A Week's Rail-Trip Around NW Europe or the UK - help with my itinerary?

[Lacathedrale]

I have a sabbatical coming up at work - I'm thinking of taking it in June and so I am planning to take 7-10 days of it to use travelling around Europe on the rails. With a young family, this opportunity is unlikely to come around again and with spousal blessing I'm putting together some ideas.

 

I would like to see the some of the major gaps in my experience, but I'm not quite sure where to start. I see two major choices (below) and ideally for both I'd like to use the railways as my main form of transport, but I do have a driving license (my car has to stay at home with mum and daughter) so I could rent at the destination.

Option 1 - Scotland
A big bucket-list thing for me to do is heading "up North" to Glasgow and then around the West Highland Line, then Inverness and the Far North Line. Spread over a week or so I feel like this may be a relaxed and enjoyable trip, but likely devoid of much in the way of preserved railways, steam or otherwise. I understand The Jacobite is a possibility, but likely expensive and rammed with tourists?

 

Option 2- French and German Steam
A second bucket-list thing is to see and enjoy some classic French or German steam action, but I have no idea where best to go amongst France, Germany, Austria or Switzerland to see. I have gone skiing a few times and driven through the alps in summer so I'm not that interested in repeating that despite how spectacular the scenery is. I'm not that interested in modern multiple units or locomotives, so I'm mostly curious about preservation and ambience.

 

I'm sure there are subtler divisions of both options but I would really appreciate some help in narrowing down my ideas.

 

Many thanks,

William

[Oldddudders]

The biggest concentration of steam is probably the narrow-gauge lines in the former East Germany, of which the most extensive is the metre-gauge Harz system, which has 90 route-miles. It can be reached by main-line trains to Wernigerode. There are 17 2-10-2 tank engines....

 

Other steam lines in the same part of Germany are numerous, but not all are main-line connected.

 

I have heard of, but have no experience of, Ffestiniog Travel as advisers on European rail trips. Check out their website. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A great 'day trip' in the UK  in June is Euston - Glasgow - (+ option) -Edinburgh- KX. 

 The + option is that you don't have to go by the shortest route between G and E, especially with the extended daylight in June.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I understand The Jacobite is a possibility, but likely expensive and rammed with tourists?

 

 

 

I don't know so much. It seems to me that most just want to watch it go over the viaduct rather than ride on it!

 

Standard tickets seem reasonable compared to other attractions.

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/jacobite/fare-prices

 

 

 

Jason

[Nick C]

If you're looking at Eastern Germany, it's not too far to pop across the Polish border to Wolsztyn, where you can still experience main line scheduled steam - hopefully it will continue into 2024, though I'm not sure how secure their funding is since the sad loss of Howard Jones earlier this year.

 

http://www.parowozy.com.pl/

[Lacathedrale]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

A great 'day trip' in the UK  in June is Euston - Glasgow - (+ option) -Edinburgh- KX. 

 The + option is that you don't have to go by the shortest route between G and E, especially with the extended daylight in June.

the +option being WHL -Inverness? If I did this is the west highland or far north line a better journey? Or should I definitely do both?

[Lacathedrale]

21 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The biggest concentration of steam is probably the narrow-gauge lines in the former East Germany, of which the most extensive is the metre-gauge Harz system, which has 90 route-miles. It can be reached by main-line trains to Wernigerode. There are 17 2-10-2 tank engines....

 

Other steam lines in the same part of Germany are numerous, but not all are main-line connected.

 

I have heard of, but have no experience of, Ffestiniog Travel as advisers on European rail trips. Check out their website. 

 

Some googling showed the Harz to me too - looks like it's a strong contender. I would say to most people asking that the Talyllyn could be done in a day, the Ffestiniog in a day, and the WHR in a day - but it seems like the Harz is much bigger and more complex than that? Is there more than 'just' train rides (i.e. museums, workshops, tours, things to see at the stops, etc.?)

[Captain Kernow]

I would also just like to endorse the Harz system. Three individual routes (all linked), forming a real network of narrow gauge.

 

My personal, direct experience is limited to an ascent of the Brocken from Drei Annen Hohne (near Wernigerode), which was absolutely spectacular. You can ride on the end balcony of the carriages, right next to the loco, it's utterly spectacular.

 

My all time favourite NG line, though, remains the Welsh Highland. It would be serendipity if the FR company were offering one of their rare through trains from Caernarvon to Blaenau Ffestiniog when you are visiting!

 

[Lacathedrale]

53 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I would also just like to endorse the Harz system. Three individual routes (all linked), forming a real network of narrow gauge.

 

My personal, direct experience is limited to an ascent of the Brocken from Drei Annen Hohne (near Wernigerode), which was absolutely spectacular. You can ride on the end balcony of the carriages, right next to the loco, it's utterly spectacular.

 

My all time favourite NG line, though, remains the Welsh Highland. It would be serendipity if the FR company were offering one of their rare through trains from Caernarvon to Blaenau Ffestiniog when you are visiting!

 

 

I did Ffestiniog and Talyllyn on one holiday and I have confirmation the next trip will include Corris and WHR - so don't worry about that part of it.

 

I'm hearing that midges may be a big problem while visiting the highlands in June :(

[woodenhead]

If I had the choice of a week or so riding the rails I would not choose the UK.

 

The little trains of Wales are all items you can choose to do at fairly short notice, can be picked off individually with maybe an overnight stay and take the kids along too as well without it becoming an onerous journey. 

 

If this is going to be an one off opportunity I would be thinking what would be the least likely I could achieve if this opportunity did not exist and go with that.   The Harz system and possible Poland fall into that category I would imagine.

[Lacathedrale]

@woodenhead wales yes, but highlands is more difficult for me to do at the drop of a hat (being on the south coast!). I get your point.

 

FWIW I'm not interested in Poland at all, my ex-wife was Polish and the less I have to do with anything that even remotely reminds me of that awful woman, the better.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

I would also just like to endorse the Harz system. Three individual routes (all linked), forming a real network of narrow gauge.

 

My personal, direct experience is limited to an ascent of the Brocken from Drei Annen Hohne (near Wernigerode), which was absolutely spectacular. You can ride on the end balcony of the carriages, right next to the loco, it's utterly spectacular.

If you want spectacular, then Brocken is it, as CK says. 1142 m ASL, the highest peak in Northern Germany, it was formerly the site of an East German (i.e. Russian) listening and observation post overlooking the wicked west. Magnificent views, and the sight and sounds of the loco busting a gut to get you there are pretty rewarding, again as CK has said.

 

 

Unlike most preserved railways, in season there is a real busyness about the Harz. Drei Annen Hohne, one of several junctions for example, has three trains in at once in the mid-afternoon, each with a different destination, and including a loco swap.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

16 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

the +option being WHL -Inverness? If I did this is the west highland or far north line a better journey? Or should I definitely do both?

Difficult for me to answer as the railway would actually be secondary to the geology and geomorphology, and there's also the little cultural matter of the Edinburgh Enlightenment, and the extraordinary location of this city in an extinct volcanic landscape.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I like both the Scottish Highlands and the Harz Mountains. Both take about 3 or 4 days to "do" in terms of ride on all of the network, so if you have 7 to 10 days you probably want to either take things slowly or else add other attractions. Alternatively, if you want to photograph trains rather than ride on them, you can use up any amount of time (but you'll almost certainly need a car).

 

17 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

the +option being WHL -Inverness? If I did this is the west highland or far north line a better journey? Or should I definitely do both?

The West Highland and the Kyle lines are among the most beautiful railway journeys anywhere in the world, in my opinion. The Far North line isn't quite in the same league, but I'd have no hesitation in riding it again if I happened to have a spare day in Inverness (and didn't want to go to Kyle).

 

Don't omit Oban in your travels, and you can save time (not that saving time is a really a good thing in your case, from what you say) by taking the ferry from Mallaig to Armadale and then taking the bus from there to Kyle rather than returning to Glasgow. The Highland line is a better route to/from Inverness than going via Aberdeen, if you only need to do it one way. You can stop off at the Strathspey Railway on the way. Further south, if it's not somewhere you've been before, I suggest going from Perth to Dundee then across the Tay and Forth Bridges to Edinburgh.

 

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Some googling showed the Harz to me too - looks like it's a strong contender. I would say to most people asking that the Talyllyn could be done in a day, the Ffestiniog in a day, and the WHR in a day - but it seems like the Harz is much bigger and more complex than that? Is there more than 'just' train rides (i.e. museums, workshops, tours, things to see at the stops, etc.?)

I can't remember if there's a museum, but what there is - which is very hard to find elsewhere - is an interconnected steam railway network.There are also diesel railcars, particularly once you leave Wernigerode - Brocken. Drei Annen Hosen is worth spending an hour or more at when an Eisfelde or Nordhausen train is calling, for then there'll be three steam trains in the station together, all going to different destinations, and probably doing loco swaps as well. The last time I went was in the winter and I covered almost all the network with steam, staying at Nordhausen and Wernigerode, and taking the standard gauge one day to Quedlinburg (which is worth a visit in itself). This didn't  allow me to do the Alexisbad - Harzgerode line, but that's the only bit I missed. I think there's a second steam locomotive on the Selketalbahn (the southern/eastern part of the network) in summer, which might make it easier to complete the entire network.

[Lacathedrale]

@Jeremy Cumberland thank you for that exhaustive reply! @34theletterbetweenB&D I'll cover your suggestion too.

 

So a Scottish itinerary might look something like:

 

Day 1: Sussex to Glasgow (6hrs)
Day 2: Highland Line to Ft William (4hr), then Mallaig (1.5hr)

Day 3: Ferry from Mallaig to Armadale (1hr), then bus to Kyle of Lochalsh (1hr) then Inverness (2.5hrs)
Day 4: Inverness to Edinburgh (via Perth/Dundee) (3.5hrs) with a potential stop at the Strathspey Railway
Day 5: Edinburgh to Sussex (5.5hrs)

 

I have visited Edinburgh a couple of times so happy to stop off there but thinking that I could combine Day 4+5 together to a single long journey back home - thus making the whole thing a three night trip and being able to do it in addition to a trip to Harz rather than instead of - and potentially late April/May instead of in midge season? I appreciate Oban and the Far North line are just around the corner, figuratively - but doing that as a second trip next year might be more palatable if I want to squeeze Harz in this year.



 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Lacathedrale

[The Johnster]

On 08/11/2023 at 11:41, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Difficult for me to answer as the railway would actually be secondary to the geology and geomorphology, and there's also the little cultural matter of the Edinburgh Enlightenment, and the extraordinary location of this city in an extinct volcanic landscape.

 

And it would be not difficult to arrange a visit to Hutton's Unconformity from Edinburgh either.  The revelation and inspirational moment he experienced here is a genuinely major moment in scientific history, not perhaps on a par with Darwin's voyage on the Beagle but not far short of it!  The gulfs of time it opened up must have been breathtaking, and the spot would certainly be on my list for an Edinburgh trip!

[jonhall]

On 07/11/2023 at 11:14, Lacathedrale said:

 

 

Option 2- French and German Steam
A second bucket-list thing is to see and enjoy some classic French or German steam action, but I have no idea where best to go amongst France, Germany, Austria or Switzerland to see. I have gone skiing a few times and driven through the alps in summer so I'm not that interested in repeating that despite how spectacular the scenery is. I'm not that interested in modern multiple units or locomotives, so I'm mostly curious about preservation and ambience.

 

 

The two biggest German mainline steam events are the Dresden Dampfloktreffen in April, and the Meiningen loco works open day usually the first weekend of September. Those are guaranteed to get you mainline steam.

 

The standard gauge preservation scene is rather different to the UK in Germany, many more roundhouses with a mainline loco, rather than a preserved line, and those lines that there are tend to be Sunday afternoon only events. 

 

Easier are narrow gauge, with 3 obvious concentrations, the Harz, the lines around Dresden, and the two lines on the Baltic there will operate every day most of the year.

 

Jon

 

 

[MyRule1]

There are two key elements to the question @LACastellon1946 asks which are missing. What is his budget and is he willing to fly? With the Highland Rover ticket the Scottish element can be done in the four days on the ticket and the Hartz system in the others but this would require flying for various links.

 

I have used the Highland Rover three times and much part of the Hartz system. If it was a choice I would go for the Hartz for the scenery and heritage trains. One feature of Scotland in June are the long daylight hours but a week on DMU can get you down. The midges have never bothered me.

 

Apart from budget and flying, the other question is what other interests do you have apart from trains. It's a waste to go so far and miss out on other attractions.

,

[jonhall]

 

also for Germany https://eisenbahnplaner.net/?page=&lang=en gives some of the events on in Germany, but can be a bit hit and miss - certainly dosn't cover everything, and not always early enough to book tickets from the UK, but might be worth a check in the week or two before travel.

 

Good tours run (mostly) by societies - I've used all 4, slightly complicated by my lack of German, but I muddled through.

 

https://www.lausitzerdampflokclub.de/

https://www.eisenbahn-nostalgiefahrten-bebra.de/

https://www.historische-eisenbahn-frankfurt.de/

https://www.stoomstichting.nl/ Dutch, but are proposing a Pentecost multi-day tour into Germany - probably with their 01 or 23 (or maybe even both?)

 

IGE run commercial tours for a German market, but it might give indications where things are happening.

https://www.ige-erlebnisreisen.de/start/index.php

 

Bigger museums

https://www.bayerisches-eisenbahnmuseum.de/index.php?lang=de large collection of locos - often run railtours and photocharters over local lines

Darmstadt 

https://bahnwelt.de/

Bochum Dahlhausen

https://eisenbahnmuseum-bochum.de/

 

Also consider the Technic museums at either Sinsheim or Speyer 

https://speyer.technik-museum.de/

https://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by jonhall

[Lacathedrale]

On 13/11/2023 at 08:20, MyRule1 said:

There are two key elements to the question @LACastellon1946 asks which are missing. What is his budget and is he willing to fly? With the Highland Rover ticket the Scottish element can be done in the four days on the ticket and the Hartz system in the others but this would require flying for various links.

 

I have used the Highland Rover three times and much part of the Hartz system. If it was a choice I would go for the Hartz for the scenery and heritage trains. One feature of Scotland in June are the long daylight hours but a week on DMU can get you down. The midges have never bothered me.

 

Apart from budget and flying, the other question is what other interests do you have apart from trains. It's a waste to go so far and miss out on other attractions.

,

 

Indoors on a trip I like reading, museums and pre-modern art, music of the romantic period and jazz, and hearty food. Outdoors I like hiking.

 

My dates are fairly set I'm afraid @jonhall - so I'll miss those events.

Non-railway Scots I've spoken to have suggested that some extra time to see the sights around Glencoe, Skye, etc. is well worth it - but I should caveat that I am definitely going to Scotland with my family for a fly-drive oriented trip so I'm not so much missing these things as deferring them. I think I might put Oban in that same category.

 

As for Germany, I'll do some more research on the Harz - I hadn't considered doing both trips in one, I think I might end up getting way too stressed to organise it all simultaneously but I'll have a look.

[jonhall]

7 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Indoors on a trip I like reading, museums and pre-modern art, music of the romantic period and jazz, and hearty food. Outdoors I like hiking.

 

 

Dresden as a base to do the Saxon narrow gauge lines (Zittau, Oshatz, Radeburg,  and Freital) plus 'Saxon Switzerland' around Bad Shandau would still tick a lot of your boxes. You might hit lucky with a mainline tour from Dresden, Chemnitz, Löbau, Cottbus or Nossen who all have mainline loco's and occasionally do tours. 

 

Meiningen works does tours on a Saturday morning - albeit in German.

https://www.db-fzi.com/fahrzeuginstandhaltung-de/Werk-Meiningen-6282258

[jonhall]

The Vivat Viaduckt festival might be the right sort of time of year - when I last went I think I arrived on a special train behind a ?78? from Gutersloh

https://www.vivat-viadukt.de/viadukt/index.php

 

If of course it happens in 2024.

 

Jon

[MyRule1]

9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Indoors on a trip I like reading, museums and pre-modern art, music of the romantic period and jazz, and hearty food. Outdoors I like hiking.

Well Dresden's the place for that. We were fortunate that we were in the city on their Museums at Night event next it's on

https://museumsnacht.dresden.de/

 

It was a great experience.

 

Which may not match your dates.

 

[Torper]

Just a word of warning about Germany in June - the country is hosting Euro 2024 between 14 June and 14 July and it is likely that prices, both travel and accommodation, will be sky high during that time.  There may also be a lot of footie supporters about.  One railway holiday company with which I have travelled in the past has decided not to hold any holidays in Germany in June/July for that reason - apparently they were caught out this year when they traevelled back through Paris during the Rugby world cup and ended up paying £400 a head for Eurostar.

[Lacathedrale]

That is a fantastic point, thank you @Torper!

 

maybe it is a better idea to look for heritage railways in the north of England to add on to my Scotland trip?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Lacathedrale