Hornby Tier System

[Drifter]

Whisper it gently, but apparently the Hornby Tier System has been scrapped. 
Can anyone confirm or deny? Asking for a friend!

[Free At Last]

Your friend is Simon Kohler and I claim my £5.00.

[gwrrob]

The goodwill of the retailers will take a bit longer to restore.

[ColinB]

I assume new broom, so sweep away all the old practices. They also need to shift a lot of their stock.

[The Stationmaster]

But don't necessarily think it will mean an end - thus far - to the rationng of new issue hi-fi models.  As long as Hornby continue to place factory orders before they get retail orders there could well remain a difference between what they order from the factory and what they sell - unless their marketing is going to get much cleverer (I think it might stand a good chance of that from what I've heard)

 

But hopefully the new Sales Manager will be able to end the farce of over-selling when the retailer orders are taken.  And with some luck and some common sense ending the annual 'big bang' announcement and spreading announcement through the year will also help there by spreading the rush when orders are taken from retailers.

Edited December 9, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[ColinB]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But don't necessarily think it will mean an end - thus far - to the rationng of new issue hi-fi models.  As long as Hornby continue to place factory orders before they get retail orders there could well remain a difference between what they order from the factory and what they sell - unless their marketing is going to get much cleverer (I think it might stand a good chance of that from what I've heard)

 

But hopefully the new Sales Manager will be able to end the farce of over-selling when the retailer orders are taken.  And with some luck and some common sense ending the annual 'big bang' announcement and spreading announcement through the year will also help there by spreading the rush when orders are taken from retailers.

Unless Hornby can find some more obscure locos to model, then the tier system dies on its own. Everyone wanted a Hush Hush and a Turbomotive but most of the other models are still available. As the hobby increasingly appeals to the older generation and because they are probably the only ones that can afford them, then generally they already have most of Hornby's current range of locos although with different names. Their market is also being eroded away by better locos at cheaper prices. Price wise they only compete with Bachmann unless you include continental manufacturers. They waste too much money on obscure products, HM7000 was only ever going to work if you can fit it into other manufacturers locos and it needed to work properly from day 1, not 6 months later. Perhaps the dongle will work but then again it only works with their own product.

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, ColinB said:

Unless Hornby can find some more obscure locos to model, then the tier system dies on its own. Everyone wanted a Hush Hush and a Turbomotive but most of the other models are still available. As the hobby increasingly appeals to the older generation and because they are probably the only ones that can afford them, then generally they already have most of Hornby's current range of locos although with different names. Their market is also being eroded away by better locos at cheaper prices. Price wise they only compete with Bachmann unless you include continental manufacturers. They waste too much money on obscure products, HM7000 was only ever going to work if you can fit it into other manufacturers locos and it needed to work properly from day 1, not 6 months later. Perhaps the dongle will work but then again it only works with their own product.

 

Isn't that surely where the problem mostly arises anyway ? 

Hornby have traditionally gone for the "big wheeler" namers in terms of steam locos, which they know will hook most modellers / collectors.  I imagine there a very few like me who prefer the boring black "goods" engines, which Is why there isn't an "Austin 7" Fowler 0-8-0 or a humble little Midland 2F 0-6-0 / "Cauliflower".  

[ColinB]

44 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Isn't that surely where the problem mostly arises anyway ? 

Hornby have traditionally gone for the "big wheeler" namers in terms of steam locos, which they know will hook most modellers / collectors.  I imagine there a very few like me who prefer the boring black "goods" engines, which Is why there isn't an "Austin 7" Fowler 0-8-0 or a humble little Midland 2F 0-6-0 / "Cauliflower".  

I imagine these types would now be on their list to do or if not Hornby, one of the other Manufacturers. Rails seem to be doing well by doing special commissions of obscure locos. I must admit the ones I buy now are the more obscure ones like Rails do, I have more than enough of the Hornby usual types. I don't know what their new management will go for, I suspect low cost high profit, so minimum separately fitted parts.

[Right Away]

12 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Isn't that surely where the problem mostly arises anyway ? 

Hornby have traditionally gone for the "big wheeler" namers in terms of steam locos, which they know will hook most modellers / collectors.  I imagine there a very few like me who prefer the boring black "goods" engines, which Is why there isn't an "Austin 7" Fowler 0-8-0 or a humble little Midland 2F 0-6-0 / "Cauliflower".  

Hornby did more than dip their toes in the “boring” 0-6-0 goods market a few years back with their excellent renditions of the J15 and 700 classes, not to mention the 1940s Bulleid Q1. 

As Covkid remarks, these types and their ilk may not be seen by potential hobbyists, let alone collectors, as the most engaging of locomotives, but the requirements of many modellers will encompass the necessity of a Victorian goods engine (or two) on their model railways. 

Being Southern based, I was more than pleased with the release of the Drummond 700 class by Hornby and imagined at the time, its possible lesser appeal would mean a low production run and immediately purchased one of the early releases - just in case! Not certain of Hornby’s expectations of sales, but not a year later these models were almost static on the shelves. The more sceptical of us may have reasoned that retailers and manufacturer alike were more than pleased when available stocks did eventually begin to diminish. 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Right Away
correction

[Legend]

They don’t seem to learn . Maybe the tier system has ended but the affects are still there . I’m hearing that Hornbys new TTA is very good . Now this is the sort of model that could sell be the shedload (even at that price) but I’m getting told that model shops are having an allocation of ………..three ! 

[The Stationmaster]

55 minutes ago, Legend said:

They don’t seem to learn . Maybe the tier system has ended but the affects are still there . I’m hearing that Hornbys new TTA is very good . Now this is the sort of model that could sell be the shedload (even at that price) but I’m getting told that model shops are having an allocation of ………..three ! 

As II said - ending tiers won'y necessarily end rationing.

 

Hornby facea difficult because they try to serve so many different markets, often with theh same model, and clearly they've often got it wrong on demand in the past. (like trying to clear they way through a big pile of unsold J15s and Class 71s).   I think a lot of it comes back to poor marketing and hopefully that will now improve; but possibly money available for buying in stock might also have played a part?

 

Once again we are back in a 'time will tell' situation as the new management structure gets to grips with the company's problems - some of which are clearly longstanding.

[Legend]

57 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As II said - ending tiers won'y necessarily end rationing.

 

Hornby facea difficult because they try to serve so many different markets, often with theh same model, and clearly they've often got it wrong on demand in the past. (like trying to clear they way through a big pile of unsold J15s and Class 71s).   I think a lot of it comes back to poor marketing and hopefully that will now improve; but possibly money available for buying in stock might also have played a part?

 

Once again we are back in a 'time will tell' situation as the new management structure gets to grips with the company's problems - some of which are clearly longstanding.

yes it’s going to take a while to work through previous stocking and marketing decisions . It is a shame though, here we have a company that wants sales , cash flow and margin , shops that want to buy more but are being starved . 

[40F]

Surely the answer is to go back to basics and decide whether or not they are retail company or manufacturer . They can`t be both. Bachmann although they have a shop in Barwell/Hinkley do not sell directly to the public as a rule. Hornby ought to take a long hard look at them selves and realize that continual retooling does not work, and people want new models, not just reissues. A certain persons " retirement" has probably helped but it needs somebody with a knowledge of the the hobby, and not one who is figures orientated .    

Edited December 10, 2023 by 40F

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, 40F said:

Surely the answer is to go back to basics and decide whether or not they are retail company or manufacturer . They can`t be both. Bachmann although they have a shop in Barwell/Hinkley do not sell directly to the public as a rule. Hornby ought to take a long hard look at them selves and realize that continual retooling does not work, and people want new models, not just reissues. A certain persons " retirement" has probably helped but it need somebody with a knowledge of the the hobby, and not one who is figures orientated .    

Retooling is quite popular amongst buyers - otherwise no-one would be buying all that Accurascale stuff and everyone would still be purchasing Hornby 31s and 50s or Bachmann 37s and 55s.

 

However, there is a limit no doubt to how many times an A3 can be retooled.

 

Whilst there is always a clamour for new models, retooling existing models to make them better has financial sense because they are generally of a popular model that people want.

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, 40F said:

. A certain persons " retirement" has probably helped but it need somebody with a knowledge of the the hobby, and not one who is figures orientated .    

 

Hornby loses money year after year. The share price sinks ever deeper. I think Hornby needs a lot more people who are both figures oriented and have a knowledge of the hobby. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Part of the problem with Hornby, IMHO, is that they have had too many changes — they no sooner settle on a strategy than they're preparing for another change — a bit like a football team which is always changing the manager or "head coach" without having an overall plan in mind. And as Gerard Fiennes said, "when you reorganise, you bleed".

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As II said - ending tiers won't necessarily end rationing.

 

Hornby face a difficult because they try to serve so many different markets, often with theh same model, and clearly they've often got it wrong on demand in the past. (like trying to clear they way through a big pile of unsold J15s and Class 71s).   I think a lot of it comes back to poor marketing and hopefully that will now improve; but possibly money available for buying in stock might also have played a part?

 

Once again we are back in a 'time will tell' situation as the new management structure gets to grips with the company's problems - some of which are clearly longstanding.

 

1 hour ago, Legend said:

It is a shame though, here we have a company that wants sales , cash flow and margin , shops that want to buy more but are being starved . 

 

1 hour ago, 40F said:

Hornby ought to take a long hard look at them selves and realize that continual retooling does not work, and people want new models, not just reissues. A certain persons " retirement" has probably helped but it need somebody with a knowledge of the the hobby, and not one who is figures orientated .    

 

I agree with all of this, and I hope the new management team are able to focus their efforts and convince their BoD that the investment is worthy.  Good honest saleable products which people want to buy, which manufactured and meted out in a logical manner.  It would actually be really beneficial to understand the products they are manufacturing and selling - in context with reality.   As an example a new rake of coaching stock models from the 1950s would inevitably * require less first class, less catering and less brake vehicles.  But for goodness sake produce the 2nd class or 3rd class vehicle because that is the most numerous, and probably most desired. Yes. I am looking at the TT:120 range and seeing the Rovex range recreated - a BSK and a CK.  The typical Mk1 train that I saw in the 1970s and early `1980s had one BSK, a CK or maybe two, and the rest were SKs or TSOs. So Hornby are only offering three out of eleven or twelve coaches the modeller needs.

 

 

 

*  Southern excepting

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 09/12/2023 at 21:33, Covkid said:

I imagine there a very few like me who prefer the boring black "goods" engines...

Not a matter of preference but rather necessity, if a steam layout operation is to look realistic.

 

But are Hornby failing in this respect? Hornby dominate my RTR OO pre-group design black locos in the following wheel arrangements: 0-8-0, 0-6-0, 4-4-0, 0-6-0T, 0-6-2T, 4-6-0, and are on par overall with Bachmann for grouping and BR black design MT and goods locos. When it is considered that this is how Bachmann initially differentiated themselves from Hornby, that seems a good recovery to me. Other brands barely get a look in,  one each for Heljan and Sonic (and most welcome too) Acc'n'Rap now bidding to sell me an 0-6-0T each.

 

And on top of that Hornby also dominate in the wide firebox power stakes by 7 vs 4 from Bachmann, no other brands competing.

 

In short,from my perspective they are slaying the competition in loco sales but somehow possibly not making enough money at it...

On 09/12/2023 at 21:33, Covkid said:

why there isn't an "Austin 7" Fowler 0-8-0 or a humble little Midland 2F 0-6-0 / "Cauliflower". 

The long ago explanation I was given and accept on this matter - from a late doyen of the LMS group interest - is that for the majority it's largely about the Stanier designs.  I'd add a 2F 0-6-0 and Park 0-6-0T like a shot to run alongside the 3F 0-6-0 and 0-6-0T, Coal tank and G2A on the many around London freight movements. Perhaps Bachmann's advance into this subject area led Hornby to retreat?

Edited December 11, 2023 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
turns out I cannot reliably do basic arithmetic

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Hornby loses money year after year. The share price sinks ever deeper. I think Hornby needs a lot more people who are both figures oriented and have a knowledge of the hobby. 

Which poses the question 'which hobby?'.   In theory, assuming the right people are in the right jobs.  that is exactly what the current changes will do through teh emphais on product management through Brand Managers.

 

Apart from the overall decline in revenue (when inflation is taken into account) what we don't know - admin costs aside - is what drives the losses at Hornby in terms of brands.  We can reasonably expect that they have lost market share in model railways but des that mean that area is a loss maker?   We get the impression that Airfix does pretty well but does that mean it generates a bottom line profit?  We know - in broad terms - where their sales are by value but we don';t know what is or isn't selling.  In other words Hornby's management know a lot more than we do and hopefully they are managing their business according to what they know.

[Dunsignalling]

On 10/12/2023 at 14:14, Covkid said:

 

 

 

I agree with all of this, and I hope the new management team are able to focus their efforts and convince their BoD that the investment is worthy.  Good honest saleable products which people want to buy, which manufactured and meted out in a logical manner.  It would actually be really beneficial to understand the products they are manufacturing and selling - in context with reality.   As an example a new rake of coaching stock models from the 1950s would inevitably * require less first class, less catering and less brake vehicles.  But for goodness sake produce the 2nd class or 3rd class vehicle because that is the most numerous, and probably most desired. Yes. I am looking at the TT:120 range and seeing the Rovex range recreated - a BSK and a CK.  The typical Mk1 train that I saw in the 1970s and early `1980s had one BSK, a CK or maybe two, and the rest were SKs or TSOs. So Hornby are only offering three out of eleven or twelve coaches the modeller needs.

 

 

 

*  Southern excepting

 

 

 

True, and I'd think a TT120 SK and SO will inevitably follow at some point.

 

However, in OO, the "basic" three BSK, CK, SK, allow us to make up authentic trains of up to eight coaches, so long as dining provision isn't required. SR formations were formalised but much the same practice was applied to many services on other regions, just without set numbers on the ends and, in the case of the WR, usually including a minimum of two different generations of coach design!

 

3-set: BSK+CK+BSK,

4-set: BSK_CK+SK+BSK,

5-set: BSK+SK+CK+SK+BSK,

6-set: BSK+SK+SK+2CK+BSK,

8-set: BSK+2SK+2CK+2SK+BSK. 

 

Of, course for multi-portioned SR expresses one also needs Bulleid BCK+BSK 2-sets (Bachmann) and loose BCKs, hopefully "to follow"! 

 

Hornby has provided a lot of the Maunsell SR types, and the short Bulleid 3-set, along with an only-slightly-incomplete selection of Maunsell catering stock (ignoring the BR rebuilds). Also the basics for LMS Stanier P3 (60' CK excepted), WR (Collett) and rather more diverse range of Hawksworths, all to a very nice standard. 

 

Bachmann has covered all but the more esoteric iterations of BR Mk1 stock, and decent "foundation" selections of LMR (Porthole), SR (standard Bulleid 63') and ER (Thompson) stock.

 

All we are lacking for the late group and BR steam eras are catering vehicles, earlier LMS designs and a P3 CK, along with GWR Toplight and Sunshine stock, which seem likely to emerge from Dapol/Bachmann in the fullness of time. The SR gaps are relatively small, though not insignificant, A Bulleid "loose" BCK, Ironclads, and the rarer Bulleid 63' "all door" and BRCW 3-sets. Oh, and Tavern Cars....

 

The glaring shortfall is with LNER Gresley corridor stock. Hornby's range is limited, oddly chosen and compromised in ways that contrast starkly with what they offer to pull them. Everybody else seems reluctant to enter the fray because Hornby surely have something better in the pipeline, don't they? 😉

 

John          

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

On 09/12/2023 at 22:24, ColinB said:

I imagine these types would now be on their list to do or if not Hornby, one of the other Manufacturers. Rails seem to be doing well by doing special commissions of obscure locos. I must admit the ones I buy now are the more obscure ones like Rails do, I have more than enough of the Hornby usual types. I don't know what their new management will go for, I suspect low cost high profit, so minimum separately fitted parts.

I think that low(er) cost, higher profit is what TT-120 was conceived for.

 

My guess is that, once that is performing to the satisfaction of the money men, we'll see Hornby turn their attention to rationalising their OO activities.

 

Full-fat OO (and, even less, "New Dublo") are not in direct opposition to TT-120 (or vice versa), but Railroad does represent that kind of internal competition. Railroad price levels are, in some cases, moving toward those at which some of the newer players are offering much higher standards. TT-120 is probably not yet sufficiently established for Railroad to be at existential risk, but I suspect that a day of decision may be closer than we imagine.

 

John

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

42 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

True, and I'd think a TT120 SK and SO will inevitably follow at some point.

 

However, in OO, the "basic" three BSK, CK, SK, allow us to make up authentic trains of up to eight coaches, so long as dining provision isn't required. SR formations were formalised but much the same practice was applied to many services on other regions, just without set numbers on the ends and, in the case of the WR, usually including a minimum of two different generations of coach design!

 

3-set: BSK+CK+BSK,

4-set: BSK_CK+SK+BSK,

5-set: BSK+SK+CK+SK+BSK,

6-set: BSK+SK+SK+2CK+BSK,

8-set: BSK+2SK+2CK+2SK+BSK. 

 

Of, course for multi-portioned SR expresses one also needs Bulleid BCK+BSK 2-sets (Bachmann) and loose BCKs, hopefully "to follow"! 

 

Hornby has provided a lot of the Maunsell SR types, and the short Bulleid 3-set, along with an only-slightly-incomplete selection of Maunsell catering stock (ignoring the BR rebuilds). Also the basics for LMS Stanier P3 (60' CK excepted), WR (Collett) and rather more diverse range of Hawksworths, all to a very nice standard. 

 

Bachmann has covered all but the more esoteric iterations of BR Mk1 stock, and decent "foundation" selections of LMR (Porthole), SR (standard Bulleid 63') and ER (Thompson) stock.

 

All we are lacking for the late group and BR steam eras are catering vehicles, earlier LMS designs and a P3 CK, along with GWR Toplight and Sunshine stock, which seem likely to emerge from Dapol/Bachmann in the fullness of time. The SR gaps are relatively small, though not insignificant, A Bulleid "loose" BCK, Ironclads, and the rarer Bulleid 63' "all door" and BRCW 3-sets. Oh, and Tavern Cars....

 

The glaring shortfall is with LNER Gresley corridor stock. Hornby's range is limited, oddly chosen and compromised in ways that contrast starkly with what they offer to pull them. Everybody else seems reluctant to enter the fray because Hornby surely have something better in the pipeline, don't they? 😉

 

John          

 

For the record - a Mk1 all second [previously signalled as TSO , but SK would simply be an alternative interior moulding] and BG are promised for TT120 in Phases 3 + 4. Gresley BTK and CK are also promised . If you are prepared to tolerate the gangway mismatch (as the LMR, WR and ScR perforce had to in real life..) then LMS P3  all first and all third +BG should be available in TT120 in a few monthsa

 

You omit Hornby's substantial commitment to non-gangwayed stock - two ranges of LNER non-gangwayed coaches, an LMS P3 non-gangwayed range (that sold very badly despite being perfectly good models) and GW Collett non-gangway stock (which sold only a little better ). The 58' Maunsell rebuilds did ok.. Not to mention the generic 4 and 6 wheelers

 

Also the Coronation and Coronation Scot sets - those vehicles were used in general service post war...

 

However Hornby seem to have got their fingers a little burnt on coaching stock in recent years, and after a huge investment over the last 15 years I can see investment in new tooling in this area being reined right back. The trouble with the LMS CK is that the 60' underframe was used for little else, which bumps up your tooling cost. Apart from a couple of new Dean clerestories I can't see many 4mm opportunities

 

And new-tooled coaches in OO are now coming out around the £80 mark . This is one area where I think Hornby will now sit tight and simply run their existing 4mm scale tooling at the £60-£65 mark for the foreseeable future. In the last 15 years they've been the market leader in new coach tooling but I think that's over. Bachmann have been fairly quiet on this front for quite a while

 

It is quite hard to find a potential OO coach subject that while be any where near as good a prospect for investment as that Mk1 all sdecond in TT:120....

[BachelorBoy]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

In other words Hornby's management know a lot more than we do and hopefully they are managing their business according to what they know.

 

You would hope so! But this is Hornby :-)

[BachelorBoy]

On 10/12/2023 at 22:14, Covkid said:

 

I agree with all of this, and I hope the new management team are able to focus their efforts and convince their BoD that the investment is worthy. 

 

Olympics, tiers, Titfield Thunderbolt, steampunk, etc

 

 Hornby's board of directors must be rather naïve and easy to convince

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby surely have something better in the pipeline, don't they?

Indeed, but an even more limited selection operationally! Won't stop me buying the Coronation set.

 

A better choice from among the end vestibule Gresley designs - especially as it has now been demonstrated that an accurate side profile is possible -  would be 'welcome'. But, the old 'Kirks' soldier on looking properly dated and slightly run down, alongside Bachmann's shiny mk 1 and (recent very fine) Thompson stock.