Hornby Tier System

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

For the record - a Mk1 all second [previously signalled as TSO , but SK would simply be an alternative interior moulding] and BG are promised for TT120 in Phases 3 + 4. Gresley BTK and CK are also promised . If you are prepared to tolerate the gangway mismatch (as the LMR, WR and ScR perforce had to in real life..) then LMS P3  all first and all third +BG should be available in TT120 in a few monthsa

 

You omit Hornby's substantial commitment to non-gangwayed stock - two ranges of LNER non-gangwayed coaches, an LMS P3 non-gangwayed range (that sold very badly despite being perfectly good models) and GW Collett non-gangway stock (which sold only a little better ). The 58' Maunsell rebuilds did ok.. Not to mention the generic 4 and 6 wheelers

 

Also the Coronation and Coronation Scot sets - those vehicles were used in general service post war...

 

However Hornby seem to have got their fingers a little burnt on coaching stock in recent years, and after a huge investment over the last 15 years I can see investment in new tooling in this area being reined right back. The trouble with the LMS CK is that the 60' underframe was used for little else, which bumps up your tooling cost. Apart from a couple of new Dean clerestories I can't see many 4mm opportunities

 

And new-tooled coaches in OO are now coming out around the £80 mark . This is one area where I think Hornby will now sit tight and simply run their existing 4mm scale tooling at the £60-£65 mark for the foreseeable future. In the last 15 years they've been the market leader in new coach tooling but I think that's over. Bachmann have been fairly quiet on this front for quite a while

 

It is quite hard to find a potential OO coach subject that while be any where near as good a prospect for investment as that Mk1 all sdecond in TT:120....

I stuck to gangwayed stock deliberately. My post was getting rather long as it was!

 

The problem with the LMS P3 CK is that, whilst it needs a dedicated underframe that, as you say, offers only limited opportunity for further exploitation, it requires a fair bit of effort to find a train formation that didn't include at least one.  Even Airfix thought it necessary four decades ago!

 

I know it's often said that many people don't know or care about anything but locos and treat coaches and wagons as mobile scenery, but I've always considered that a majority do. Had Hornby not thought it worthwhile catering for us, most of the coaches they have released over the past twenty years wouldn't exist. 

 

I'd not say that Bachmann have been anything like inactive during Hornby's run of producing "proper" coaches, either, but a new range of coaches is not something they have the capacity to bang out every couple of years.

 

Given that Bachmann have a reputation for a bias toward "modern image", three steam-era ranges in a decade or so, the LMR Portholes, new-tool Thompsons and, most recently the new-tool Bulleids aren't to be sniffed at; and they did include a 60' LMS underframe! 

 

Where I do tend to agree, is that I think Hornby will (for the immediate future) concentrate any introduction of new OO coaches on filling gaps in existing ranges on existing underframes. I'd love to be proved wrong by them replacing their Gresley corridor range, but if they delay that much longer somebody else surely will.

 

Hornby's immediate commercial priority has to be keeping new TT-120 product arriving regularly enough to keep those already "in" spending, and to maintain confidence in their long term commitment to the scale's future among the "interested-but-yet-to-be-convinced" group they also want/need to get on board.   

 

John

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

30 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Indeed, but an even more limited selection operationally! Won't stop me buying the Coronation set.

 

A better choice from among the end vestibule Gresley designs - especially as it has now been demonstrated that an accurate side profile is possible -  would be 'welcome'. But, the old 'Kirks' soldier on looking properly dated and slightly run down, alongside Bachmann's shiny mk 1 and (recent very fine) Thompson stock.

 

I think the only thing that made Hornby Gresley corridors with an accurate side profile "impossible" in the first place, was that somewhere in the design process, somebody goofed and made the underframe too wide... 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

You would hope so! But this is Hornby :-)

Indeed so - but now under new management which at least seems to have a better marketing structure which ought to make a difference.

 

4 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Olympics, tiers, Titfield Thunderbolt, steampunk, etc

 

 Hornby's board of directors must be rather naïve and easy to convince

And that's the second part of getting marketing right - among other things.   Very much showing the need for getting the right people in the right jobs.  But some of what you list almost certainly never went anywhere near more than a couple of Directors (at the most).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think the only thing that made Hornby Gresley corridors with an accurate side profile "impossible" in the first place, was that somewhere in the design process, somebody goofed and made the underframe too wide... 

We will only know for sure if someone on the design team emerges from the shadows to tell. The 'necessary to ensure release of the panelled sides from the mould tools' was Hornby's story at the time as I recollect it; but sounded pretty thin then. There were further inaccuracies too; wrongly positioned mid panel beading in the bottom body side panels, and incorrectly oriented grain on the teak liveried model's doors the most obvious.

 

With my widely exercised problem analysis hat on, my suspicion is prototype data obtained by one team, model tooling developed by another. That's a prime recipe  for errors to creep in, from many possible causes; misinterpretation of another's data is always a vulnerability.

[Widnes Model Centre]

We have today received notification that the Tier System has indeed gone. Also we shall see the return of Business Development Managers. We welcome this.
A great pity that it was introduced in the first place.

Railway modellers et al should now be able to place orders with their preferred retailer with no preferential treatment for any retailer. 
This will presumably be in place for the New Announcements in January 2024.

 

 

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

We have today received notification that the Tier System has indeed gone. Also we shall see the return of Business Development Managers. We welcome this.
A great pity that it was introduced in the first place.

Railway modellers et al should now be able to place orders with their preferred retailer with no preferential treatment for any retailer. 
This will presumably be in place for the New Announcements in January 2024.

 

 

It was always a barmy system . You would have been hard put to come up with a system that hacked off both the enthusiast and retailer , but they managed it. Glad the new  broom is apparently sweeping clean 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Legend said:

It was always a barmy system . You would have been hard put to come up with a system that hacked off both the enthusiast and retailer , but they managed it. Glad the new  broom is apparently sweeping clean 

Definitely a barmy system but it was a knee jerk answer (of a not ideal sort) to a problem someone in the company brought upon his employer's business for all the wrong reasons.

 

Hwever theh switch to spread announcements across the year will hopefully allow much better control of retailer ordering and allocation of stock by hopefully avoiding overselling.  But the only way retailers will be certain of getting what the order will be if either Hornby hold additional stock (a function presumably of Brand Managers?).  Or  - maybe only for certain things - factory orders will be placed after Hornby receive retailer orders?

 

As yet we don't know how it will work but abolishing tiers is a great step in the right direction.ea

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely a barmy system but it was a knee jerk answer (of a not ideal sort) to a problem someone in the company brought upon his employer's business for all the wrong reasons.

 

Hwever theh switch to spread announcements across the year will hopefully allow much better control of retailer ordering and allocation of stock by hopefully avoiding overselling.  But the only way retailers will be certain of getting what the order will be if either Hornby hold additional stock (a function presumably of Brand Managers?).  Or  - maybe only for certain things - factory orders will be placed after Hornby receive retailer orders?

 

As yet we don't know how it will work but abolishing tiers is a great step in the right direction.ea

Agreed. The root of the problem , which tiering was an attempt at solving, is Hornby having to keep quiet about what they intend to make until the catalogue is published. 

 

In order to have any hope at all of delivering new stuff within the currency of the catalogue, Hornby had to book production slots and decide quantities before canvassing the dealer network for orders. 

 

Mismatches between supply and demand were thus inevitable, and it will take more than just abolishing tiering to eradicate those in future.

 

John

Edited December 22, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In order to have any hope at all of delivering new stuff within the currency of the catalogue, Hornby had to book production slots and decide quantities before canvassing the dealer network for orders. 

 

Mismatches between supply and demand were thus inevitable, and it will take more than just abolishing tiering to eradicate those in future.

From the mid-'80s, BR had a Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook, which ascribed values to different aspects of rebuilding or otherwise upgrading passenger station facilities. It was accepted by the Department, on behalf of HM Treasury, in supporting investment proposals.

 

Clearly Hornby need the same thing. So for example offering a loco that bears GWR insignia might be ascribed one value, an LNER loco a different value. Era, years in service, number in class, bling - an A4 would have a higher value than an 0-6-0 - all that sort of thing. Add-in price, complexity of design, existing products that would enhance its appeal, risk of a competing product etc, and you might be able to assess sales potential, which would itself perhaps offer an order of priority in a programme. 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed. The root of the problem , which tiering was an attempt at solving, is Hornby having to keep quiet about what they intend to make until the catalogue is published. 

 

In order to have any hope at all of delivering new stuff within the currency of the catalogue, Hornby had to book production slots and decide quantities before canvassing the dealer network for orders. 

 

Mismatches between supply and demand were thus inevitable, and it will take more than just abolishing tiering to eradicate those in future.

 

John

 

Perhaps,

 

The catalog is still relevent imo. Its not just a glossy brochure of whats new, its a guidebook to help people build a layout based on the routine… railroad, wagons, coaches, track, scenery etc…

 

What maybe better is a panini style catalog… a core release in Jan of all the main range bread and butter, but with blanked inserts for quarterly releases to be inserted during the year… it could attract club membership as a means to getting those quarterly inserts and make it “collectible” in the “full book” sense by year end… that removes the “start of year” big bang /order book  guess work, but still allow a full catalog by year end.

 

If you look at Hornby since c2017.. most announcements are made at a very early stage, and take years to arrive, this isnt materially different to other players… very few actually announce something when its already on the boat.

 

 

 

 

[Nova Scotian]

On 12/12/2023 at 03:22, BachelorBoy said:

Olympics, tiers, Titfield Thunderbolt, steampunk, etc

 

 Hornby's board of directors must be rather naïve and easy to convince

If the board of directors are at the individual product level for approval then management + board is a complete mess. (eg. Titfield)

 

Additionally, the olympic range was over a decade ago. With various term limits, changes etc I doubt much of the board from back then are on the board today.

 

I did not like steampunk - but you can see what they tried to do with it, all the chassis already exist, the tooling changes were minimal. The "deals" have been no better than anywhere else they're currently blowing out the 0-4-0s for thirty quid. Win or loss, steampunk was probably a rounding error on an income statement. More serious to me was what they did to the Basset-Lowke name and the inability to determine how to have a real brand strategy.

 

Happy for tiers to be gone - also hoping to see less of the silly for popular product launches - far too many times you'd see them sell out on pre-orders online + retailers, then a retailer would find themselves shorted (with an angry customer) and miraculously a handful of stock would turn up online again. That extra 30%-40% margin is extremely tempting.

[Pmorgancym]

5 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

If the board of directors are at the individual product level for approval then management + board is a complete mess. (eg. Titfield)

 

Additionally, the olympic range was over a decade ago. With various term limits, changes etc I doubt much of the board from back then are on the board today.

 

I did not like steampunk - but you can see what they tried to do with it, all the chassis already exist, the tooling changes were minimal. The "deals" have been no better than anywhere else they're currently blowing out the 0-4-0s for thirty quid. Win or loss, steampunk was probably a rounding error on an income statement. More serious to me was what they did to the Basset-Lowke name and the inability to determine how to have a real brand strategy.

 

Happy for tiers to be gone - also hoping to see less of the silly for popular product launches - far too many times you'd see them sell out on pre-orders online + retailers, then a retailer would find themselves shorted (with an angry customer) and miraculously a handful of stock would turn up online again. That extra 30%-40% margin is extremely tempting.

Steam punk, done more imaginatively could have worked.  

[Pmorgancym]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Perhaps,

 

The catalog is still relevent imo. Its not just a glossy brochure of whats new, its a guidebook to help people build a layout based on the routine… railroad, wagons, coaches, track, scenery etc…

 

What maybe better is a panini style catalog… a core release in Jan of all the main range bread and butter, but with blanked inserts for quarterly releases to be inserted during the year… it could attract club membership as a means to getting those quarterly inserts and make it “collectible” in the “full book” sense by year end… that removes the “start of year” big bang /order book  guess work, but still allow a full catalog by year end.

 

If you look at Hornby since c2017.. most announcements are made at a very early stage, and take years to arrive, this isnt materially different to other players… very few actually announce something when its already on the boat.

 

 

 

 

That seems to have changed recently, Hornby deem.to annouce a lot of stuff at the drawing stage.  Most other manufactures seem.to announce at the engineering prototype 

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Perhaps,

 

The catalog is still relevent imo. Its not just a glossy brochure of whats new, its a guidebook to help people build a layout based on the routine… railroad, wagons, coaches, track, scenery etc…

 

What maybe better is a panini style catalog… a core release in Jan of all the main range bread and butter, but with blanked inserts for quarterly releases to be inserted during the year… it could attract club membership as a means to getting those quarterly inserts and make it “collectible” in the “full book” sense by year end… that removes the “start of year” big bang /order book  guess work, but still allow a full catalog by year end.

 

If you look at Hornby since c2017.. most announcements are made at a very early stage, and take years to arrive, this isnt materially different to other players… very few actually announce something when its already on the boat.

 

 

 

 

 

There's a simple and practical way to maintain the issue of a collectible document whilst helping to eradicate the problems Hornby has with deciding production batch sizes. 

 

Issue it eleven months later and repurpose it as a Yearbook, or Christmas Annual, call it what you will. All the other features you mention would be unaffected. Hornby can then canvass dealers for orders in plenty of time to plan production more effectively. They can cease to worry about cats getting out of bags, because the bag will no longer have a date on it! 

 

That would transform the "catalogue" portion into a record (a celebration, even) of what has actually been delivered through the year rather than a wish list of what might arrive next year or the year after; which it has been for far too long.

 

Real models could be pictured instead of amateurish side-on mock-ups that frankly ceased to represent good examples of what can be done with photoshop more than a decade ago. In short, it would become an accurate and relevant work of reference for future collectors. 

 

Nobody who wishes to know about the progress of any new item they desire, what it might finally look like, or when they'll be able to buy it, will be any the wiser from consulting the catalogue as it currently exists.

 

That's what the website is for. 

 

John

Edited December 23, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Perhaps,

 

The catalog is still relevent imo. Its not just a glossy brochure of whats new, its a guidebook to help people build a layout based on the routine… railroad, wagons, coaches, track, scenery etc…

 

What maybe better is a panini style catalog… a core release in Jan of all the main range bread and butter, but with blanked inserts for quarterly releases to be inserted during the year… it could attract club membership as a means to getting those quarterly inserts and make it “collectible” in the “full book” sense by year end… that removes the “start of year” big bang /order book  guess work, but still allow a full catalog by year end.

 

If you look at Hornby since c2017.. most announcements are made at a very early stage, and take years to arrive, this isnt materially different to other players… very few actually announce something when its already on the boat.

 

 

 

 

As I understand things there will be changes to the catalogue as well as announcement dates.  Quite how the catalogue will work i don't know - maybe like Bachmann, maybe a summary of what is and definitely will be available in the catalogue's year, maybe an addition of a lot more 'Book Of Trains' type stuff?   We'll know when it appears - and my understanding from what I was told some time back is that it will appear.

[Pmorgancym]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

There's a simple and practical way to maintain the issue of a collectible document whilst helping to eradicate the problems Hornby has with deciding production batch sizes. 

 

Issue it eleven months later and repurpose it as a Yearbook, or Christmas Annual, call it what you will. All the other features you mention would be unaffected. Hornby can then canvass dealers for orders in plenty of time to plan production more effectively. They can cease to worry about cats getting out of bags, because the bag will no longer have a date on it! 

 

That would transform the "catalogue" portion into a record (a celebration, even) of what has actually been delivered through the year rather than a wish list of what might arrive next year or the year after; which it has been for far too long.

 

Real models could be pictured instead of amateurish side-on mock-ups that frankly ceased to represent good examples of what can be done with photoshop more than a decade ago. In short, it would become an accurate and relevant work of reference for future collectors. 

 

Nobody who wishes to know about the progress of any new item they desire, what it might finally look like, or when they'll be able to buy it, will be any the wiser from consulting the catalogue as it currently exists.

 

That's what the website is for. 

 

John

That might work and you coukd have a lot of fun with it.  With hints of next year in the'cameo' pics.

[BachelorBoy]

21 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

There's a simple and practical way to maintain the issue of a collectible document whilst helping to eradicate the problems Hornby has with deciding production batch sizes. 

 

Issue it eleven months later and repurpose it as a Yearbook, or Christmas Annual, call it what you will.

 

I like the idea, but...  it sounds like just another distraction for Hornby managers who should really be concentrating on the models/customers/distributors

 

If the catalogue ain't working, break it now, and don't repurpose.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by BachelorBoy
models/customers/distributors

[BachelorBoy]

On 23/12/2023 at 09:23, Nova Scotian said:

If the board of directors are at the individual product level for approval then management + board is a complete mess. (eg. Titfield)

 

Additionally, the olympic range was over a decade ago. With various term limits, changes etc I doubt much of the board from back then are on the board today.

 

 

Maybe the people are different, but the culture resists change.

 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

I like the idea, but...  it sounds like just another distraction for Hornby managers who should really be concentrating on the models/customers/distributors

 

If the catalogue ain't working, break it now, and don't repurpose.

 

 

 

 

 

My idea is just to make the document retrospective, so it reflects reality rather than aspiration. There's no reason It's production should require any more staff input than the existing catalogue. 

I consider it to be the catalogue's present position in Hornby's business sequence that causes problems for them, their dealers, and we end-customers, not it's existence.

 

Many people like to collect the annual catalogue and, judging from the cover price, it probably represents a significant chunk of Hornby's revenue stream.

 

Adopting my suggestions should restore a relevance to the annual "catalogue", which (IMHO) it  has lost in recent times, and enhance Hornby's business model in general.

 

A year-end "review" volume would provide a definitive record of "what and when" for collectors, current and future. For those wedded to collecting an annual printed "Hornby-Fest", there's no reason why its overall style would need to change.

 

Personally, though, I'd like to see something more attractive replace those little "Cigarette Card" images Photoshopped from pictures of older versions of current models...

 

John

Edited December 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Roddy Angus]

What would be the purpose of a retrospective catalogue which tells you what was produced and may now be sold out?  It would be as useless as the Bachmann catalogue, which effectively highlights slow moving models.

 

Roddy

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, Roddy Angus said:

What would be the purpose of a retrospective catalogue which tells you what was produced and may now be sold out?  It would be as useless as the Bachmann catalogue, which effectively highlights slow moving models.

 

Roddy

It would be for collectors I would say, I don't see it as any more useless than the current book of proposed  digital renders.

[Roddy Angus]

5 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

It would be for collectors I would say, I don't see it as any more useless than the current book of proposed  digital renders.

But at least the "proposed digital renders" tell you what is to come and allows you to compare it to other manufacturers plans.

 

Roddy

[Roddy Angus]

Just to add, I don't necessarily want a catalogue, a leaflet setting out proposed models would meet my desires.

 

Roddy

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

It would be for collectors I would say, I don't see it as any more useless than the current book of proposed  digital renders.

Agreed. In this day and age, printed catalogues are pretty much redundant unless for product ranges that remain consistently available. Even then, a website is far easier/quicker to search.

 

The likes of Screwfix seem to have abandoned the idea and, while I haven't been in an Argos store since our local one closed, I'd think they probably have too.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

I like the idea, but...  it sounds like just another distraction for Hornby managers who should really be concentrating on the models/customers/distributors

 

If the catalogue ain't working, break it now, and don't repurpose.

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently the catalogue is very popular and that would seem to have explained its continued existence.  But the most recent issues have been verging on works of fiction for much of their content.  So if it sells, if it is popular, and if it creates net revenue. I think retaining it in a revamped form makes commercial sense.

 

 Where responsibility for it will lie I don't know but I'd hardly expect it to be with all of the different people concentrating on the various - disparate - issues you mentioned.