Hornby Tier System

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

I don't remember the froth for this model as it dates from Hornby's design clever era and wasn't the build quality not great here. Never reached the potential it justified.

Subsequent runs of the 8-coupled tanks were sorted out. My 72xx has actual bearings..... 

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Plenty of people commenting in this section are openly admitting they don't buy Hornby. So why comment at all....

 

Jason

You miss the point Jason. I want to buy Hornby, but I want to buy from a company that behaves ethically. In my opinion Hornby were not that company. 
 

It seems the new management are taking steps to remedy past failings and I will monitor that situation and comment as I see fit, so please avoid acting as a moderator…
 

Roy

[adb968008]

Part of the problem is the industry has moved on.

What was satisfactory 10 years ago, isnt today.

Simply matching rrp to inflation on a tooling made 20 years ago, bearing a different number wont cut it in a market where a new tooling is advertised nearly every month.

 

They have attempted with a freak show range of prototypes the last few years but imo this isnt a long term sustainable model… they will run out of freaks and run out of show.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

51 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

They have attempted with a freak show range of prototypes the last few years but imo this isnt a long term sustainable model… they will run out of freaks and run out

of show.

 

 

Steampunk is dead? 

Perhaps it should have been strangled at birth.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Michael Hodgson

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

They have attempted with a freak show range of prototypes the last few years but imo this isnt a long term sustainable model… they will run out of freaks and run out of show.

 

 

 

That is a problem for the whole OO RTR sector . Not just (or even mainly) Hornby 

 

Hornby have at least got their freaks away. W1 sold (it was an alternative to your 4th A4..) . So did Tornado and DoG . The APT seems to have sold , since it went to a second run. The Adams Radial and Class 71 were duplicated freaks and did badly. Rocket has sold and Lion /Tiger does not appear to have failed

 

But the Worsborough Garrett, Big Bertha, 4DD sets, the Fell, the Bulleid/Raworth "Boosters", the Class 89 Badger, Met Number 1, GT3, Jones Goods  - these are not Hornby ventures

 

When the German equivalents of these kind of things started to appear in HO , along with the "museum quality" model, widespread duplication and eye-watering prices, it turned out to be a signal that the market was saturated. Shortly after that the sky fell in on the Continental HO RTR manufacturers with sales falling by about 25% , widespread administration and takeovers/buy-outs . New budget manufacturers like Piko were the only companies to prosper in that market.

 

I do wonder if the great 25 year boom in new tooled RTR OO is about to hit the buffers. We seem almost to have run out of sensible subjects...

 

[Hroth]

15 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

I do wonder if the great 25 year boom in new tooled RTR OO is about to hit the buffers. We seem almost to have run out of sensible subjects...

 

 

Which could put the venture into TT:120 into perspective, it's Plan B, just in case their core OO market contracts.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

18 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Which could put the venture into TT:120 into perspective, it's Plan B, just in case their core OO market contracts.

 

On the grounds that a contracting OO market looks like a good result if compared to a complete wipeout if TT120 dies the death?

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I do wonder if the great 25 year boom in new tooled RTR OO is about to hit the buffers. We seem almost to have run out of sensible subjects...

 

Manufacturing technology leaps ahead so that models can be more and more accurate and the market expects added features like sound and firebox glow, so opportunities open up all the time to produce improved versions of old familiar subjects. Just look at Accurascale's recent Pannier announcement for example.

 

There's also increasing interest in the pre-grouping era.

 

So it seems foolhardy to say that OO RTR has run out of sensible subjects.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Harlequin
Spelling

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

That is a problem for the whole OO RTR sector . Not just (or even mainly) Hornby 

 

Hornby have at least got their freaks away. W1 sold (it was an alternative to your 4th A4..) . So did Tornado and DoG . The APT seems to have sold , since it went to a second run. The Adams Radial and Class 71 were duplicated freaks and did badly. Rocket has sold and Lion /Tiger does not appear to have failed

 

But the Worsborough Garrett, Big Bertha, 4DD sets, the Fell, the Bulleid/Raworth "Boosters", the Class 89 Badger, Met Number 1, GT3, Jones Goods  - these are not Hornby ventures

 

When the German equivalents of these kind of things started to appear in HO , along with the "museum quality" model, widespread duplication and eye-watering prices, it turned out to be a signal that the market was saturated. Shortly after that the sky fell in on the Continental HO RTR manufacturers with sales falling by about 25% , widespread administration and takeovers/buy-outs . New budget manufacturers like Piko were the only companies to prosper in that market.

 

I do wonder if the great 25 year boom in new tooled RTR OO is about to hit the buffers. We seem almost to have run out of sensible subjects...

 

There"s plenty of room for incorporating the latest gimmickry advances into many existing Hornby models without a full retool. 

 

What's recently been done to updare the original WC model will presumably feature in future re-runs of everything else.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

On the grounds that a contracting OO market looks like a good result if compared to a complete wipeout if TT120 dies the death?

 

At this point , TT:120 looks reasonably successful . They can't keep sufficient stock in the warehouse.

 

\We will only know whether the present crop of announcements have been reasonable commercial successes in 2-3 years time . If they haven't been subject to clearance/firesale and keep selling, then they must have done ok. Its the stuff that visibly won't shift that's the issue.. People declaring that an announcement of a new model demonstrates that it will be a commercial success are being rather naive. Inspection of the Hattons 66 thread (or to be very cruel , the DJM Class 71) will show 

 

But - what looks a better bet for tooling investment ? a Class 37, Class 47 and Class 66 in TT:120, where there will be no challenge for the foreseeable future , or Met 1 or a retool of Caley 123 or yet another OO 37?? There are already disturbing signs that the Bachmann 37 is strugglin g to sell, though I'm assured there are no problems with the AS 37 and every batch sells through

 

It is possible that TT:120 will prove a flash in the pan. Perhaps it is a bubble that will burst in a year or two., But thus far it's done a hell of a lot better commercially than anyone dared to suggest, and since it doesn't seem to have had much penetration in the established hobby those sales must have come largely from new entrants -a market that was confidently predicted to be impossible.

 

In the meantime I reckon its time to discard the belief that TT:120 is  obviously a crackers idea clearly doomed to  commercial failure . At this point the scenario whereby a moderately successful TT:120 has the rug pulled from under it in 5 years time by the collapse of Hornby Hobbies and the cessation of supply looks a lot more likely to me than the cenario where TT:120 fails ignominiously and burns Hornby...

 

Given the size of trhe tooling bank Hornby and others now have, it may well make better sense to run existing tooling in rotation rather than tool up new OO RTR

[Harlequin]

This topic was specifically about the tier system but, like every other thread with the word "Hornby" in it, it has descended into speculation about Hornby's status in general.

 

Boring and repetitive.

 

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

At this point , TT:120 looks reasonably successful . They can't keep sufficient stock in the warehouse.

 

\We will only know whether the present crop of announcements have been reasonable commercial successes in 2-3 years time . If they haven't been subject to clearance/firesale and keep selling, then they must have done ok. Its the stuff that visibly won't shift that's the issue.. People declaring that an announcement of a new model demonstrates that it will be a commercial success are being rather naive. Inspection of the Hattons 66 thread (or to be very cruel , the DJM Class 71) will show 

 

But - what looks a better bet for tooling investment ? a Class 37, Class 47 and Class 66 in TT:120, where there will be no challenge for the foreseeable future , or Met 1 or a retool of Caley 123 or yet another OO 37?? There are already disturbing signs that the Bachmann 37 is strugglin g to sell, though I'm assured there are no problems with the AS 37 and every batch sells through

 

It is possible that TT:120 will prove a flash in the pan. Perhaps it is a bubble that will burst in a year or two., But thus far it's done a hell of a lot better commercially than anyone dared to suggest, and since it doesn't seem to have had much penetration in the established hobby those sales must have come largely from new entrants -a market that was confidently predicted to be impossible.

 

In the meantime I reckon its time to discard the belief that TT:120 is  obviously a crackers idea clearly doomed to  commercial failure . At this point the scenario whereby a moderately successful TT:120 has the rug pulled from under it in 5 years time by the collapse of Hornby Hobbies and the cessation of supply looks a lot more likely to me than the cenario where TT:120 fails ignominiously and burns Hornby...

 

Given the size of trhe tooling bank Hornby and others now have, it may well make better sense to run existing tooling in rotation rather than tool up new OO RTR

 

Hornby's long-standing handicap has been an inability to properly ascertain likely levels of demand for new models, and therefore appropriate batch sizes. An unholy procession of Fire Sales on the one hand and eBay profiteering on the other have been the inevitable result. 

 

The Tier system was a crude sticking plaster intended to treat the symptoms not the disease, and failed on more than one level. It's arguable that one side-effect has been to enable the likes of Accurascale and Rapido (and a resurgent Dapol) to gain market share more quickly than would have otherwise been the case.

 

Now Tiering has been discontinued, it looks like Hornby at last intend to tackle the root of the issue. Initial signs are positive, and we should get a better idea of how they intend to overhaul their business model over the coming weeks and months. I sincerely hope the reforms will go deep enough to work.

 

John

Edited December 29, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[BachelorBoy]

6 hours ago, Harlequin said:

This topic was specifically about the tier system but, like every other thread with the word "Hornby" in it, it has descended into speculation about Hornby's status in general.

 

Boring and repetitive.

 

Personally I find Hornby's problems fascinating in a car crash way. 

 

And also I am annoyed, and even a bit offended, at Hornby's failures. 

 

FOR GOODNESS SAKE Hornby GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER !!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[GWR-fan]

No matter who is at the wheel,  one thing is certain and that is Hornby will find a way to shoot an own goal, every time.  

[BachelorBoy]

On 27/12/2023 at 18:54, phil gollin said:

Hornby has lost its way, both in general and, specifically, regarding the "Southern".  Someone seems to have convinced them that there are no, or limited, numbers of "Southern" subjects left to be done, whereas there are many, many, whether pre-grouping, grouping, steam BR or contemporary  

 

.

 

[BachelorBoy]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

In the meantime I reckon its time to discard the belief that TT:120 is  obviously a crackers idea clearly doomed to  commercial failure . At this point the scenario whereby a moderately successful TT:120 has the rug pulled from under it in 5 years time by the collapse of Hornby Hobbies and the cessation of supply looks a lot more likely to me than the cenario where TT:120 fails ignominiously and burns Hornby...

 

 

Much as consumers rebought all the music they had on LPs in CD form?

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

13 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

That is a problem for the whole OO RTR sector . Not just (or even mainly) Hornby 

 

....

 

I do wonder if the great 25 year boom in new tooled RTR OO is about to hit the buffers. We seem almost to have run out of sensible subjects...

 

 

Just wait until the collectors of never-been-opened-mint-condition models start to downsize to move into elderly homes, and the market is flooded....

 

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

No matter who is at the wheel,  one thing is certain and that is Hornby will find a way to shoot an own goal, every time.  

 

Oh for pity's sake; give it a rest, at least for a while. The new management team are obviously working to improve matters on several fronts with some more realism so just give them a chance.

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Personally I find Hornby's problems fascinating in a car crash way. 

 

And also I am annoyed, and even a bit offended, at Hornby's failures. 

 

FOR GOODNESS SAKE Hornby GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER !!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

No matter who is at the wheel,  one thing is certain and that is Hornby will find a way to shoot an own goal, every time.  

 

I agree it's interesting but do we have to go over the same ground ad nauseum? Most of the "Hornby froth" is based on what they have done in the past, but we know that their management has changed and they are starting to do things differently!

 

Now is surely the time to wait to see what they do next and judge them on future actions.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Harlequin

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

Personally I find Hornby's problems fascinating in a car crash way. 

 

And that's the problem. Loads of people with no skin in the game enjoying predicting the demise of Hornby. 

 

8 hours ago, Ravenser said:

At this point the scenario whereby a moderately successful TT:120 has the rug pulled from under it in 5 years time by the collapse of Hornby Hobbies and the cessation of supply looks a lot more likely to me than the cenario where TT:120 fails ignominiously and burns Hornby...

 

Imagine, if you can, being a real person who works for Hornby reading gleeful predictions of their demise. Predictions based on very little actual information. How would you feel? 

 

5 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

I agree it's interesting but do we have to go over the same ground ad nauseum? Especially when most of that froth is based on what Hornby have done in the past, when we know that their management has changed and they are starting to do things differently!

 

Now is surely the time to wait to see what they do and judge them on future actions.

 

 

Spot on. Alone on this thread, I have actually sat down in a room and talked to the new management. There will be an interview in an upcoming BRM. As you've already seen, the direction is changing, mainly the emphasis on certain areas, but that's based on a "big picture" approach to the business, which I think they have the background and experience to pull off. Obviously this won't suit anyone who cares nothing beyond demanding an obscure SR shunter, but it’s what the business needs. 

 

Hornby's demise has been predicted on here many times. And they are still trading. 

[Pint of Adnams]

15 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Steampunk is dead? 

Perhaps it should have been strangled at birth.

 

Agreed - it was simply a freak outcome of a reality TV show purporting to show railway modelling but was more of a scrap in the yard challenge.

[Phil Parker]

17 minutes ago, Pint of Adnams said:

 

Agreed - it was simply a freak outcome of a reality TV show purporting to show railway modelling but was more of a scrap in the yard challenge.

 

No it wasn't. It came about because the Steampunk market is massive, ask any preserved line who hold a Steampunk weekend. An opportunity was spotted and cheaply tried. Would things have been different if Covid hadn't stopped plans to go to those weekends with the product?  Maybe. But it's not a bad idea to stick to the facts. 

[chuffinghell]

I can see this topic ending in tiers

 

 

Last ‘dad joke’ of the year, promise!………….Well this year at least 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Just wait until the collectors of never-been-opened-mint-condition models start to downsize to move into elderly homes, and the market is flooded....

 

 

Except that it's already happening, but it's a gradual process that the market so far seems able to handle.

 

[BachelorBoy]

40 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

No it wasn't. It came about because the Steampunk market is massive, ask any preserved line who hold a Steampunk weekend. An opportunity was spotted and cheaply tried. Would things have been different if Covid hadn't stopped plans to go to those weekends with the product?  Maybe. But it's not a bad idea to stick to the facts. 

 

I very much doubt it would have been successful.

 

The products were embarrassingly bad, according to my steam punk acquaintances.