Things that you've never seen on an exhibition layout but would love to see happen?

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

Yes, there are two on Ipswich. Ok they are done with a biased switch that operates the servo controlling the point but like the real thing you do have to keep holding the switch while the loco crosses the point or you will end up with an “earth fault” 

 

I hated pulling the lever on the real points when I was a secondman at Ipswich in the 80s, knowing that if you let go then the loco would be off the rails. It’s purely because of that memory that I have incorporated it into the layout. 
 

Andi

Do they have real ones there now? The examples I was thinking of are mostly on either narrow gauge or miniature lines, or on remote standard gauge lines with radio signalling (in both cases to simplify things and remove the need for motorised or locally controlled points).

[Dagworth]

13 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Do they have real ones there now? The examples I was thinking of are mostly on either narrow gauge or miniature lines, or on remote standard gauge lines with radio signalling (in both cases to simplify things and remove the need for motorised or locally controlled points).

Yes, there are (or were) two points in the loco yard that had sprung levers. In order to put a loco “round the corner”* you had to pull and hold the lever while the loco crossed the points. If you let go then the point would return to its straight position and the loco would end up going two different ways….. I don’t know if they are still there now. So rather different to the spring points of radio signalled lines I guess. The biggest difference in behaviour of the model to the real Ipswich and my model is that on the real thing there was no need to pull the lever to let a loco out of the siding whereas on the model that would cause a short circuit on the frog. 
 

*”Round the corner” is the name of the siding at Ipswich where the fuel tanks stand. 
 

Andi

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dagworth

[6990WitherslackHall]

Daleks!

 

 

 

 

Oh wait. I'm already doing it.

[wagonbasher]

On 06/10/2023 at 13:04, Clive Mortimore said:

If a manufacturer was to make one I bet it will have (insert your least favorite railway here) style of harness so not suitable for my train set.

And a vast array of liveries, network and private owner.

 

Andy

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Yes, there are (or were) two points in the loco yard that had sprung levers. In order to put a loco “round the corner”* you had to pull and hold the lever while the loco crossed the points. If you let go then the point would return to its straight position and the loco would end up going two different ways….. I don’t know if they are still there now. So rather different to the spring points of radio signalled lines I guess.

I’m not sure that’s quite the same thing. The ones I’ve seen (on narrow gauge and miniature lines) have the spring set so that the train pushes the point open going one way and it then snaps back to the other position using the spring. The example I’m very familiar with that I’m thinking of (on a 2ft gauge line) has two points, forming a crossover on a double track section of line, but the first of them is also the start of a balloon loop. The first point is entered from a straight track and by default is set for the diverging line (i.e. the crossover itself), then the trailing connection on the other side by default is set for the straight ahead route. After the train has pushed through this second point it will spring back to this straight track, which in this case allows empty trains to set back into an adjacent siding when they’re being taken out of service. The train then continues round the loop and eventually returns to the  start, where it now approaches the first point from the other way (on the straight main line) and pushes the points open. They don’t have levers but can be clipped in the opposite position from normal on the rare occasions when this is needed.

 

In the above example, the second point as part of the crossover purely to access a siding is probably a bit more unusual but sprung points at the entrance to balloon loops seem to also be quite common on miniature railways (where balloon loops themselves are more common when compared to railways generally). It makes sense as the balloon loop usually needs to be used the same way round each time and the point might be remote from any stations or signalling/control locations, so it avoids lots of point rodding, motorised points or trains stopping while crew operate the points.

 

In 009, my main modelling scale, I’d probably be reluctant to use an actual spring to replicate such a feature because the I’m not convinced that in model form the train would necessarily exert enough force to push the sprung points open. I might be tempted to use something like a few reed switches at the entrances and exits to the point, which would be motorised with the switches being triggered by approaching trains to set the point correctly.

Edited October 12, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Pete Haitch]

A sound fitted DCC equipped tree. to play woodpecker knocking. squirrel hissing, leaf rustling and other sounds! A couple of the spare functions used to trigger a mini strobe and small smoke generator in the trunk, to simulate a lightening strike; whilst four or five sub-baseboard relays operate control lines/rods to shake the tree and some branches. I'm imagining the equivalent of the @Andy Keane ground signals and point indicators merged and put on steroids.

[Barry O]

16 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Apparently it’s been done here, but has anyone else done a sprung point? And anyway, on Roundtree (as linked above) I think it’s for operational reasons rather than replicating a prototype location that had one.

yep.. sprung points into the Liverpool Overhead Railway sheds on Mike Edges Herculaneum Dock. Driving an overhead train into the shed (ex Herculaneum Terminus)  is interesting.

 

Baz

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

yep.. sprung points into the Liverpool Overhead Railway sheds on Mike Edges Herculaneum Dock. Driving an overhead train into the shed (ex Herculaneum Terminus)  is interesting.

 

Baz

Replicating a prototype feature or for model operational reasons?

[PaulRhB]

22 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Do they have real ones there now? The examples I was thinking of are mostly on either narrow gauge or miniature lines, or on remote standard gauge lines with radio signalling (in both cases to simplify things and remove the need for motorised or locally controlled points).

Westoe Colliery see 4:29 here, the main issue is wear from pushing through and also making sure they remain free of obstructions leaving the blades slightly open so the facing moves don’t derail. 

 

 

There are also hydro pneumatic ‘self restoring points’ still in use in various locations around the country, example in this RAIB report

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8ff3ed915d4c0d00017b/100930_B112010_Dingwall.pdf

 

 

[Barry O]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Replicating a prototype feature or for model operational reasons?

Not sure but it made building the overhead and track easier

Bas

[john new]

On 12/10/2023 at 22:08, 009 micro modeller said:

I’m not sure that’s quite the same thing. The ones I’ve seen (on narrow gauge and miniature lines) have the spring set so that the train pushes the point open going one way and it then snaps back to the other position using the spring. The example I’m very familiar with that I’m thinking of (on a 2ft gauge line) has two points, forming a crossover on a double track section of line, but the first of them is also the start of a balloon loop. The first point is entered from a straight track and by default is set for the diverging line (i.e. the crossover itself), then the trailing connection on the other side by default is set for the straight ahead route. After the train has pushed through this second point it will spring back to this straight track, which in this case allows empty trains to set back into an adjacent siding when they’re being taken out of service. The train then continues round the loop and eventually returns to the  start, where it now approaches the first point from the other way (on the straight main line) and pushes the points open. They don’t have levers but can be clipped in the opposite position from normal on the rare occasions when this is needed.

 

In the above example, the second point as part of the crossover purely to access a siding is probably a bit more unusual but sprung points at the entrance to balloon loops seem to also be quite common on miniature railways (where balloon loops themselves are more common when compared to railways generally). It makes sense as the balloon loop usually needs to be used the same way round each time and the point might be remote from any stations or signalling/control locations, so it avoids lots of point rodding, motorised points or trains stopping while crew operate the points.

 

In 009, my main modelling scale, I’d probably be reluctant to use an actual spring to replicate such a feature because the I’m not convinced that in model form the train would necessarily exert enough force to push the sprung points open. I might be tempted to use something like a few reed switches at the entrances and exits to the point, which would be motorised with the switches being triggered by approaching trains to set the point correctly.

Plenty of sprung points in regular daily use on the Seaton Tramway including a single slip. See the Railcam Depot based cam images to watch it being used.

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, john new said:

Plenty of sprung points in regular daily use on the Seaton Tramway including a single slip. See the Railcam Depot based cam images to watch it being used.

Actually are they relatively common on tramways as well? The example I’m most familiar with is on Mail Rail (the museum line though, the original points weren’t sprung) and Ruislip Lido has them for its balloon loop and I think some passing loops as well.

[4069]

I think the points on the Ruislip Lido Railway are weighted rather than sprung, but the effect is much the same.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, 4069 said:

I think the points on the Ruislip Lido Railway are weighted rather than sprung, but the effect is much the same.

I’m not sure what the practical difference is in the case of Ruislip Lido. Mail Rail is definitely sprung (I work there, but you can tell anyway by observing them that there is a spring, and that the points ‘snap’ back after each bogie passes due to the force of the spring).

 

The Great Orme Tramway I think also has some form of self-setting points for the passing loop on the upper section. As a cable-hauled line it can’t have the trams always keeping either to the left or right, as on a system with powered vehicles, instead each of the two cars has its own side of the loop on which it always runs. On more typical funiculars with passing loops this is often done by having points with no moving parts; the carriages then have double flanged wheels on one side and unflanged on the other to guide them correctly. But on the Great Orme with conventional wheels, as I understand it the car arrives at the passing loop to find the facing point entering the loop set correctly for it, then pushes open the trailing point at the exit from the loop, which leaves it in the correct position for when it goes back the other way. The other car simultaneously does the same for its side of the loop, and obviously the cables are kept apart appropriately along the line. I’ll have to check my funicular book to remind myself what happens on the lower section of the Great Orme; as I recall from reading about it and from my own visit to it it has sections of 3-rail and gauntleted track but I’m not sure how the routing of the cars is actually done.

 

Again I’ll need to check the book for references, but I think Windsor Safari Park funicular as originally configured had a similar passing loop to that on the upper section of the Great Orme, but with a slightly over-engineered arrangement involving trip switches, motorised points and possibly even some kind of signals. When rebuilt for Legoland this was simplified though, and it now has interlaced track throughout, apart from the passing place (so effectively it is a double track funicular, but largely on a single track formation).

[KeithMacdonald]

23 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

The Great Orme Tramway

 

Thanks, just looked that up on YT and enjoyed it.

[NZRedBaron]

I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but what about for a Transition era layout, a steam engine piloting a failed diesel?

[johnofwessex]

3 hours ago, NZRedBaron said:

I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but what about for a Transition era layout, a steam engine piloting a failed diesel?

 

Winter on the Southern?  Crompton with a 24 behind to provide steam heat or an Electric/electro Diesel with a steam loco ditto

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

On more typical funiculars with passing loops this is often done by having points with no moving parts; the carriages then have double flanged wheels on one side and unflanged on the other to guide them correctly.

Just reading about this, and apparently the Ebbw Vale Garden Festival funicular used this kind of system for the passing loop (despite its resemblance in other respects to the Windsor system).

[298]

6 hours ago, NZRedBaron said:

I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but what about for a Transition era layout, a steam engine piloting a failed diesel?

 

Steam loco piloting Interurban cars on my Hershey layout- the same happened in Cuba quite a few times when a hurricane destroyed part of the overhead. 

I took that photo a few months ago but recently rebuilt that section of overhead and had to drag the Interurban cars then.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by 298

[The Black Hat]

On 06/10/2023 at 15:03, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

From personal experience, I think that there is a lot of truth in that attitude - not 100% true, of course, but even so it can be very true - to an extent it depends on what demographic you are trying to please.

 

If there is a large 'general public' audience at a show then constant movement is what they want, but if the audience is dominated by serious railway enthusiasts then serious operation is called for. But, I think, serious railway operation can reach out to the general audience if it is explained to them and whilst cards and posters can work, nothing beats a front-of-house man explaining why things are happening as they are. Human interaction with the audience is very important if you want them to understand anything more than roundy-roundy operation - most of the general audience know nothing of a lot of what has been discussed here (slip coaches etc) and therefore they can't engage with it like a serious enthusiast can.

 

The plan for my layout, Briganton (see the Layout Topics area) is for it to encompass a lot of the various parts here. There is a depot / stabling point that can have diesels parked up for charter work or the nearby Loading area. This Loading area is also there for prototypical operation such as the ones that Mick has done on his steel layout before Deadman's lane. The station itself has branch and mainline running through, but also has an operation built in for engine changes for charters and that's before things like test trains, saloons, engineering and freight all want to pass through. 

Hopefully it should have a nice mix between good operation with lots of interest, at least... that's the plan...  

[newbryford]

22 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

 

This Loading area is also there for prototypical operation such as the ones that Mick has done on his steel layout before Deadman's lane. 

 

 

Presumably you are referring to the Blackburn club's Blackmill?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by newbryford

[The Black Hat]

18 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

 

Presumably you are referring to the Blackburn club's Blackmill?

 

 

 

 

Think so. Me and you had a discussion on the shared appreciation of 66044... 

[newbryford]

Just now, The Black Hat said:

 

Think so. Me and you had a discussion on the shared appreciation of 66044... 

 

66044 was also a regular on the New Bryford steels (as well as Blackmill)

 

Immortalised in an AY/BRM pic.

 

[Phatbob]

On 15/10/2023 at 08:14, johnofwessex said:

 

  Crompton with a 24 behind to provide steam heat.

It's been done on Star Lane (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/67894-star-lane-hooley/#comment-938193).  Roundhouse of this parish has a "first batch" class 24 done up as running on the Souther Region in the late 50s and early 60s.  This loco now also gets used on his new layout, Shepherdswell (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175947-shepherdswell-ekr-1960’s-first-show-is-in-barrow-in-furness-this-weekend/#comment-5011599).

 

[OnTheBranchline]

Water troughs are something you don’t see every day - even just static ones.