Novice`s questions re DCC sound fitted locomotives

[Monte]

I am an analogue user and know next to nothing about DCC fitted locos, so I wonder if anyone can answer these probably stupid questions! A friend of mine has become very interested in sound fitted locos and would love to have his 00 gauge analog locos sound fitted. Some of his locos (the newer ones) say the are "DCC ready" which run on his analog layout, and obviously so do his older ones which were bought before DCC came along. I think I read somewhere however that a "DCC fitted" loco won`t run on analogue and you have to take the chip out and replace it with a "blanking plate" Is this correct and if so where do you get these plates from?

Having just looked on EBAY I saw a loco advertised as "with sound" but the description said the loco was an analogue one. Can this be right, I was not aware analogue locos can have sound only modules in them, I presumed to have sound you must have a normal DCC fitted loco.

I`ve also read on one Ebay seller`s loco description that it was fitted with a "Loksound" V (something or other ) sound module, and the seller went on to some length about how it worked, and gave examples of what the module would do eg. press F5 for squeeling brakes, press F6 for acceleration noise etc. This all sounds terribly complicated! Presumalby then there are lots of different sound module makes about , and if so do they all do different things?  Also what kind of controller do you need to operate locos that are sound fitted? 

Sorry if these questions are somewhat daft, but I was thinking of getting my friend a sound fitted loco for Christmas if he goes down this route  but I have no idea what to look for!

 

Hope someone can help!

 

Kind regards, 

Monte

[DaveArkley]

17 minutes ago, Monte said:

I think I read somewhere however that a "DCC fitted" loco won`t run on analogue and you have to take the chip out and replace it with a "blanking plate" Is this correct and if so where do you get these plates from?

Not necessary, DCC fitted locos will run on analogue. Some decoders allow you to switch off the ability to run on DC, so you may need to turn that option back on. 

17 minutes ago, Monte said:

Having just looked on EBAY I saw a loco advertised as "with sound" but the description said the loco was an analogue one. Can this be right, I was not aware analogue locos can have sound only modules in them, I presumed to have sound you must have a normal DCC fitted loco.

A limited subset of the sounds will work on analogue, it depends how the sound project has been set up. You'll need to be using DCC to get the full range of sounds.

17 minutes ago, Monte said:

 This all sounds terribly complicated! Presumalby then there are lots of different sound module makes about , and if so do they all do different things?  Also what kind of controller do you need to operate locos that are sound fitted? 

You can use any compatible DC controller, avoid things like PWM or feedback analogue controllers as these can 'upset' the decoder.

17 minutes ago, Monte said:

Sorry if these questions are somewhat daft, but I was thinking of getting my friend a sound fitted loco for Christmas if he goes down this route  but I have no idea what to look for!

Not daft questions, if you don't know, you don't know; better to check on this forum rather than guess and make a costly mistake! 

 

Cheers

Dave

[peterm1]

Just to add. The opposite can't/shouldn't be done. That is to run a non DCC fitted loco on a DCC track. Doing this can damage the motor.

[n9]

Some answers from what I've picked up over the last year or two. Others can jump in if something isn't quite right.

 

For locos you buy off the shelf:

 

"DCC Ready" means you can separately buy a DCC decoder for the loco and fit it yourself. Decoders are usually just a small chip you plug into a socket inside the loco, making it compatible with DCC. But be aware that there are different types of chip with different numbers of pins. Basically you just need to make sure that the number of pins on the decoder is the same as the number of pins in the socket. The number of pins tends to vary by scale, so for N, 18 or 6 pins are quite common, and for HO/OO I think 21 pins is more common. Also, the number of functions available and their assignments can vary by decoder manufacturer, e.g. F10 may not do the same thing. "DCC Ready" locos will come with a "blanking plate" - that's just a chip fitted where the decoder would go, and lets the loco work without having a decoder fitted. There are fans of different makes of decoder for different reasons, but that's as a different question.

 

"DCC Fitted" means it comes with the DCC decoder already plugged into the socket of a "DCC Ready" loco, and the blanking plate will be included in case you ever want to take the decoder out.

 

"DCC Sound Fitted" means it comes with a DCC decoder that can handle sound plugged into the socket, plus the sounds it needs loaded onto it, and a speaker (or more than one) all wired up and ready to go. Usually having all this doubles the price of a loco.

 

For really old locos, I think it can require a lot of work to make them compatible with DCC, and it may not be worth it. There may for instance not be enough room inside the loco to fit the board and socket needed for a decoder, and you'll have to make that room yourself. You'll also need to take care of the wiring. There are more considerations.

 

Similarly for sound. Unless explicitly stated by the manufacturer, there probably won't be room to fit a speaker and you'll need to figure out how to get it in there.

 

Probably a good idea to check out YouChoos. While their web site is a little chaotic, there are guides there for fitting sound to locos (as well as all the gear needed) and you should at least be able to get the gist of what's involved. The owner is also extremely helpful if you drop him an email.

 

At the moment I control my DCC locos on my PC. My command station (Digikeijs DR5000) comes with PC software that lets you do just that, and I also have JMRI (other software that's freely available although not very intuitive) which also lets you control them. (It also does a lot of other things.) Further down the line I'll get a physical controller of some kind. Oh, I also have the Z21 phone app. There are others apps too.

 

Lastly, my DCC sound fitted loco (Farish 101) runs with sound on DC. You don't get all of the sounds, and you can't press a certain button to get a certain sound, but you do get a pretty good rendition of a loco making general loco noises as it goes around the track.

 

And yes, don't run analogue locos on DCC powered track.

 

This wiki is also worth a read: https://dccwiki.com/

 

 

[s182ggu]

Hi Monte

 

Whilst you will no doubt get flooded with information and well-meaning recommendations here, I would seriously recommend that you and / or your friend visit either a retailer selling DCC systems or a model railway club that has a DCC layout. I appreciate that there may not be many of these close to your location!

 

At either of these you will get the opportunity to see and 'play' with DCC and 'learn' the system first hand. I remember when I first started experimenting with DCC, I read dozens of articles and informative web sites but it was only when I visited a local club and got a 'hands on' introduction to how it works and to it's capabilities did I start to more fully understand what it was capable of. This was a few years back and DCC is still advancing and I'm still learning!!

 

 

 

[Monte]

Firstly thank you guys for the above info, very helpful, as has been mentioned there are clearly lots of options! One clarification please, am I correct in assuming then that for a DCC ready loco, not only can you buy  decoders to then run your loco on with a DCC controller, but you can only buy a sound fitted decoder too? If so do you then have to buy the actual sound program and then load it onto your controller - like you would when you buy new software for your PC?

 

Monte

 

PS Thanks Graham, you are correct about me not having any model railway clubs nearby, Glasgow will be the nearest which is about 120 miles away! My friend lives in Wigan so he should have a better chance of finding a club to go to!

[njee20]

Whilst you can buy 'blank' sound decoders it would be a curious thing to do for 99% of users. There are a handful of free projects out there from the likes of ESU if you have the requisite hardware to flash the decoder, but generally the sound providers (LegoManBiffo, YouChoos, Digitrains etc) will sell you a decoder pre-loaded with a sound file of your choosing. You plug in your decoder, stick the loco on the track and it makes chuffing/brmming/whirring noises as appropriate.

 

In effect the controller simply sends 'commands' to the decoder, so you have a button for F2, and that makes a horn noise. There is no software installation per se.

[SteveM666]

Have a look at Hornby’s HM7K system - once you have a decoder and a compatible power supply everything else, controller (app) and sound files, is free.

[n9]

I think we're forgetting that it's not enough to have a sound decoder fitted to a loco for it to make sound. It will also need a speaker, and that speaker will need to be wired in.

 

So, if buying a new loco, and the manufacturer says it's DCC Reaady and it has a speaker already fitted, then yes, you can just buy the (compatible) sound decoder with your choice of sound and plug it into the loco. Otherwise you'll need to be prepared to do some work.

[JimFin]

Just to add one point to the above, do NOT ever run any DCC loco on an analogue layout that is fitted with a Relco/Gaugemaster or similar hi frequency rail cleaner - it will fry the decoder.

[WIMorrison]

18 hours ago, njee20 said:

There are a handful of free projects out there from the likes of ESU

 

Zimo also has a large library of free sounds which are really easy to install - all you need is a Z21, and lots of people have that 😉. Even the coded versions are not expensive with most being around €20. Unusually though, there are no free sounds for UK locos unlike most other countries, and only one that can be downloaded and installed yourself. I think that says something about the UK market, rather than anything else.

[Legend]

This is a complicated subject and there is no such thing as a daft question .

 

My view as a DC analogue man is this -  DCCers please correct if I'm wrong 

 

Certain DCC Sound fitted locomotives will run on DC Analogue and give off sounds . You can't control this , whistles , flange squeel etc because you are not DCC and do not have access to F5, F6 etc . But I believe the basics are there, turn the controller knob and sounds will come on , the loco may remain stationary until the knob is turned further before moving off . I believe that Bachmann and Accurascale locos will do this . I am not sure if other manufacturers will .

 

A possibility is to use the new Hornby HM7000 system, there is a separate thread here on that . By buying a dedicated DC power source and getting one of their sound chips , you can get Sound relatively inexpensively . However you need to have a compatible phone or tablet because this becomes your controller . You cannot control your other Analogue locos using this system unless they have a decoder fitted .  However the power source is relatively in expensive and you could just connect it when you want to run your sound loco and disconnect when running your normal analogue trains, making sure they are properly isolated when running the sound loco eg parked up in a siding . This way avoids you having to fit decoders in all existing analogue models 

 

I think these are the two basic ways of getting sound on an otherwise analogue layout , but as I have said I have no experience of this . I have fancied getting a sound fitted accurascale Deltic , but at £250 a go its a bit of an expense if it doesn't work or running compromised . I may try the HM7000 route instead .  I have lots of analogue locos , some dating from the 60s , which I do still run  which is why full DCC not an option for me 

 

Glenborrodale , I can see your problem in accessibility to model shops !  If you are in the central belt any time probably Rainbow Railways in Linlithgow would be your best bet for over the counter advice .  

[n9]

I don't know, I think it's mostly complicated by the jargon used, as well as those terms being bandied about as if there is instant common knowledge of them.

 

I was completely new to DCC a year ago (along with most of the last several decades of the hobby.) and to me it seems no more complicated than using a (showing my age) VCR. You have a VCR (loco) that takes either Betamax or VHS tape (compatible decoder.)

 

You buy the right tape and put it in the VCR. If your tape contains sound as well as images, and your VCR is connected to speakers (telly or Hi-Fi,) you'll hear what's on the tape as well as see it (loco running with sound.) Not otherwise (loco running quiet.)

 

Your VCR is controlled by a remote control (your chosen handset.) If you push buttons on it, the VCR will do things.

 

 

Now granted, some may have found using VCRs a complete nightmare, and if you're one of those, best to pop down to a few shops that sell VCRs and glean some knowledge.

[roundhouse]

Just a few comments from me.

 

Whilst generally most decoders can be set to run on DC, some older decoders don't run on DC and one or two current ones (such as the mini 6 pins type that fit in the Bachmann quarry hunslets) won't either.

 

The Hornby  HM - 7000 TXC sound decoders are currently not recommended for running on DC but there is an ability to switch them from DCC to DC.

 

Best to check with the retailer when buying decoders and any secondhand locos fitted with decoders its best to ask before buying but don't bank on that being 100% correct.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by roundhouse

[Legend]

51 minutes ago, roundhouse said:

Just a few comments from me.

 

Whilst generally most decoders can be set to run on DC, some older decoders don't run on DC and one or two current ones (such as the mini 6 pins type that fit in the Bachmann quarry hunslets) won't either.

 

The Hornby  HM - 7000 TXC sound decoders are currently not recommended for running on DC but there is an ability to switch them from DCC to DC.

 

Best to check with the retailer when buying decoders and any secondhand locos fitted with decoders its best to ask before buying but don't bank on that being 100% correct.

 

 

 

I think when they say not recommended for running on DC they mean using existing controllers (my original idea was to turn analogue controllers to max and use phone to control loco) but if you use their dedicated DC supply , which is shown in their catalogue , then you can run on DC .    It is a minefield !

[Monte]

Belated thanks again guys for your further info, rather a lot to get your head round! I think I will look into the idea of using sound fitted locos on analogue and see what my friend then thinks!

Thank you again,

Monte

 

[RAF96]

It is not recommended to run any decoder on DC for obvious reasons, one being poor control (another is usually no sound capability). The reason there is poor control (apart from likely spiky dc controller output - another reason ), is the decoder has a threshold voltage that it needs to boot up, then it has to decide if it is seeing dc or DCC or what, then switch to that mode. By that time you are likely at half throttle. Turn it down again and the decoder drops out.

The only reasonable use for powering a decoder under do control is for steady state running in purposes.

Note that controlling an HM7K under DC controller conditions is not the same as powering the track direct from a PSU which is a steady state voltage hence satisfactory, however this is not DC control mode.

 

[DaveArkley]

9 hours ago, RAF96 said:

It is not recommended to run any decoder on DC for obvious reasons, one being poor control (another is usually no sound capability). The reason there is poor control (apart from likely spiky dc controller output - another reason ), is the decoder has a threshold voltage that it needs to boot up, then it has to decide if it is seeing dc or DCC or what, then switch to that mode. By that time you are likely at half throttle. Turn it down again and the decoder drops out.

 

Been running my DCC fitted locos on analogue club layouts for years, never had any of these problems

 

Cheers

Dave