Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?

[Dagworth]

5 minutes ago, Metropolitan said:

Young people will again realise that real things are, well, just much more fun

The increase again in real media in the music business (CDs, LPs, even cassettes!) says you may well be right.

 

Andi

[C126]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... more people in the UK who would recognise and identify with young Mr Malik ...

 

I was listening to the B.B.C. Asian Network radio station yester-day after-noon, and the presenter was getting very excited about his collaboration.

 

[C126]

1 hour ago, D-A-T said:

PS On a purely personal note the closure of Eileen’s Emporium was a greater blow for me. Would that some enterprising Young Turk take up the reins!

 

There is Squires of Bognor Regis (no connection, but a contented customer at a few exhibitions).

 

http://www.squirestools.com/

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

It's either one way or the other. On the one hand we've had a 2 or 3 of good TV shows about model railway, saying how the hobby is becoming 'cool' again (not sure I'd go that far, myself) and those were things like Pete Waterman's series about celebrities who have model railways. There was The Great Model Railway Challenge where teams competed and there were a reassuring number of younger people doing some pretty nice layouts. There were the documentaries about Hornby as well so there was plenty for the public at large to get their teeth into.

 

On the other hand we get sensationalist headlines that don't really tell the whole story. 

 

I really enjoy following the Scratch/kitbuilding threads so not exactly mainstream.

 

As to Hattons I don't know what's caused that however their closure will leave a big hole in the market for a little while, which no doubt another retailer or three will fill. It's the staff who have found themselves unexpectedly looking for work who I have sympathy for. 

 

I think the changes in the hobby are natural and while the Internet might be an influence I wouldn't say its good or bad on its own, after all we've got YouTube and a good number of model railway channels, Jenny Kirk, Sam's Trains, New Junction  Chadwick Model Railway and Everard Junction, Oscar Paisley  and 00Bill are some of my favourites. It would seem the interest is there but it might manifest itself in a different way 

Edited January 15 by The Evil Bus Driver

[The Evil Bus Driver]

7 minutes ago, C126 said:

 

There is Squires of Bognor Regis (no connection, but a contented customer at a few exhibitions).

 

http://www.squirestools.com/

 

I used to do rail replacement buses right past their door...

 

They own SE Finecast now too so they're a good place to get loco kits as well as handy tools to help build them.

[andyman7]

22 hours ago, DaveF said:

Over the 65+ years I've been buying model railway items, starting with pocket money purchases, I've known a lot of model shops close and other start up.  I don't think any of the ones I used up to the late 70s are still trading - M G Sharp, Victors, Ray Rippon, Fratton, Gee Dees, Newcastle Model Shop, Millholme Models shop, Guy Norris, Peter Denny etc.  

 

But then several of the garages I've bought cars from have gone, a lot of electrcical retailers have gone.  Things change all the time, business come and go. 

 

I expect there will be railway modellers about as long as there are real trains, but as with all hobbies it may look different and the numbers may change.

 

As others have said it seems to be the job of the media - print, web based or whatever to spread doom and gloom.  I just ignore them, along with much of the news - and if I do want news I always look at a number of different sources to try to get a more balanced view.

 

Thinkng about prices, model railways have never been that cheap compared to earnings.  Some will disagree but once again I would suggest the media have jumped on the bandwagon about the "cost of living crisis".  It would be better reported as a severe problem for some people, a bit of a problem for others and no problem at all for another segment of the population.  Those of us who are old enough should think back to the 1970/80s inflation and pay rises- mine lagged behing inflation for a long time and with mortgage costs then even buying food was an issue some months and there were no food banks then.

 

David

For any of us of a certain age its easy to reel off a list of shops and suppliers that have gone - but all to easy to ignore the ones that have emerged since then. Look at a Railway Modeller from the early 80s and there's no Kernow Models or TMC, no Rapido or Accurascale (or even Bachmann Branchline except in its embryonic Mainline Railways guise).
Similarly with prices, there's now 70 years' worth of 2 rail model railways out there and plenty of unboxed pre-90s items have pretty much achieved 'junk' status in used and abused condition, i.e. perfect for some actual modelling. Some will have followed the MTK kits thread in the 'collectable' forum area, which has become by far the longest running active thread I've started in my time on RMWeb - some of the best fun I have is mucking around with kits and bits picked up for a song that when I was a child would have been totally out of my reach from either a skill or financial aspect.
In absolute numbers we may have passed the peak but through my son and my involvement at club level I can tell you that there are many enthusiastic and passionate youths out there and the hobby isn't going to die because a few less RTR models are made. 
As for shows, yes, Warley was an event but 2024 is still giving us several big shows, many more medium sized ones (including the welcome return of the Chatham show) and countless local events.   

Edited January 16 by andyman7
Spelling

[37114]

I was chatting about this with my old man last night who while not a modeller is interested in Railways and has modelled previously. He had read the news re Hattons and Warley and we broadly came to the same place;

 

- It is sad to lose Hattons for both the people who work there and it is a famous name but there have been other famous names (eg W&H) who have gone before and the hobby survived

- It is sad to lose Warley as it was a popular show but it is not the first big show to so and the hobby survived

 

I probably see more young people who are modellers at shows now than I did 20 years ago, and the "older generation" is still being replenished by people who are starting the hobby later in life. You only have to look at the advent of new players into the market such as Rapido, Accurascale to name a couple to see there is demand there as why would you bother to commit finance in such business ventures.

 

Edited January 15 by 37114

[The Evil Bus Driver]

1 minute ago, 37114 said:

I was chatting about this with my old man last night who while not a modeller is interested in Railways and has modelled previously. He had read the news re Hattons and Warley and we broadly came to the same place;

 

- It is sad to lose Hattons for both the people who work there and it is a famous name but there have been other famous names (eg W&H) who have gone before and the hobby survived

- It is sad to lose Warley as it was a popular show but it is not the first big show to so and the hobby survived

 

I probably see more young people who are modellers at shows now than I did 20 years ago, and the "older generation" is still being replenished by people who are starting the hobby later in life. You only have to look at the advent of new players into the market such as Rapido, Accurascale to name a couple to see there is demand there as why would you bother to commit finance in such business ventures.

 

I saw a really good mix of younger and older people at GETS and that was so rammed they had to stop entry for a little while on both days. I'll be interested in how this new show at the NEC goes. I'll definitely try and go. 

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Probably depends how you look at it, because a quick google of the figures suggests to me that there might be more people in the UK who would recognise and identify with young Mr Malik than would recognise and identify with Hattons and Warley MRC. Both stories are a bit niche, but I’m not sure which is nichier.

 

My comment was more to do with the writing style and as an example of article that the BBC and many newspapers posts. It even says "Fans rejoice" and I'm guessing the writer is one of those fans. The rest of the population is going "Oh, the one out of One Direction that isn't Harry Styles!". 

 

I would think the closing down of a store that's being going for over seventy odd years and involving the loss of work for many people is news. Something that is being overlooked by many.

 

 

 

Jason

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

That's something else that irks me in the 'bottom half of the internet' with any content which shows something historical - the past was a better place. We've all been there and, on balance, it wasn't. Many of those opinions where 'the past was a better place' are tainted with racism and sexism rather than sticking to historical observation.

For some people it was. Of course it depends just when you mean, but we've all got our own personal preferences, personal likes and dislikes. I would be happier living at some point in the past, simple as that (can argue about exactly when, but that's details rather than the general point). This is not about rose tinted glasses, I'm not blind to the downsides.

 

Please have the decency to not tell me that I am definitely wrong, that's no better than if I were to insist everyone who feels the opposite is. It certainly wasn't perfect and there are certainly things that have improved, but I find the implication that there's something tainting anyone who expresses such an opinion distasteful, to say the least.

 

[Reorte]

As for news, well, no news is good news. It's usually rather easier to find a story in the negatives. They're also frequently sudden, while positive change often happens slowly, which makes it more noticeable, and more likely to be picked up by the media. And "but overall it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things" is likely to result in a "then why have you reported it?" type of response.

 

It's like that on everything it covers.

Edited January 15 by Reorte

[Neil]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

.....  but when the news was reported in two national media titles, the Daily Telegraph and Guardian with titles of “‘Death of the model railway’ as ageing enthusiasts run out of steam” and “‘An aged hobby’: enthusiasts struggle to keep model railway industry on track” respectively it makes you wonder if such media correspondents don’t look beyond the shallow, self-interested and myopic comments I read on Facebook and Youtube? ....

 

 

I read the piece in the Guardian and I didn't think that it presented an unbalanced view of the hobby. I don't think there's any getting away from the fact that the demographic has changed over the years. In the fifties and sixties mass market products were largely aimed at children but exploited by adults; Wills body kits on Triang or Hornby chassis for example. These days the mass market products are aimed at the older, established enthusiast. Certainly over the last few years there's less stuff aimed at pocket money prices. There is perhaps a smaller pool of young enthusiasts who might carry their interest forward into adult life. This has probably been going on for some time now.

 

To give another example; I moved to Wales seventeen years ago when I was in my late forties and started helping to organise and run a local exhibition. I'm now in my early sixties, with creaky knees, but there are no middle aged volunteers hoving into view that might step into my shoes. I think if we're honest we would struggle to see twenty, thirty year younger versions of ourselves, in the same numbers becoming involved to the same extent we did. 

 

Is this doom and gloom; well maybe if we want to somehow freeze time and for the hobby to continue in the way it has done for the past forty or so years but there's also an argument that accepting the reality of where we are allows us to adjust what we do and change before change (or collapse) is thrust upon us. I think this lies behind the recent decisions made by Hattons and the Warley exhibition team. 

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I find the implication that there's something tainting anyone who expresses such an opinion distasteful, to say the least.

 

You miss my point that so many comments say it was better then because a) the council is useless in any pic of your town as it used to be, b) Beeching destroyed the world, etc. I've lost count of the number of Facebook groups for historical images I've left because of racist comments that Admins disregard.

 

You can live in the past with my blessing as long as you don't deride people who aren't to blame for what's changed.

[Typeapproval]

Hi,

 

If you old (like me) the hobby has had Boom & Bust repeatedly over the years I've been interested (1953 was the start date). Sadly some of the things "AY Mod" says in his first piece are 100% correct, though personally I think it a bit "Broad Brush". 

 

For very personal reasons I am not, nor will I ever be a member of a club! However I always try to support our local mob! Sadly the comment about 'financial issues' being part of the hobbies condition is perhaps a little short of the whole picture. For many years the "Ipswich Model Railway Show" was among the biggest. (As has been pointed out this is a politics free zone) HOWEVER! when the rent for the leisure centre that had been the venue for some while was hugely raised, it became unaffordable! The local authority responsible, it seems decided that it made more financial sense to loose the income they were getting and having the property underused than allow the exhibition to continue as was with  

 

I believe that this was not a unique event, Clubs may not be businesses but they aren't "Loss Centres" either. I imaging the NEC was not a cheap hire!

 

I live on my pension, (Not a bad one) and as a consequence consider some of the retail prices being asked for what are Discretionary purchases possibly pushing the envelope.

 

Strangely the two issues are not as remotely connected as it may look, I for many years took my grandsons to the exhibition in a effort to encourage their interest in the hobby. When it became necessary to sit in the car for a couple of hours the interest faded. Having handed a fist full of cash to a retailer, I honestly am concerned to allow close contact between the children and the £150+ locomotive.

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I remember Triang releasing "TT" railways. Subsequently it disappeared, leaving My Father-in-law with a part finished layout, relying on secondhand.

My fear Is that Hornby TT120 a lifeboat for the brand? Do others see it in that way? More for the press to use to create negative image of our hobby.

 

When I first took a practical interest, the amount of RTR was minimal. The magazines encouraged us to construct using cereal box cardboard, there were many "Small suppliers" advertising a huge variety of things. We are in a very good place with equipment, sadly much being quite costly.

 

Regards

David. 

 

[2ManySpams]

Well said @AY Mod

 

I've not bought anything from Hattons for a good 5 years (except some plasticard in their closing sale). I've not visited Warley show for 10 years (hated the crush). I've not been a member of a model railway club for over 20 years (but support my old one when I can).

 

On that basis I'm totally doomed and can't possibly do any modelling. 

 

There are other forums for sharing info, other shows to visit, and other places to buy materials. Life goes on, stuff changes and we adjust. 

[Reorte]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

You miss my point that so many comments say it was better then because a) the council is useless in any pic of your town as it used to be, b) Beeching destroyed the world, etc. I've lost count of the number of Facebook groups for historical images I've left because of racist comments that Admins disregard.

 

You can live in the past with my blessing as long as you don't deride people who aren't to blame for what's changed.

That's fair. Certainly the amount of racism around is one thing that should definitely be left in the past; even though society's definitely not perfect there now it's improved a great deal on that front.

[TravisM]

People bemoan that the Warley show has been cancelled, but fail to mention that show's are hard work to organise, as @AY Mod will affirms with the BRM shows, mainly done by club members who are retired as they have the time (and usually the organisational skills) to get sorted.  We in the East of England have lost two big shows recently, the BRM show at Peterborough Showground because the owners put the site up for sale to build houses on, and the East of England show, put on by St Neots MRC, scaled back because the older members didn't want to do it anymore.  Is anyone up in arms, no.

 

As for Hatton's, I understand their reasons to close, things can't go on for ever, but I do sympathise with those who no doubt lose their jobs, but as modellers, we will continue, find other dealers.  People should just move on and enjoy their lives, no matter what they do, as I pointed out to someone the other day, were here on this ball of rock for three/four generations then die, so we only rent or borrow stuff, we don't own it, and 100 years after our deaths, no-one will remember or care about us.

 

 

[Metropolitan]

Why are my posts being deleted?

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Metropolitan said:

Why are my posts being deleted?

 

Because they're irrelevant to the topic.

[Metropolitan]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Because they're irrelevant to the topic.

Fair enough.

[arran]

HI All 

 

Shows come and shows go all the time But this was the biggest ,  its not only a loss to the visiting public but also the traders and manufacturers that that were attending .

 

I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , but they basically had a meeting to rubber stamp its demise . 

 

As for Hattons !!!!    im sad for the staff  losing their job.  Plenty other places to get models 

 

Regards Arran

 

 

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, arran said:

HI All 

 

Shows come and shows go all the time But this was the biggest ,  its not only a loss to the visiting public but also the traders and manufacturers that that were attending .

 

I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , but they basically had a meeting to rubber stamp its demise . 

 

As for Hattons !!!!    im sad for the staff  losing their job.  Plenty other places to get models 

 

Regards Arran

 

 

As I've said elsewhere, WMRC had no responsibility to carry the flag for the whole model railway community and yet here they are being asked to do so by people without a say in the matter.

 

They had a meeting, did a democratic vote at said meeting and agreed it was time to call it a day for the reasons stated.

 

There are plenty of other shows where the same exhibitors will be, the same retailers and the same demonstrations.  Warley might have been the biggest, someone else will pick up the mantle now.

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, arran said:

HI All 

 

Shows come and shows go all the time But this was the biggest ,  its not only a loss to the visiting public but also the traders and manufacturers that that were attending .

 

I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , but they basically had a meeting to rubber stamp its demise .

I think that's very unfair indeed. There's a great deal of difference between "can't be bothered" and finding the considerable amount of effort involved getting too much, and I don't believe the hobby owes them more than thanks for everything they have done.

 

There's nothing stopping another group organising a similar show.

[Neil]

22 minutes ago, arran said:

.... I can understand as folk get older they cant be bothered , but this was One club that built up the National show  and to a point had a responsibility to the hobby , ....

 

16 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I think that's very unfair indeed. There's a great deal of difference between "can't be bothered" and finding the considerable amount of effort involved getting too much, and I don't believe the hobby owes them more than thanks for everything they have done. ....

 

For most of us, it's a hobby and even 'can no longer be bothered' is a valid reason to quit. I actually think that it's more like 'getting too much' particularly if you read the press release. As Reorte has said we should thank them for what they have done rather than criticise for what they no longer choose to do.

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

I find a couple of things especially grating among the general doom and gloom: 

1. The contrast between the affection for Hattons and Warley now they're gone and the almost universal negativity about Hornby's 2024 OO launch. I for one will miss Hornby if they go bust and there's virtually nothing entry level in OO and no train sets. 

2. The suggestion that "younger modellers are priced out of the hobby/there's nothing entry level any more". Often made by super detail modellers who haven't bought anything entry level for decades and haven't studied the Railroad or train set range lately.

Once you adjust for inflation Hornby's prices are pretty flat at the entry level, while median household earnings have doubled since 1980 in real terms, meaning that the hobby's cheaper than ever.