What were the Big 4 and subsequently BR's policy on employees taking photographs of their trains?

[OnTheBranchline]

In reading "The Great Western Railway in the 1930s: Volume Two" by David Geen/Barry Scott with pictures from the G.H.Soole Collection, there is a biography of G.H.Soole where it says "In 1938, he joined the GWR as a traffic apprentice. Apparently, this involved him traveling to other stations to 'learn his trade', so giving him ample opportunity to pursue his hobby. It is said that the GWR frowned upon its employee taking photographs and that he was discouraged, so during 1938, his hobby gradually ceased".

 

To me, it's unclear why the GWR would have been against employees taking pictures unless it was on 'work time' of course but from the above paragraph, it's not exactly clear that he was. Were the other railways (including BR) like that?

[Hibelroad]

Quote

 

I worked for a while on the construction of Dinorwig power station, we were told not to take photographs as they might reveal commercially sensitive information. Possibly the same sort of thinking was applied to the railways, particularly when they were competing companies. 

[Wickham Green too]

In 1938 he might well have been lugging round a big camera and tripod in order to get decent images - which WOULD have interfered with his duties !

[Artless Bodger]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

In 1938 he might well have been lugging round a big camera and tripod in order to get decent images - which WOULD have interfered with his duties !

Maybe, my mother in law had a very nice prewar Leica 35mm camera which I was allowed to use - once! Perhaps another consideration by 1938 was of the impending war and espionage?

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, Artless Bodger said:

Maybe, my mother in law had a very nice prewar Leica 35mm camera which I was allowed to use - once! Perhaps another consideration by 1938 was of the impending war and espionage?

 

Definitely the latter part. Dates here are significant.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-britain-prepared-for-air-raids-in-the-second-world-war

 

 

Jason

[Matt37268]

10 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

I worked for a while on the construction of Dinorwig power station, we were told not to take photographs as they might reveal commercially sensitive information. Possibly the same sort of thinking was applied to the railways, particularly when they were competing companies. 

Mate of mine who worked at Litchurch Lane was told the same thing, in about 1998 a pair of ED’s made their way up for some reason, obviously a pair of 73’s that far north was going to attract attention, so he got the photo but he had 2 mates keeping a lookout for him whilst he got his photo of them at said location. 
I also know of other places where photos were not permitted back in the day.

I wonder what the situation is these days with camera phones? 

[Rivercider]

I started on BR in 1977. From then until 1986 I took several thousand photos. Several hundred were taken inside the railway fence, but most of them were in the Bristol area, where I knew the staff anyway. There may have been some conditions to my railway employment about photography, but if there were I did not know of them. I would not have taken or published any that would have looked bad for BR - I was a company man.

 At the time I never expected any to get into print. Apart from just one or two occasions when I was refused entry into a railway depot when off duty I never had any problems or restrictions. Back then I never forwarded any prints for publication anywhere.

 

cheers

Edited September 7, 2023 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[Mark Saunders]

We were too busy working to take photos!

[roythebus1]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

We were too busy working to take photos!

Really?? :)

[roythebus1]

The last Alec Swain was a prolific railway photographer and was also shedmaster at Willesden in the 1960s. He managed to "arrange" certain rare locos to be red carded to delay their departure so he could get decent photos of them.

[Matt37268]

I think it can depend on who’s in charge. We can see that on here with @big jims thread, I get the feeling that someone like John Smith at GBRf’s quite happy to encourage photography and enthusiasm at work just as long as it doesn’t interfere with getting the job done. 
I’m well aware of the story of Pat Whitehouse and John Adams asking to film a feature on one region and being declined and miraculously having that decision rescinded when somewhere else happened to be a little more accommodating.

 

[big jim]

 

22 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

I think it can depend on who’s in charge. We can see that on here with @big jims thread, I get the feeling that someone like John Smith at GBRf’s quite happy to encourage photography and enthusiasm at work just as long as it doesn’t interfere with getting the job done. 
 

You just have to be sensible, nothing dangerous, nothing sensitive to the business, just take pics of pretty coloured or interesting trains really! 

 

The only time I’ve had any issues was when a spotter argued with me that such and such didn’t happen and as he got the hump he contacted my (previous) employer to tell them I’d been posting pics, which they knew anyway so basically told him where to get off! 

[The Johnster]

The GW, like all of the big four, was publicity-concious and I suspect preferred to be in full control of any images that might find their way into the public domain, but I doubt there was much more to it than that.  One gets the sense that in pre-grouping days some companies were not overkeen on releasing details of classes, numbers, and so on, as the contemporary enthusiast press seems full of correspondent 'observations' that fill that role, but this may simply have been because they were unaware that anyone wanted that sort of information or that any gain was to be had from providing it, rather than a culture of secrecy.  After all, the competition only had to buy a ticket to see what you were up to!

[Wheatley]

The only condition I can remember (1987 on) is that BR owned the rights to anything I invented or created using the facilities available to me at work. As an Ops Supervisor I was issued with a camera (horrid cheap thing) for accident investigation and level crossing inspection work, and I suppose in theory BR owned the rights to anything I took with that during working hours. But I don't recall that ever being enforced even when people got photos published in Rail and Steam Railway that can only have been taken at work. 

 

My one regret over my career is that I should have taken more photos, especially of people, but I had little interest in recording the contemporary scene. Of course what was contemporary in 1987 now fills me with teary nostalgia. This is a bit later but it happens to be on my phone ...

 

[Nearholmer]

Some people very definitely did take a lot of photos at work ‘back in the day’, as evidenced by the excellent books of shots of southern railway signalling and infrastructure taken by …… I can’t remember!

 

But, I think that even in BR times, it would have been wise/required/polite to ask permission before publishing anything taken from s place with no public access. We had a ‘team photographer’ in our engineering department, a senior clerk who was a very proficient amateur photographer, who took any photos we needed for record purposes or for publication, so was by default semi-professional, and one of the DO staff was a much published amateur (Eddie Wilmshurst) whose record shots of branchlines turn up in many books even today.

 

Some railways loved photographers, notably LBSCR, who were very helpful to amateurs, professionals, and interested staff, and allowed/encouraged publication; there was a big ‘fan base’ for The Brighton, which I guess they saw as positive in PR terms, a community that would speak favourably of them.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Nearholmer

[LMS2968]

I was privileged to know Jim Carter, who not only took thousands of railway photos from about 1954 to the end of his railway career on the footplate, but also published them in magazines, ABCs and even several books of his own. He never mentioned any managerial disapproval.

[RichardT]

On 07/09/2023 at 03:57, OnTheBranchline said:

It is said that the GWR frowned upon its employee taking photographs and that he was discouraged,

Pace @The Johnster’s comments above, in the absence of anything specific in the rule book or contracts of employment, the phraseology “frowned upon” and “discouraged” suggests that this is more a matter of the informal control over employees’ lives which paternalistic companies simply assumed that they had.  Very much along the lines of preferring married men with “socially-acceptable” wives for advancement in certain white collar environments.  Nothing legally enforceable, but you could find your promotion prospects affected if you continued to ignore hints and “advice” from your superiors…

(EDIT Of course, with stronger equalities legislation this no longer happens. <cough>)

 

RichardT

Edited September 8, 2023 by RichardT

[Matt37268]

11 hours ago, big jim said:

 

You just have to be sensible, nothing dangerous, nothing sensitive to the business, just take pics of pretty coloured or interesting trains really! 

 

 

I think that’s a sensible way of summing it up, 😀

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Some people very definitely did take a lot of photos at work ‘back in the day’, as evidenced by the excellent books of shots of southern railway signalling and infrastructure taken by …… I can’t remember!

 

But, I think that even in BR times, it would have been wise/required/polite to ask permission before publishing anything taken from s place with no public access. We had a ‘team photographer’ in our engineering department, a senior clerk who was a very proficient amateur photographer, who took any photos we needed for record purposes or for publication, so was by default semi-professional, and one of the DO staff was a much published amateur (Eddie Wilmshurst) whose record shots of branchlines turn up in many books even today.

 

Some railways loved photographers, notably LBSCR, who were very helpful to amateurs, professionals, and interested staff, and allowed/encouraged publication; there was a big ‘fan base’ for The Brighton, which I guess they saw as positive in PR terms, a community that would speak favourably of them.

 

 

 

Even in BR days people like Eric Treacy had access to virtually everywhere within reason. Not many enthusiasts would have been allowed to take photos in the Edge Hill tunnels!

 

I still think it's more of a "pending wartime" issue, ISTR the subject was mentioned in the kids drama Gods Wonderful Railway where the young lad was no longer allowed to go to the engine sheds or get footplate rides.

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Some railways loved photographers, notably LBSCR, who were very helpful to amateurs, professionals, and interested staff, and allowed/encouraged publication; there was a big ‘fan base’ for The Brighton, which I guess they saw as positive in PR terms, a community that would speak favourably of them.

 

Offsetting the opprobrium from their passengers!

[Nearholmer]

….. who were forever moaning about slow services and the famed absence of toilets, when we all know that what’s important about any railway is how beautifully engineered and painted the locomotives are.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

….. who were forever moaning about slow services and the famed absence of toilets, when 

 

Plus ca change.

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

….. who were forever moaning about slow services and the famed absence of toilets, when we all know that what’s important about any railway is how beautifully engineered and painted the locomotives are.

 

That's why Victorian ladies always carried a hat box and it wasn't a hat in there!

 

 

[kevinlms]

One regret I have for not being allowed to take photos.

 

My late Grandmother had a family friend in Crewe, who worked at the railway workshops and I was offered a personal tour in 1980. It was absolutely a condition, that I was not allowed to take photos. Sadly, I left the camera at my grandmothers place to comply, as I had no wish to be denied.

[Mark Saunders]

The biggest regret I have is not dealing you could have a really good second hand camera for just over the price of a reasonable new one and taking Black & White when I should have used colour.

 

Coupled to take photos today as it may be gone tomorrow!