Was it usual for sheds to think of other sheds as 'dense' and some routes were not a proper railway?

[OnTheBranchline]

In Great Western Railway Journal No. 45 Winter 2003, R.S. Potts writes about a working on the Snow Hill to Aberystwyth where the working pulled into Moat Lane and the stationmaster shouted to 'take the staff out of the magazine' and the Tyseley crew didn't know what he meant. The stationmaster then asked "haven't you done this before?" and from the silence knew what the answer was. R.S. Potts then wrote that the stationmaster was probably thinking (in Welsh, of course) how dense the Tyseley men were.

 

Then later in the article on the return working, the driver then remarks that they are back "now we're on a proper railway" joining the Hereford line at Sutton Bridge Junction.

 

I guess it would be no different than people at one company in a similar field thinking negatively of another company.

 

Were there any two sheds that were notable for their bad relations?

 

Edit: I've also read about sheds thinking of 'devious' ways to keep a "good 'un" on the shed and not returned to its actual shed.

Edited November 6, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[br2975]

During the late 60s - when BR (WR) were reorganising freight working in South Wales, according to those involved - Margam men and their representatives proved somewhat 'awkward' - even to the annoyance of colleagues representing other yards and depots.

[LBRJ]

I think it still applies now.

 

We were certainly of the opinion that our bit was a proper railway ;)

[pete_mcfarlane]

This applies in pretty much every organisation - the other team/site/business unit is always full of morons who don't know what they are doing. 

[Dagworth]

Yep, we at Ipswich were quite derogatory to the March drivers who we always reckoned were slow. The joke around our way being "what would a March driver do on cracking a detonator? Accelerate to 20MPH"

 

Andi

[The Johnster]

At Canton we used to accuse Radyr men of 'hanging the pot on'*, reasoning being that they were keen to make overtime and less keen on main line speeds.  Old Oak were reckoned to think of themselves as a cut above, but this may have been an expression of the usual disdain for those living in the Capital of a country by those who hail from beyond the M25...  Swindon men had a similar attitude.

 

Rivalry between Canton and Landore men had been apparent from very early days and was a sort of tradition, each depot resenting any work past it that the other depot was given, like Landore's STJs and Paddingtons and our Llanellis and Fishguards.  Jobs were understandably a contentious issue in those post-Beeching days.  Margam men were just plain awkward tw*ts and I had several run-ins with them, mostly about their understanding of what was involved in preparing trains and brake vans, which they only did properly for their own men (Johnny Chopsticks would have been horrified), but on one occasion working late on an xmas eve with a Margam driver had a great time afterwards with him in the British Steel staff club, taxi home about 2am and paid for by the railway which had stranded me down there... 

 

 

*'Hanging the pot on' referred to the practice of hanging a teacan on the signal arm of a loop you were probably going to be stuck inside of for some time, so that you could 'rest your eyes' and be alerted to the fact that you were expected to make a move when the signal was pulled off and the can slipped off it and crashed to the ground; buckets were used for this as well.   It became a catch-all phrase for hanging about, not getting a crack on, wasting time in the hope of making overtime, and such shennanigans.  Radyr men earned it partly from their reputation of working long double-home jobs with 72xx (Shrewsbury, Salisbury, Exeter, Banbury, Acton) which were never fast workings and spent most of their time in loops or refuge sidings, and partly from their technique of crawling up to stop signals with the train barely moving, snail-racing, in order to maintain motion and keep the couplings taut for when the signal cleared and you could pull away!  I've seen Radyr men taking up to 20 minutes over the last hundred yards approaching a signal in the (often justified) hope that it will clear before they reached it, which I thought was an admirable skill, demonstrating complete mastery of the occult art of driving loose-coupled trains!  If they could see the next signal against them, the plate tectonics pace would continue...

 

There were several ways of disposing of time in order to miss your back working or cushions home.  On one occasion I took a train up to Severn Tunnel from Cardiff Tidal and my driver contrived to have us arrive at the examination road at STJ where we were to be relieved so as to be able to officially miss a train off STJ we were booked to ride on, leaving at about 19.30.  Ten minutes walking time from exam recep to the office for orders, another ten minutes, no back working, Twenty minutes from the signing on point to the station by the official walking route over the road bridge, which is what it said on our 'tickets'.  In the real world, we were told there was no back working by our relief and snuck across the running lines to the down platform some 25 minutes before we should have been there and with 10 minutes to spare for the train. 

 

We'd 'legitimately' booked travelling home on the next service, off STJ at 23.30 and three hours of night rate overtime, gave our Journals to somebody booking off around that time to hand in for us, but were back in Cardiff, specifically the public bar of the Great Western Hotel, shortly after eight.  I tried to keep up with a driver who was a proper drinking man, and had to be sent home in a taxi... 

 

Now, that's how you hang the pot on!  The real experts were Llanwern Steelworks, though; come to a stand at the stop board in there and you were guaranteed several hours at least before your loco was cut off and you could make a break for the border.  I have never seen a place with such an entrenched and unshiftable culture of lack of urgency, no wonder it closed!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, br2975 said:

During the late 60s - when BR (WR) were reorganising freight working in South Wales, according to those involved - Margam men and their representatives proved somewhat 'awkward' - even to the annoyance of colleagues representing other yards and depots.

Margam was a fascinating train crew depot as it was not only an amlagam of various steam sheds but the links remained very much in the former steam shed groups although the work was changing.  So you would here one Margam man saying of another 'oh, he's Duffryn Yard' man'.    

 

At Radyr a similar there was what might be described as something of a bias against Aberdare men - one reason for it was competition for Mileage payments on ballast trains but it actually went much deeper and way further back than that.  Radyr was formed basically of men who had come from wehat was 50 years earlier TVR sheds while Aberdare was  long established as an important GWR shed going way back before the Grouping.  This sort of competition had apparently existed for years between Aberdare and the ex TVR depots despite the fact that we had no Drivers older than post-war GWR employees.

 

Another feature was some of the amusement had at the expense of other depots.   Old Oak Common men, notwithstanding that they had come from all over the place,  were always 'Cockneys' to men at the down country depots.  And being regarded also as 'townies' so unwise in the ways of the country they could also be ready targets for a bit of fun.  Hence one day a conversation developed in the cabin at Taunton where an Old Oak Driver started asking how good the soil was in the area for growing vegetables.  Taking this as an ideal opportunity a couple of Taunton men very seriously explained that the soil in the are was very rich and produced superb veg and would the London man like an example.  The Old Oak man jumped at the chance and was told that turnips were doing really well. and was asked if he would like one next time he was there - the offer was duly accepted.   Clearly the Old Oak Driver was not in the Gardening Club on Acton Estate because when he was next there a couple of days later he was presented with a massive turnip for which he offered profuse thanks and carried off in triumph.

 

A couple of weeks later the Old Oak man was back at Taunton on the same turn and expressed considerable disappointment about the turnip.  Apparently it had been very tough to try to cut and even worse it simply wouldn't soften in lots of boiling water so it had, unfortunately, had to go in the bin uneaten.  The Tanton men in the cabin managed to keep straight faces and not let out teh secret that the supposed 'turnip' was actually a mangel lifted from the field of a farm near the town - so it really was much bigger than even a field grown turnip.  Mangels were grown for winter cattle feed so thatt Driver had been well and truly caught out.  The story, along with others, was still being told at Taunton a couple of years later and knowing some Old Oak Drivers I can believe it absolutely - especially as it was also told at the London end about country bumpkin sheds..

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

. 

 

Now, that's how you hang the pot on!  The real experts were Llanwern Steelworks, though; come to a stand at the stop board in there and you were guaranteed several hours at least before your loco was cut off and you could make a break for the border.  I have never seen a place with such an entrenched and unshiftable culture of lack of urgency, no wonder it closed!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talking as  one of the past rail managers at Llanwern  - which is of course still open with regular rail traffic passing - I doth think you more than exaggerate your lack of understanding of how the place worked in your time as a Guard.

[OnTheBranchline]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Margam was a fascinating train crew depot as it was not only an amlagam of various steam sheds but the links remained very much in the former steam shed groups although the work was changing.  So you would here one Margam man saying of another 'oh, he's Duffryn Yard' man'.    

 

At Radyr a similar there was what might be described as something of a bias against Aberdare men - one reason for it was competition for Mileage payments on ballast trains but it actually went much deeper and way further back than that.  Radyr was formed basically of men who had come from wehat was 50 years earlier TVR sheds while Aberdare was  long established as an important GWR shed going way back before the Grouping.  This sort of competition had apparently existed for years between Aberdare and the ex TVR depots despite the fact that we had no Drivers older than post-war GWR employees.

 

Another feature was some of the amusement had at the expense of other depots.   Old Oak Common men, notwithstanding that they had come from all over the place,  were always 'Cockneys' to men at the down country depots.  And being regarded also as 'townies' so unwise in the ways of the country they could also be ready targets for a bit of fun.  Hence one day a conversation developed in the cabin at Taunton where an Old Oak Driver started asking how good the soil was in the area for growing vegetables.  Taking this as an ideal opportunity a couple of Taunton men very seriously explained that the soil in the are was very rich and produced superb veg and would the London man like an example.  The Old Oak man jumped at the chance and was told that turnips were doing really well. and was asked if he would like one next time he was there - the offer was duly accepted.   Clearly the Old Oak Driver was not in the Gardening Club on Acton Estate because when he was next there a couple of days later he was presented with a massive turnip for which he offered profuse thanks and carried off in triumph.

 

A couple of weeks later the Old Oak man was back at Taunton on the same turn and expressed considerable disappointment about the turnip.  Apparently it had been very tough to try to cut and even worse it simply wouldn't soften in lots of boiling water so it had, unfortunately, had to go in the bin uneaten.  The Tanton men in the cabin managed to keep straight faces and not let out teh secret that the supposed 'turnip' was actually a mangel lifted from the field of a farm near the town - so it really was much bigger than even a field grown turnip.  Mangels were grown for winter cattle feed so thatt Driver had been well and truly caught out.  The story, along with others, was still being told at Taunton a couple of years later and knowing some Old Oak Drivers I can believe it absolutely - especially as it was also told at the London end about country bumpkin sheds..

Not exactly a nice thing to do when someone shows genuine interest in something?

[Steamport Southport]

"Not a proper railway" and GWR in the same breath?

 

 

To easy. Must restrain myself!

 

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Gas-Works-Railway-(GWR).html

 

 

🤣

[Oldddudders]

20 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

This applies in pretty much every organisation - the other team/site/business unit is always full of morons who don't know what they are doing. 

Indeed so. And any error on their part will be mocked mercilessly. In 1975, after dark, an Ashford driver on a Crompton (Class 33 to younger readers) misread his location and thought he was on the Down Local line at Grove Park, when in fact he was in a parallel dead-end siding. He moved the stops quite a bit. Not many months later, experiments with avoiding under-track cables being cut by tamping machines meant a lot of little pegs appeared in the cess nearby, with the letter L on them - for lift. Obviously, as any railwayman will tell you, this idea would have been properly published in advance, in a weekly notice - but an Ashford driver had failed to read it, and asked a local driver what it was for. Deadpan "It's so Ashford drivers know it's the local line!"

 

In my Control days, 4-EPBs on the London Bridge - Holborn Viaduct service were then booked onto the South Eastern on a Catford Loop train, and incoming Loop trains became London Bridge departures from HV. It was truly amazing how often the unit that left Holborn for the Central Division was green-carded for depot. Obviously the staff there simply connived to send any duff units out to us. We then had to do some sort of exchange at West Croydon and send the duff unit to Selhurst depot. If extra crews weren't about, the train would terminate. Thanks SED!

 

Then there was the day that things were bad at Hither Green for some reason, and a freight for there was already by Factory Junction, and the SED had decided we could bury it at Norwood. This would have meant all sorts of efforts to get the traffic back to them. Tough - the 47 on the front was barred between Herne Hill and Tulse Hill - and I took great delight in telling the SED signalman at HH that! 

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Talking as  one of the past rail managers at Llanwern  - which is of course still open with regular rail traffic passing - I doth think you more than exaggerate your lack of understanding of how the place worked in your time as a Guard.

 

Llanwern had a deadly reputation during my time as a guard in the 70s, once you went in there it would inevitably be some time before you got out again.  I suspect the handling of the iron ore hoppers from Newport Docks and the later tipplers from Port Talbot was done quite smartly, but these trains turned right shortly after entering the reception roads from the east and dissappeared into the wilderness of the unloading plant to the east of the smelting area, where we never went. 

 

Going in there with coal or limestone, or strip mill empties, you were routed off the up relief into the reception roads, where you might well be in a queue behind other traffic; there was room for two or three full length trains (it was, and still is, a properly enormous site).  This would take an hour or two to clear before you'd even got to the STOP board, where of course you had to await a handsignal from the reception shunters before proceeding.  The cabin was a few hundred yards away, and occasionally somebody would come out and seem to look in your direction, so you'd blow your horn at him, and he'd go back in the cabin.  After the best part of another hour, you would be called forward and a shunter would climb aboard your loco to shepherd you to where the traffic was to be left in the recep yard.  The loco would be cut off, but would have to await it's turn in the queue to be released, either towards the down exit to the down relief, where you might well be held up by traffic heading for the tipplers, or at the Bishton end to head for STJ.  I never went in there from the Bishton end but came out light engine that way once.

 

But I did the approach from the up relief probably half a dozen times, and each time found without exception that the place's reputation was thoroughly deserved.  I admire your loyalty to the men who worked under you when you were a rail manager there, Mike, and this might have been at a different period when things had improved of course, but I can assure you that in the 70s mention of Llanwern would result in eyes being rolled and any hope of getting home by teatime abandoned.  I accept that there may well have been factors of which we were not aware that would have explained this, but, um, we weren't aware of them.  Three or four hours at least, day or night, and on one occasion I was stranded for 6 and a half hours, mostly waiting in the STOP board queue!

 

Not helped by being so far away from the cabin most of the time, no chance of boiling water for a cuppa.

 

I put it down to the general layout of the place, which looked very sensible on the surface of things, a simple pair of permissive block or yard control loops up and down for the four miles or so that the site extended with junctions off to various operations; it looked very efficient.  But at Cardiff East Moors, and Margam, and Trostre, you ran into a yard (Cardiff Marshalling, Margam Abbey, Llandeilo Jc) off the main running lines that was a little away from the steelworks, and your loco would be uncoupled, you'd hand your load to the yard foreman if it was pre-TOPS, back through and empty road and right away Canton light engine; your traffic would be tripped into the steelworks exchange sidings by a yard pilot and handed over to the steelworks engine and shunter, by which time you could be miles away and probably tucked up in bed...

[Rivercider]

As has been mentioned before it was commonplace for one depot (or department) to disparage another. It is a human trait, and also occurs within many organisations, where each department thinks itself better than others. My last place of work, the night shift and the day shift each thought they were better than the other.

For example the rivalry between the LSWR/SR depot at Exmouth Junction, and the GWR/WR depot at Exeter St Davids was legendary. In my time as a traincrew roster clerk I heard plenty of comments made about 'other' depots.

My dad as WR civil engineers wagon supervisor spent many years chasing lost and delayed wagons. He visited all the WR carriage and wagon depots, and in turn had Cathays point out to him poor repairs by Reading, Reading point out poor repairs by Exmouth Junction, Exmouth Junction point out poor repairs by Barton Hill, etc etc. 

When I worked in Bristol I several times heard mention that the Southern was just a tram system, whereas the Southern prided themselves that their timekeeping was better than the WR who could not possibly run such an intense service,

 

cheers

Edited November 7, 2023 by Rivercider
Additional info

[Dagworth]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

It was truly amazing how often the unit that left Holborn for the Central Division was green-carded for depot. Obviously the staff there simply connived to send any duff units out to us.

Exactly the same when we got the 86s at Ilford for the Anglia electrification. Willesden would send us their knackereds, Ilford would sort them out and Willesden would nick them back!

 

Much the same reason we didn't send our decent 47s up North on the Glasgow boat train, we wouldn't get 'em back, so whatever heap of junk brought it down one night took it back next morning.

 

Andi

[GMKAT7]

Good morning folks,

 

During my BR apprenticeship I had 3 months at Cardiff Canton for depot experience.

 

A consistent put-down was that any loco arriving on the main shed or servicing shed/fuel point from the LMR, typically Toton, would need 'blocking' i.e. new brake blocks. The LMR depots were always (apparently) short of stock and sent their locos to South Wales on the minimum thickness.

 

My first works training was in 1979 at Crewe, and they always had nothing good to say about Derby - after all those years! 

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[Oldddudders]

19 hours ago, Rivercider said:

 When I worked in Bristol I several times heard mention that the Southern was just a tram system, whereas the Southern prided themselves that their timekeeping was better than the WR who could not possibly run such an intense service,

Yes, the tram-track jibe was very common north of the river, too. Thus when a career move required a northern manager to take up a Southern role, the complexity of the network - on all three Districts/Divisions/Sections - and the frequency of services often meant they turned up rather humble and ready to listen! Every patch is different, and each has its own atmosphere and its own quirks. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/11/2023 at 23:42, The Johnster said:

 

Llanwern had a deadly reputation during my time as a guard in the 70s, once you went in there it would inevitably be some time before you got out again.  I suspect the handling of the iron ore hoppers from Newport Docks and the later tipplers from Port Talbot was done quite smartly, but these trains turned right shortly after entering the reception roads from the east and dissappeared into the wilderness of the unloading plant to the east of the smelting area, where we never went. 

 

Going in there with coal or limestone, or strip mill empties, you were routed off the up relief into the reception roads, where you might well be in a queue behind other traffic; there was room for two or three full length trains (it was, and still is, a properly enormous site).  This would take an hour or two to clear before you'd even got to the STOP board, where of course you had to await a handsignal from the reception shunters before proceeding.  The cabin was a few hundred yards away, and occasionally somebody would come out and seem to look in your direction, so you'd blow your horn at him, and he'd go back in the cabin.  After the best part of another hour, you would be called forward and a shunter would climb aboard your loco to shepherd you to where the traffic was to be left in the recep yard.  The loco would be cut off, but would have to await it's turn in the queue to be released, either towards the down exit to the down relief, where you might well be held up by traffic heading for the tipplers, or at the Bishton end to head for STJ.  I never went in there from the Bishton end but came out light engine that way once.

 

But I did the approach from the up relief probably half a dozen times, and each time found without exception that the place's reputation was thoroughly deserved.  I admire your loyalty to the men who worked under you when you were a rail manager there, Mike, and this might have been at a different period when things had improved of course, but I can assure you that in the 70s mention of Llanwern would result in eyes being rolled and any hope of getting home by teatime abandoned.  I accept that there may well have been factors of which we were not aware that would have explained this, but, um, we weren't aware of them.  Three or four hours at least, day or night, and on one occasion I was stranded for 6 and a half hours, mostly waiting in the STOP board queue!

 

Not helped by being so far away from the cabin most of the time, no chance of boiling water for a cuppa.

 

I put it down to the general layout of the place, which looked very sensible on the surface of things, a simple pair of permissive block or yard control loops up and down for the four miles or so that the site extended with junctions off to various operations; it looked very efficient.  But at Cardiff East Moors, and Margam, and Trostre, you ran into a yard (Cardiff Marshalling, Margam Abbey, Llandeilo Jc) off the main running lines that was a little away from the steelworks, and your loco would be uncoupled, you'd hand your load to the yard foreman if it was pre-TOPS, back through and empty road and right away Canton light engine; your traffic would be tripped into the steelworks exchange sidings by a yard pilot and handed over to the steelworks engine and shunter, by which time you could be miles away and probably tucked up in bed...

As I said - your lack of understanding of the working there.

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/11/2023 at 19:20, Oldddudders said:

Yes, the tram-track jibe was very common north of the river, too. Thus when a career move required a northern manager to take up a Southern role, the complexity of the network - on all three Districts/Divisions/Sections - and the frequency of services often meant they turned up rather humble and ready to listen! Every patch is different, and each has its own atmosphere and its own quirks. 

Always called the tramway on theh Western in my experience - and that term was even used by severeal managers who had come over to us (we also being known as the broad gauge railway').   Amusingly I took over responsibility for freight train planning and the newly established freight Control office on the former SR  in 1992 under sectorisation.  And two years later I actually moved to Waterloo on promotion to spend the final part of my 'big railway' working life on former SR territory .  But we did manage to move in quite a bit of ex WR talent so my team was quite a lively little group at times although I think folk from one part of the Southern had more to say about 'he's off the Central' rather than 'he's off the Western'.  Or when we were looking to fill a post - get so & so he;s a good bloke even if he was on the South Eastern'. albeit that was the bit over which most of our passenger train mileage was worked.

 

All great fun and no nastiness.

Edited November 10, 2023 by The Stationmaster
usual

[adb968008]

On 06/11/2023 at 23:15, pete_mcfarlane said:

This applies in pretty much every organisation - the other team/site/business unit is always full of morons who don't know what they are doing. 

Some of the comments I read on here, I think some members think that way of others.

[Siberian Snooper]

There was/are ex-Royal Dockyard rivalry, it even permeates into football.

 

 

[caradoc]

On 08/11/2023 at 19:20, Oldddudders said:

Yes, the tram-track jibe was very common north of the river, too.

 

And very much further north of the river too - In Scottish Region Control the Glasgow electric desks were referred to as the tramcar sections! We retorted by pointing out that we ran more trains in an hour than the sheep-molesting section controllers did in a week.....