Black colliery wagons with a large white cross.

[doilum]

A familiar sight in many coalfields and now made famous by Rapido, I assumed that the livery was decided by the newly formed NCB in 1947. Yesterday the YouTube algorithm sent me a two minute clip of a wartime government information film extolling the importance of coal and the need to be economical ( miners toiling with pick and shovel, housewife recycling last night's cinders).

There were lots of railway images and amongst the grubby PO wagons of Cory and Ackton Hall was a newly repainted wagon in black with the large white cross. Was this an individual colliery that needed to clearly identify it's internal use non pool wagons or was it part of the government planning that pooled wagons on the outbreak of war?

[AY Mod]

31 minutes ago, doilum said:

the YouTube algorithm sent me a two minute clip

 

Do you have a link for that film?

[Steamport Southport]

34 minutes ago, doilum said:

A familiar sight in many coalfields and now made famous by Rapido, I assumed that the livery was decided by the newly formed NCB in 1947. Yesterday the YouTube algorithm sent me a two minute clip of a wartime government information film extolling the importance of coal and the need to be economical ( miners toiling with pick and shovel, housewife recycling last night's cinders).

There were lots of railway images and amongst the grubby PO wagons of Cory and Ackton Hall was a newly repainted wagon in black with the large white cross. Was this an individual colliery that needed to clearly identify it's internal use non pool wagons or was it part of the government planning that pooled wagons on the outbreak of war?

 

Don't quote me on it being fact. But I have seen it suggested previously that the white was also used so that the miners didn't walk into them in the dark and/or dim light. A big black wagon would be a hazard even if it wasn't moving.

 

Probably makes some sense I suppose with the air raid precautions as they wouldn't have been able to have lamps lit. A bit like the white platform edging being introduced during wartime and then kept.

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

... A big black wagon would be a hazard even if it wasn't moving. ...

Indeed ............. though the end of a big black wagon - whether moving or not - has extra hazardous sticky-out bits and the ends didn't get white crosses !

 

In fact, if it was a wartime thing, why bother with expensive black paint at all - just a dirty great white cross on whatever livery remained would have been as effective, quicker and cheaper. ( White corner plates - as featured on one or two Owners liveries - would have been simpler to apply quickly ! )

[doilum]

Clever daughter has managed to locate it in yesterday's viewing history.

British Pathe " coal and the war (1941)".

[br2975]

The large white cross indicates a wagon for 'Internal Use Only' - within the confines of that particular industry (it didn't just apply to pits) ; and not (normally) allowed on the national network.

[Cwmtwrch]

Booklet BR87209 of 12/1958 shows in the list of wagon markings that "White St Andrew's cross on black background on wagon sides" signifies "Vehicle allocated for internal use only", so it appears to be a means for railway staff to quickly identify wagons which should not be allowed on the main line [and hence those that are]. As such it probably originated with the RCH, I would think, as it appears to be standard throughout Britain. The use of overall black was possibly because it was cheap and always available, even in wartime?

[AY Mod]

11 minutes ago, doilum said:

British Pathe " coal and the war (1941)".

 

 

That's an interesting find with the date of the film being 1941 in that the use of the markings predates NCB as there was an assumption it was colliery's own wagons in tatty PO livery. It's impossible to see if the colliery is named on the wagon and what form of 'internal user' wording may or may not be used.

 

 

[doilum]

Thanks for the image. Interestingly, it has a five digit "pool" type ID number. It is a little blurred but does it say "non pool" under the number?

For those of tender years new to the coal trade, note the difference in size of the coal loads.

Edited August 2, 2023 by doilum

[Steamport Southport]

27 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Indeed ............. though the end of a big black wagon - whether moving or not - has extra hazardous sticky-out bits and the ends didn't get white crosses !

 

In fact, if it was a wartime thing, why bother with expensive black paint at all - just a dirty great white cross on whatever livery remained would have been as effective, quicker and cheaper. ( White corner plates - as featured on one or two Owners liveries - would have been simpler to apply quickly ! )

 

I didn't say it was a wartime thing to paint them black.

 

I suggested I had read that the white was also used as a "safety" thing just like painting stripes on platform edges, stripes on pavements and stripes on lampposts. 

 

And what about those that had the horizontal stripes? They didn't have Xs. 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

The implication that white crosses on black might have been a wartime introduction came from the original post .......... we now know that was not the case.

[doilum]

Most of the NCB internal users in Area 8 had the short white dash on the top plank in each corner. Occasionally the full cross was to be seen and others had a corner to corner diagonal to indicate end door wagons for the run down to the basin.

I have a particular interst in the preparations made before the outbreak of the war which seem to be mostly ignored or under estimated by the history books. We have made heroes, quite rightly, of RJ Mitchell and Barnes Wallis but ignored the civil servants who had a plan ready to go on day one of hostilities.

Edited August 2, 2023 by doilum

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, doilum said:

We have made heroes, quite rightly, of RJ Mitchell and Barnes Wallis but ignored the civil servants who had a plan ready to go on fay one of hostilities.

 

I did quite a bit of research on the plans for creating training camps for WW1 and was amazed how much preparatory work had already been carried out by the Ministry both in terms of acquiring land and standardising designs of buildings and the facilities required - way before war came.

[roythebus1]

There was also a lot of preparation by the railways pre WW2. Duplicating the telephone network, control rooms, storing bridge-sized girders around the place, bridge timbers, rails, the lot. I recently read a book about London's main line railways during WW2 which mentions the preparations in the opening chapters.

 

It was interesting t read that Britain nearly ran out of wagons at one stage, not because of war damaging them, but because of the difficulty of getting empty coal wagons out of places like London and the docks and getting fresh supplies in. London was down to 2 days food and fuel reserve at one point.

[doilum]

My late father told of how the little used Snydale branch held over half a mile of wagons full of pit props stock piled in 1938-9. I cannot remember the huge sum involved but as early as 1935 the government funded a programme that more than doubled the number of heavy brake down cranes. Anyone who has organised a school trip must be in awe of the plans made for evacuation of children from the large cities.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

That's an interesting find with the date of the film being 1941 in that the use of the markings predates NCB as there was an assumption it was colliery's own wagons in tatty PO livery. It's impossible to see if the colliery is named on the wagon and what form of 'internal user' wording may or may not be used.

 

 

A nice, abeit brief, view of Acton Yard at 1.03 for those wh are interested.

 

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I did quite a bit of research on the plans for creating training camps for WW1 and was amazed how much preparatory work had already been carried out by the Ministry both in terms of acquiring land and standardising designs of buildings and the facilities required - way before war came.

 

A lot of preparations for a possible coming European war began c.1910/11.  There is at Kew a 1911 GWR Special traffic notice detailing the GWR's train arrangements intended to supply the Grand Fleet at its northern anchorages with coal from the. South Wales coalfield.  Including GWR 28XX working through to Warrington.

 

The national army  mobilisation trainservice plan and the complementary plan to move a British Expeditionary Force to Southampton for shipping to Francee was drawn up c.1912/13.   And, unlike the railway part of the Sclieffen Plan (which very quickly fell apart), it actually not only worked but worked perfectly with all trains arriving at Southampton as near to right time as made no difference.

 

[bécasse]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

A bit like the white platform edging being introduced during wartime and then kept.

 

Except that it wasn't introduced during wartime. Examples of white platform edging can be observed in photos dating back to the Edwardian era, prior even to the Great War, many of the then newly-opened GWR rail motor halts being an obvious (and well photographed example). Some significant stations on, among others, the LNWR and the GER also had white platform edging at that era. It became far more widespread during (and probably just prior to) World War II but even then (and during the BR steam era) it was far from universal.

[Richard E]

To add to what has been said above this was debated on here some years ago and the conclusion was that white platform edges were not introduced in WW2 but may have been around from the late 1890's becoming more common during WW1.

 

 

 

[doilum]

A related question. When wagon pooling was introduced, were the owners immediately compensated? A labour government and nationalisation of the coal industry was but a socialist pipe dream in 1941. When it finally happened in 1947, the internal wagons would be included as assets for which the mine owners were well compensated. Identifying who owned what might have been just as important as ensuring a colliery always had sufficient wagons for it's internal operations.

[Wickham Green too]

When pooling was introduced it was perceived that the wagons would return whence they belonged after the conflict - whenever that was going to be. 

[Sitham Yard]

2 hours ago, doilum said:

A related question. When wagon pooling was introduced, were the owners immediately compensated? 

According to David Larkin The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 2 page 25 "Compensation was being paid on a weekly basis to the owners for the use of their wagons... This caused much debate in Parliament and there were calls for the nationalisation of the railway system after the end of hostilities"

Andrew

[Tom Burnham]

23 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

 

It was interesting t read that Britain nearly ran out of wagons at one stage, not because of war damaging them, but because of the difficulty of getting empty coal wagons out of places like London and the docks and getting fresh supplies in. London was down to 2 days food and fuel reserve at one point.

I recall reading in the official history of inland transport that other factors in the wagon shortage were that coal traffic from the North East to London and SE England had to be switched from coastal shipping to rail, and merchant ships were directed from East Coast to West Coast ports, increasing the average length of rail haulage.

The official history is actually rather critical of the railway companies as (apart from carrying out air raid precautions) they expected that they would be able to use their pre-War surplus capacity to handle increased wartime traffic so wouldn't need additional facilities.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

The official history is actually rather critical of the railway companies as (apart from carrying out air raid precautions) they expected that they would be able to use their pre-War surplus capacity to handle increased wartime traffic so wouldn't need additional facilities.

Despite the criticism in the official history, the railways' view may not have actually been too unreasonable on the information available to them in the late 1930s. Virtually no-one in Britain, from the Government down, was expecting the sudden and complete collapse of France in May 1940. This resulted in the Luftwaffe being based on the French coast within weeks, which was the major reason for the changes in seaborne traffic identified by the official history. Later, of course, the build-up of Bomber Command in eastern England led to the need to deliver millions of gallons of petrol to their airfields, which again would have been very difficult (impossible?) to predict before the war.

[Tom Burnham]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Despite the criticism in the official history, the railways' view may not have actually been too unreasonable on the information available to them in the late 1930s. Virtually no-one in Britain, from the Government down, was expecting the sudden and complete collapse of France in May 1940. This resulted in the Luftwaffe being based on the French coast within weeks, which was the major reason for the changes in seaborne traffic identified by the official history. Later, of course, the build-up of Bomber Command in eastern England led to the need to deliver millions of gallons of petrol to their airfields, which again would have been very difficult (impossible?) to predict before the war.

All good points. And I think a long drawn out war of attrition wasn't expected by anyone, including Germany.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 02/08/2023 at 15:12, roythebus1 said:

There was also a lot of preparation by the railways pre WW2. Duplicating the telephone network, control rooms, storing bridge-sized girders around the place, bridge timbers, rails, the lot. I recently read a book about London's main line railways during WW2 which mentions the preparations in the opening chapters.

 

It wasn't just the railways - the GPO had set up all sorts of alternative re-routing options for trunk lines.  My father worked for GPO telegrams in the early part of the war when he was too young for military serice (it was a reserved occupation so he had to volunteer for the RAF as aircrew in order to "do his bit").  They had removed all the labels from the patch panels to hamper potential nazi parachutists who might take over the exchange.  So when one of his collagaues drunkenly stumbled back in late one evening and pulled out all of the plugs, Newcastle was cut off from the rest of the country.  They had to spend the rest of the shift sending WRU (Who are you) requests down every line and then having to authenticate their bona fides!