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EFE Rail - Autumn 2023 announcements inc LSWR 4-coach sets, LSWR vent van and N gauge J94

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phil_sutters

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34 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

Does the photograph you refer to have a date?  I'm just wondering how long the S&DJR van would have lasted in that livery.

1904. Having been built by the LSWR in 1901, it is already pretty shabby, with the lettering very faded.

I think that I read somewhere that the double door Midland derived version of the Road Vans were preferred by station staff and guards, to the sliding door LSWR versions, as they were quicker to access at stations where they collected and dropped off small consignments.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26349977/in/album/512561

Looking at the neighbouring photo in that album, the meat van version with appropriate chalked inscriptions would be nice - for those modelling anywhere between Burnham and Nine Elms! Although not readily seen, Colin Maggs says there is a restriction notice on it saying To run between Highbridge and Nine Elms.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26349981/in/album/512561

 

Edited by phil_sutters
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Graham_Muz

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8 minutes ago, MattR said:

 

Well, I went back and had a look and apparently all of mine were second-hand from Hatton's (£40, £42 and £51) so I guess my original statement was wrong. As an aside, I wonder if the EFE gatestock will appear in LSWR livery?

 

 

The Gate Stock as produced by KMRC/EFE is of the post 1930's conversions to SR air operation with the SR four window front ends, so would never have carried LSWR livery in this condition.

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Compound2632

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20 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

Does the photograph you refer to have a date?  I'm just wondering how long the S&DJR van would have lasted in that livery.

 

The caption says "photographed circa 1904"; the photo in fact shows No. 1218, not No. 1213, the subject of the model. Russ Garner's S&DJR Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886-1930 (S&DR Trust, 2000) has a note "photo = Serviced 31/6/04" presumably read off a better or larger print of this photo. The building of these ten vans was authorised in November 1901, so they were probably built during 1902. So if the date given for the photo is right, it's undoubtedly wearing the paint it was first outshopped in; it seems highly unlikely that it would have been repainted at an overhaul after only a couple of years in service. Of course that date only gives a "not before" date; the photo could have been taken just before the van's next service, which might be in 1906. In Southern Wagons Vol. 1 the photo is credited as W.O. Steele Collection but it is in origin a Derby official, DY8586.

 

Given that the S&DJR revenue goods wagons were divided between the two owning companies in 1914, as @Graham_Muz has noted, it's quite possible that some or all of these vans never got a full repaint in S&DJR livery. How long after 1914 it was before anyone got round to painting them brown is another question!

 

According to Southern Wagons Vol. 1 all ten went to the L&SWR at the division, so alas Midland livery is not an option...

 

Two were converted to meat vans; it seems uncertain whether this was before 1914 or after being taken into L&SWR stock: No. 1212 and EFE's No. 1213, according to Garner. There had been ten meat vans built at Eastleigh for the S&DJR at the same time as the road vans (also twenty cattle wagons); No. 1203 was photographed in very dark grey and with "Empty" chalked on it many times, along with "Burnham Box" four times, Southern Wagons Vol. 1 Plate 69, p. 42 (also credited to W.O. Steele Collection but in origin DY8588). These all went to the L&SWR in 1914. They had steel underframes, though as far as I can make out from Southern Wagons Vol. 1, the L&SWR equivalents only had wood underframes. So that's another variant for EFE!

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Tim Dubya

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1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

 

Does the photograph you refer to have a date?  I'm just wondering how long the S&DJR van would have lasted in that livery.

 

It's still in it now🤪

 

Screenshot_20230802-161538-453.png.d2fabfeb0633170c699ccf996ded6920.png

 

 

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Robin Brasher

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Thank you for the information about the goods van.  For me the production of E8641 LSWR cross country 4-coach pack in LSWR salmon and brown is wonderful news. These will be much more useful for me than the four and six wheel coaches which were getting obsolete for my model of the Swanage Railway.  I already have the BR (ex LSWR) three coach pack that I was going to repaint in LSWR livery but I never got round to it. 

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BMacdermott

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Hello everyone

 

Many congratulations to Graham 'Muzz' and EFE on the announcement of the LSWR Vans.

 

We listed both the Low and High Roof types separately in The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022 for the first time. They both came in towards the top end of the Middle Polling segment with only one vote between them. Those votes placed them in the top half of The Poll overall.

 

We wish Graham every success with the project and look forward to seeing more vans from the tooling suite in the future.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

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montyburns56

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4 hours ago, bluedepot said:

great news on the j94!

 

I wonder if it has any designs bought from djm though??

 

 

Well it seems not, but interestingly there was supposedly going to be a DJM version in the exact same MSC livery as new EFE version...

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/306789/dj_models_ooj94_006_austerity_0_6_0st_85_in_manchester_ship_canal_msc_lined_grey_cancelled_from_pro/stockdetail

 

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adb968008

adb968008

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15 minutes ago, montyburns56 said:

 

Well it seems not, but interestingly there was supposedly going to be a DJM version in the exact same MSC livery as new EFE version...

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/306789/dj_models_ooj94_006_austerity_0_6_0st_85_in_manchester_ship_canal_msc_lined_grey_cancelled_from_pro/stockdetail

 

My guess is they got the livery design from photos of the real thing, not DJs mockups.

 

 

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montyburns56

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23 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

My guess is they got the livery design from photos of the real thing, not DJs mockups.

 

 

 

Now that you mention that, does anyone have a picture of the real thing as I can't find any on the net? Also did they run in the Manchester part of the MSC network?

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Dungrange

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Given that the S&DJR revenue goods wagons were divided between the two owning companies in 1914, as @Graham_Muz has noted, it's quite possible that some or all of these vans never got a full repaint in S&DJR livery. How long after 1914 it was before anyone got round to painting them brown is another question!

 

Thanks, that is indeed another question.  I'm assuming that repainting into LSWR livery probably wasn't a priority during World War 1, but if any were still carrying the S&DJR livery post-war, they would have been repainted as the wagon works caught up with the maintenance schedules that were neglected during war (for obvious reasons).

 

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Two were converted to meat vans; it seems uncertain whether this was before 1914 or after being taken into L&SWR stock: No. 1212 and EFE's No. 1213, according to Garner.

 

Either way, I guess this makes this particular wagon a less appealing purchase for a post-war layout, so I might just go for the LSWR vent van instead - they'd both have been rare enough in East Anglia.

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St. Simon

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1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Critical words, those "in this condition" ............ who knows how adaptable the tooling might be to create a different condition ??!?


Hi,

 

Even if the tooling was adaptable, I would think it would be far easier to simply produce a new tool. 
 

The business case for doing such a thing on the other hand would have to right and I don’t think any of us have the expertise on that!

 

Simon

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Garethp8873

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11 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

As discussed in the announcement The tooling suite covers a wide range of variations including the end plank widths for potential future releases. 

 

So we may potentially see Meat, Fruit and Butter examples? 🙏

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Compound2632

Compound2632

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I hope you will bear with me if I go back to the S&DJR version of the LSWR van. From time to time the S&D Joint Committee authorised the purchase of new wagons by tender; the responsibility for the preparation of the tender documents fell on the Midland's Locomotive Department (not the Carriage & Wagon Department), the Midland's Locomotive Superintendent being the Joint's titular Locomotive Carriage & Wagon Superintendent. The Midland Railway Study Centre has copies of a number of these; those for wagons that it had been agreed would be built at Derby or at Eastleigh feature only "Abridged Specifications" though the one I have inspected, for the Derby-built Road Vans, gives plenty of detail. I'm afraid I've not yet looked in detail at MRSC 88-1974-58/4 :

 

Abridged Specification for 20 8-Tons Covered Goods Wagons

To be made by the London and South-Western Railway Company at Eastleigh

November 15th, 1901

Printed soft covered booklet entitled 'Abridged Specification for 20 8-Tons Covered Goods Wagons to be made by the London and South Western Railway Company at Eastleigh'. Issued by Mr. S. W. Johnson, Locomotive Superintendent for the Joint Committee. Consists of 7 pages.

 

I suppose this covers both the ten Road Vans and the ten Meat Vans. It may include a painting specification, which might cast light on the solebar colour. One for my next visit.

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adb968008

adb968008

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5 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

 

Now that you mention that, does anyone have a picture of the real thing as I can't find any on the net? Also did they run in the Manchester part of the MSC network?

A few austerities ran on the MSC post war.

This grey was applied to several MSC locos post war.

 

Back to Back!

flickr url not mine

Anecdotally Ive heard it suggested the livery was derived from USATC s100 tanks used during the war.

 

The image below is fiction, but may not be entirely that far from the truth

Manchester Ship Canal Railway, Cheshire: S100 'USA' Tank Locomotive (fiction)

flickr url/ not mine

 

The Austerity picture ive seen iirc was in the MSC book by Don Thorpe.


MSC Hudswell Clarke canal tanks i think would make for a very interesting model.

 

you can waste some quality time in worse places than this facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1886673298321181/

 

Edited by adb968008
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Wickham Green too

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1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Even if the tooling was adaptable, I would think it would be far easier to simply produce a new tool. ... The business case for doing such a thing on the other hand would have to be right ...

Someone thought the business case to be strong enough for a Gate-Stock Set that could operate with M7s and O2s ........ revising the tooling ( it might have been designed-in from day one so far as we know ) would open up the field for 0415s and even Terriers ............................ though whether anyone would want to play with the cable-operated control gear is a different question entirely !!!!

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Ribird

Ribird

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Would some malachite single coaches be in order?

Like to complete the pair with R4793, which should have a 56’ brake 3rd 6 comp lav paired with it, which is apart of these 3 and 4 coach sets. (I could be of course wrong in my findings, I’m no expert)

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Graham_Muz

Graham_Muz

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9 hours ago, Garethp8873 said:

 

So we may potentially see Meat, Fruit and Butter examples? 🙏

 

The tooling suite covers the variations for the variations within the diagrams announced not other diagrams.

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Graham_Muz

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9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Someone thought the business case to be strong enough for a Gate-Stock Set that could operate with M7s and O2s ........ revising the tooling ( it might have been designed-in from day one so far as we know ) would open up the field for 0415s and even Terriers ............................ though whether anyone would want to play with the cable-operated control gear is a different question entirely !!!!

 

The Gate stock tooling does not include for the back dated LSWR cable control / LSWR three window front. 

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