RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9 I think you should include the Lima mk1s in that, John. Airfix were the first to make goods wagons with the brake blocks in line with the wheels (actually, of course, this is a deliberate departure from scale, as the blocks have to be moved inboard to do this for 00 wheels), and Mainline were the first to produce 7-plank and 16ton steel minerals on the correct wheelbase. Airfix had been doing this for many years of course with plastic kits, which had the refinement of separate handbrake levers. Airfix/Lima/Mainline were a quantum step forward in livery application and finishes as well, and Airfix, to their credit and Lima's shame, did something about the hideous tension-lock couplings as well, with a product not dissimilar to the current NEM compatible. ISTR there was much discussion in magazines of the day on the matter of hiding motors & gears, and the presence of daylight beneath boilers to improve the silhouette view of steam engines, and the A/L/M products were very much in line with that philosophy. We've come a long way! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9 (edited) On 09/01/2024 at 03:11, The Johnster said: I think you should include the Lima mk1s in that, John. Airfix were the first to make goods wagons with the brake blocks in line with the wheels (actually, of course, this is a deliberate departure from scale, as the blocks have to be moved inboard to do this for 00 wheels), and Mainline were the first to produce 7-plank and 16ton steel minerals on the correct wheelbase. Airfix had been doing this for many years of course with plastic kits, which had the refinement of separate handbrake levers. Airfix/Lima/Mainline were a quantum step forward in livery application and finishes as well, and Airfix, to their credit and Lima's shame, did something about the hideous tension-lock couplings as well, with a product not dissimilar to the current NEM compatible. ISTR there was much discussion in magazines of the day on the matter of hiding motors & gears, and the presence of daylight beneath boilers to improve the silhouette view of steam engines, and the A/L/M products were very much in line with that philosophy. We've come a long way! I wasn't certain of the chronology on Lima Mk1's which is why I left them out. Were they launched prior to Airfix/Mainline or contemporaneously? Unfortunately, proper 9'-wheelbase PO wagons and 16-ton minerals only arrived with Bachmann. The Mainline ones used "universal" 10' wheelbase underframes for both, as did Airfix for their 7-plankers. The latter still pollute the r-t-r scene to this day, having been perpetuated by both Dapol and Hornby. That said, whilst short on detail by today's standards, the dimensional accuracy of the most rest of the Airfix rolling stock remains impressive. All three brands deserve credit for giving the 1970s status quo the kick up the ar5e that shook the industry out of long-term stagnation and triggered the march toward the quality we nowadays expect. John Edited January 18 by Dunsignalling 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Were they that great a step change from the standards set by Hornby Dublo's super detail wagons ? ......... most of those were let down by chunky diecast chassis but apart from the opening door hinges the Southern CCT is little bettered by the current Bachmann product. ( and the side vents were the right size ! ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9 (edited) 12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: All three brands deserve credit for giving the 1970s status quo the kick up the ar5e that shook the industry out of long-term stagnation and triggered the march toward the quality we nowadays expect. This, what he said. Absolutely. Can't recall the Lima chronology now, it was a long time ago and I've slept a couple of time since. Lima's first efforts were in H0, and arguably the last chance for the trade to adopt British H0 standards and get rid of this compromised 00 nonsence we have dug ourselves into, but very soon conformed with the others. When they did conform, they rapidly proved themselves masters of plastic inejection moulding, turning out very highly detailed bodyshells, coaches, and wagons. 10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Were they that great a step change from the standards set by Hornby Dublo's super detail wagons ? I'd say yes, definitely. Dublo 'super detail' were pretty good in the 60s, as were some of Triang's wagons, though solebar level and below was awful on both of them. Some of the SD bodies are still around, available from Dapol, and I have to say that I wasn't impressed with my all-steel hyfit. Dapol sells these with incorrect mineral loads, because there is a massive screwhead in the middle of the wagon floor holding it to the chassis. The sides are too high as well. Went in the bin. Dap are also still knocking out the Fruit D, though they have improved the underpinnings a bit, and this is another one well off scale dimensions. Mine got cut'n'shut into a Fruit C. The SD cattle wagon is also off-scale, and Dap sell a version of this as a meat van, with enclosed sides, still off-scale, and both have incorrect wheelbase chassis. The Bachmann PMV has correct sized and shaped windows, which the SD didn't. Don't know how bad the others were or weren't, as I had little experience of them. The best of them IMHO, and I have one running on Cwmdimbath with a Baccy chassis, was the Mica B/Tevan insulated cooler, which must be due for a revist in RTR from someone sometime soon! I've repainted this and given it new number/lettering xfers; the original application of these is a weak point on all the HD SD wagons. Their tinplate stuff has yet to be bettered in this respect... Plastic wagon bodyshells are easy enough to mould, and Triang's weren't bad except for the raised joins between the planks. Nowt wrong with the detailing on their 16t mineral, and the bogie bolster, bogie well (Crocodile) and Murgatroyd's bogie chemical tank were pretty good for their day, the tank having proper ladders and GW-type plate bogies; another one overdue for current RTR attention. Triang's rode too high off the rails by about 2mm, which made the smaller goods vans look particularly silly. But both firms made some good and some not very good wagons and vans, and neither's ran well or freely. For that you went to Trix! The 70s new boys radically changed our expectaions of loco scale and detail, although the use of pancake motors and plastic spur gears was a backward step, and did well with coaches (we are unimpressed by Hornby's A30 auto-trailer but it was ground-breaking when Airfix brought it out. as was the B set). Goods stock took a bit longer to catch up, but reasonable 7-plank minerals, Hyfits, Vanfits, and Conflats appeared fairly quickly. Liveries were pretty good but there were far too many spurious neverwazza PO liveries, on everything! They started the move towards current standard RTR, but the later step up in detail (especially discrete small parts), running, wheel appearance, and decent turned buffers, we owe to the Chinese. The 70s new boys failed, IMHO and despite the undoubted improvements they brought, to shake off the trainset mentality, which never provided us with scale or well-detailed RTR, but we have a new set of new boys in town and they are producing high quality RTR in complementary ranges. The hobby is being shaken up again, and this is usually good in the longer term; no comfort to those who lost their jobs at Hatton's yesterday, though... Edited January 9 by The Johnster 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9 10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: Were they that great a step change from the standards set by Hornby Dublo's super detail wagons ? ......... most of those were let down by chunky diecast chassis but apart from the opening door hinges the Southern CCT is little bettered by the current Bachmann product. ( and the side vents were the right size ! ) The problem with the ex-HD vans (other than the SR CCT I think) is the excess width, which has been perpetuated by Bachmann, Dapol, and Hornby in most cases. I suspect it was done just to make things match what people already had! Compare one from any if the three mentioned above to the corresponding kitbuilt from Ratio or Parkside and you'll see what I mean.. Rapido vans in contrast, are spot on, and I'm confident of Accurascale getting the SR Banana vans right, too. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 51 minutes ago, The Johnster said: ... The Bachmann PMV has correct sized and shaped windows, which the SD didn't. ... You're thinking of the horrible plastic version of the K's kit ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9 Yeah, that was another one not to shout home about... The Parkside always looks a bit lacking in the window department to my view as well. As for the Triang PLV... and that was still in production quite recently! I had a Roxified one that I was rather pleased with, then the new Hornby RTR blew it out of the water in every respect! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegs Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: 🤞😁 8 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 17 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17 (edited) I still haven't decided which variant/livery I require. I need to dig out my existing locos and check. I *think* I'm lacking shirt button livery so that limits my options here on the first run. Edited January 17 by 57xx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVMR21 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 10 hours ago, Keegs said: I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: 🤞😁 Yes!!!! Whilst it's not the most painful livery to recreate, it would certainly be good to see rtr from this tooling, and others... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 (edited) On 09/01/2024 at 20:07, The Johnster said: >> Some of the SD bodies are still around, available from Dapol, and I have to say that I wasn't impressed with my all-steel hyfit. Dapol sells these with incorrect mineral loads, because there is a massive screwhead in the middle of the wagon floor holding it to the chassis. The ex-LNER "Green Arrow" steel opens did (at least occasionally) carry coal. There's a published photo of one, dated 1962, in the United Dairies milk depot sidings at Chard Junction. It also shows a similarly loaded wooden-bodied Hyfit as well as the expected 16-tonner.... Working the Chard Branch, by Derek Phillips and R. Eaton-Lacey, Fox & Co., 1991, p.26. John Edited January 18 by Dunsignalling 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 19 hours ago, Keegs said: I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: 🤞😁 I'd like to see an RTR loco in the 1942-1945 Caerphilly Works wartime austerity livery; GWS as Didcot have put it on a few of their locos and it was fairly common in South Wales up to the Nationalisation transition period. Unlined black or green with G W R initials in 'grotesque' script, despite the name a bit like Gill Sans but not quite... 2721s. 57xx/8750s, 56xx, 42xx, some absorbed South Wales classes, and probably others carried the livery, though TTBOMK no tender engines did. AFAIAA. nobody does transfers in this script either. It's a mostly forgotten and rather plain livery but deserves it's place in my view. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 hours ago, The Johnster said: 57xx/8750s, 56xx, 42xx, some absorbed South Wales classes, and probably others carried the livery I don't know of any evidence of a 57xx/8750 carrying Grotesque font insignia. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18 ISTR seeing a photo of one in E.R.Mountford's book about the works, but I could be mistaken, it was a long time ago and my copy has vanished in one of my house moves (there were a lot of these, sometimes in stressful circumstances, during my post-divorce unsettled period, which lasted 30 years). 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 23 hours ago, Keegs said: I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: 🤞😁 Bachmann already did that one recently though. So maybe a different number? Looking at what ones seem to be most/least popular I noticed the NCB is lowest. Could it be that many already have that one so don't want another? I didn't manage to get one, so it's on the list. Funnily enough now running in BRITISH RAILWAYS green! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1383538558625307/ Jason Edited January 18 by Steamport Southport 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegs Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Bachmann already did that one recently though. So maybe a different number? Looking at what ones seem to be most/least popular I noticed the NCB is lowest. Could it be that many already have that one so don't want another? I didn't manage to get one, so it's on the list. Funnily enough now running in BRITISH RAILWAYS green! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1383538558625307/ Jason Yes def different number, wartime black lasted a few 57xx all the way until the 60s so would "fit" anything ww2 onwards (one of my layout ears is 1948-52 so br black is pushing it a bit for a lowly pannier & I have a few other locos in br so wartime black would make a nice contrast!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Many WWII-black panniers would have missed the brief post-war green 'interval' of 1945-7. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19 14 hours ago, The Johnster said: ISTR seeing a photo of one in E.R.Mountford's book about the works, but I could be mistaken, it was a long time ago and my copy has vanished in one of my house moves (there were a lot of these, sometimes in stressful circumstances, during my post-divorce unsettled period, which lasted 30 years). You are indeed mistaken - not only is there no pannier in that livery in EM's book there is nothing else in it either (and to make sure I have just gone through all the illustrations oin the book). As I agrred, by 'tick' with Miss P I too cannot recall seeing any illustration of a pannier with that lettering (and I'm not going to go through umpteen dozens of books on my shelves to check my memory in that respect). I'm not saying it didn't happen but evidence thus far is not forthcoming. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
didcot Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 On 17/01/2024 at 22:28, Keegs said: I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: Had my first ever footplate ride on 3738. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19 On 17/01/2024 at 22:28, Keegs said: I’m hoping for a wartime black variant Accurascale exclusive or in a future 2nd run! eg: 🤞😁 I'm far too impatient for that, will be buying either a green GWR example and respraying or a BR black and rebranding / removing the smokebox number 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19 6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: You are indeed mistaken - not only is there no pannier in that livery in EM's book there is nothing else in it either (and to make sure I have just gone through all the illustrations oin the book). As I agrred, by 'tick' with Miss P I too cannot recall seeing any illustration of a pannier with that lettering (and I'm not going to go through umpteen dozens of books on my shelves to check my memory in that respect). I'm not saying it didn't happen but evidence thus far is not forthcoming. I have edited my post accordingly. It would be surprising if Caerphilly did not have any 57xx/8750s through the pain shops over a three-year period, all the same; these engines were bread-and-butter jobs there by the 40s. But film was expensive and not always easy to source during the austerity period, and these ordinary types were not prioritised by photographers. I may have been thinking of the painted 'numberplates' applied in the 50s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19 5 hours ago, The Fatadder said: I'm far too impatient for that, will be buying either a green GWR example and respraying or a BR black and rebranding / removing the smokebox number Hopefully the Accurascale smokebox number will be easier to remove than the Bachmann one? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Accurascale Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 Exciting news, Further EPs to our all-new GWR Pannier project have arrived and they're jam-packed with never previously done detail! We're pleased to be able to show you some variants for the first time including the NCB Pannier '7754', which correctly doesn't have a toolbox or train brake (and heat), also seen here are our 67xx samples which bring another variety of pannier to the market for the first time. These models are also without train braking but do still have their toolboxes. Another feature not yet shown is the BR-era smokebox door with its separately applied etched numberplate. With all these variations and many more, it's a real game of spot the difference. Browse the full range and Pre-order today with NO money down: https://www.accurascale.com/collections/gwr-57xx-67xx-8750-pannier-tank 25 1 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 20 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20 14 hours ago, Captain Kernow said: Hopefully the Accurascale smokebox number will be easier to remove than the Bachmann one? Based on the continently times photos by Accurascale it looks like it shouldn’t be too difficult seeing as it appears to be a separate part. Though to be honest I’ve removed it from so many Bachmann / Hornby locos with a solid plate I’m not too worried 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 20 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20 5 minutes ago, The Fatadder said: Based on the continently times photos by Accurascale it looks like it shouldn’t be too difficult seeing as it appears to be a separate part. Though to be honest I’ve removed it from so many Bachmann / Hornby locos with a solid plate I’m not too worried Same here, but it is nevertheless a faff, so the Accurascale design looks good. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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