  But at the same time look in Britain at the popularity of Cross Country's trains which enable people to avoid the cross-London transfer.

 

 

East-West rail should help here too, but the railway industry has is a real image problem in this country.  The British dislike of connecting trains is partly the result of political decisions, and was not helped by privisation.  If the trains are all run by one organisation, people are more likely to see it as a unified service; as it is, they get the impression that the attitude towards lost connections is that it's the other company's fault - Your Problem, not Ours.  Discounted ticketing such that your ticket might only be valid on a particular service also discourages people from journeys that require a change of trains.  Our fares are higher than most of Europe and reliability is another issue - are you going to go by train if Line A is running but there's engineering works on Line B and there's a strike on Line C?

 

The cross London transfer is a real problem because the Underground is unsuitable for passengers with luggage, especially at peak times, as well as needing to change twice rather than once with a proper connecting service.  Many tube stations require a long walk down lots of corridors and tunnels and ticket barriers and still not disability friendly so it's quite a faff despite having an excellent service frequency.  It's an inheritance we are still living with since the Victorian city fathers decided you can't build a railway into London because they didn't want the iron horse to frighten real horses.   OK so there have been recent improvements with Thameslink and Crossrail, but it's still a problem for many journeys, and it still militates against using rail as a matter of choice for many people in the provinces.  If the green lobby want to encourage wider use of public transport, they might usefully try to persuade the powers that to be to treat Kings Cross and St Pancras as a single station and rename it London Central Station (and don't reopen York Road as a third one!) to imply that it has good connections.

 

For a short while we even had Anglo-Scottish services that ran to Waterloo International.  It was such a slow route round London that they ran empty.

 

Single manning and the associated removal of Guards Vans from many trains, particularly suburban sets, may have provided slight increases in seating capacity but it makes it awkward to travel with bulky luggage or push-bikes.

 

Politicians keep talking about an integrated transport policy, but it has yet to happen in this country.  Instead it looks as though we'll end up forcing people to use public transport by closing our cities to road users with congestion charges and ULEZ zones.  Which in practice will force a lot of traders to increase prices, withdraw from certain markets and result in increased unemployment and reduced GDP as workers can't afford to go into cities.

[jjb1970]

I think something rail enthusiasts can forget is that for a huge number of people the railways are a mystery. When I lived in Milton Keynes the railways were a pretty important part of life for many but I knew plenty of people even there that rarely if ever used trains. When I lived in Cumbria before moving to work in London most of the people I knew (and still know up there) never used the train and the railways were like a foreign country to them. Which means that what seem simple and straightforward to people who use the train with any regularity can seem an enormous faff with enormous potential to go horribly wrong for those for whom rail travel is an exotic and rare experience.

 

It's not just trains, I know a lot of people who pay a significant premium to flew direct because they worry about transferring between flights. And airlines tend to have a better image for looking after passengers than train companies. That may be deserved or not deserved (in my experience it's when things go wrong that the extra cost of using a full service airline is worth it) but it's clearly a widely held opinion among people I know. 

[Siberian Snooper]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

This statement puzzlers me - because the Eurostar train go Amsterdam I used last year arrived at an ordinary through platform at Brussels WITH NO BORDER / CUSTOMS CHECKS.

 

Last year and my friend were free to simply get off and go to another platform (we were connecting with a DB service to Cologne) completely unhindered - and this was AFTER the U.K. had left the EU when you would have thought  ‘borders / customs’ checks would have been more strict.

 

So what has changed in the past 12 months?

 

Given I believe that (1) this arrival into the ‘domestic’ platforms at midi was not an unusual occurrence and (2) the Belgian state has not descended into rack and ruin as a result of the procedures (or lack of) I experienced 12 months ago shows up the insistence on the UKs need for an arrivals for the politically driven nonsense it is…..

 

Last summer I went to Antwerp, I alighted in Brussels, exited the platform, checked to confirm the time and platform, from which the train left and went for a coffee. No sign of any customs or immigration.

 

The return journey, required immigration checks in Brussels, before joining the train from Amsterdam. Not much room on the platform, once we were allowed up on to it.

 

 

[50A55B]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were an increasing number of TGVs calling at Lille which used the jonction route (via Marne-la-Vallée) but that's going back some time and I don't know the current state of play.  While it's not so bad heading east/south coming the other way is a pain because you have to leave the platform and go upstairs to go through the Tunnel security check then back down to a platform to get on a Eurostar.  And - unless it's been enlarged - the security check area is not very big.  And at latform level it's not the nicest station around.

 

Ashford didn't achieve the expected level of passengers in its early days; I think the local market, despite ample car parking and various connecting rail routes, simply isn't big enough.  Great shame because it seems to have been quite a well thought out station.

I used Ashford International once in the early days and was struck by how expensive the parking was. Other than that it was a decent enough experience but I never went that way again.

I had to change trains at Lille in both directions as it was a journey to/from Lyon and recall that Lille wasn’t a particularly pleasant place to do so.

[Ron Ron Ron]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

.........But British people tend not to think in terms of connecting trains and transfers for a variety of reasons - look at 'Ron Ron's recent post.  .......

 

I think you may have misconstrued the issues I raised in my post, Mike.

 

The principle of having to change trains in itself was not the problem for us.

It was the experience of having to lug heavy luggage from one side of Paris, to the other, on the outward journey, on top of having to lug said luggage, on and off trains through every stage of the journey.

 

On the return, the change at Lille Europe was very easy and fairly quick (including the security and border control check).

The issue with the connection via Lille, was the 5 hour journey from Bordeaux on a crowded, tatty, worn out TGV, that took over 2 hours to crawl from Massy, on the SW outskirts of Paris, to Lille.

 

 

.

[Nick C]

On 27/08/2023 at 09:35, Michael Hodgson said:

Isn't that the idea behind "Ashford International"?  Even if the "rest of the country" really turns out to be "south of the river" - after all nobody would really want to go to Wolverhampton or Halifax would they?

 

23 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ashford didn't achieve the expected level of passengers in its early days; I think the local market, despite ample car parking and various connecting rail routes, simply isn't big enough.  Great shame because it seems to have been quite a well thought out station.

The problem with Ashford is that it's not well connected to the railways outside of Kent, which makes it fairly useless as an interchange - just checking on national rail and the recommended route from here (Hampshire) is via St Pancras - at which point I might as well board the Eurostar there!

[jjb1970]

If dragging luggage around I tend to take a taxi between London termini, it adds to the cost but manoeuvring cases around the underground or London buses is a nightmare. 

 

It is a genuine advantage of air travel that you get rid of luggage at a bag drop and pick it up again at the other end. The disadvantage of course is if it gets misplaced or removed because the plane hits weight limits for cargo. Another advantage of paying more to travel in the good seats is that bags are tagged as priority and it is much less likely that you're left standing like a sore thumb waiting for a bag that isn't coming.