I like/dislike foreign layouts - discuss

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Mind you, a Nazi-themed model railway would raise a few eyebrows.

I'm not a lawyer but think it would be illegal to exhibit one in some countries including Germany, but not Britain.

[Bernard Lamb]

5 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I'm not a lawyer but think it would be illegal to exhibit one in some countries including Germany, but not Britain.

Not a problem these days.

As far as the legal situation goes.

But it can still be a sensitive topic in some quarters.

I have posted photographs on the forum and never had a complaint.

It depends on the situation.

The Gilbert and George work did cause some comments as a lot of people were not aware of the extreme nature of it and it was a long time ago and people were more sensitive back then.

Bernard

[TEAMYAKIMA]

This is the only photo I can find of the Bridge at Remagen N gauge layout set in late 1944. It features some very high quality modelling (the bridge is scratchbuilt from brass strip) and the layout is packed with cameos referencing various big-screen war films.

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

11 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

This is the only photo I can find of the Bridge at Remagen N gauge layout set in late 1944. It features some very high quality modelling (the bridge is scratchbuilt from brass strip) and the layout is packed with cameos referencing various big-screen war films.

 

 

 

That is one layout that does not do anything for me. Yes, the bridge is a super model. But I find the general impression rather sanitized, in respect of both scenery and stock for the period. I have probbly spent far too long in some of the more grotty parts of Germany.😃

Bernard 

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have probbly spent far too long in some of the more grotty parts of Germany.😃

Bernard 

Grotty bits are usuall the most interesting bits to model :-)

[Bernard Lamb]

About 15 years ago the late Jacq Damen brought his layout Dreimuhlentalbahn to Warley. It won an award and also received a lot of favouable comments. There might be some footage of it on line. Jacq died  a few years ago so I cannot contact him for details. The layout was, is I shoud say as the last thing I heard it had found a new home, around 50' long from memory and represents a valley with three mills. Industrial grot at its finest.

The funny thing is that the viewing public admired the scenery and the running. Proof that foreign stuff can hold the attention of a UK audience.Little did they know that for the first hour at Warley I was under the basebord holding a lamp while Jacq wielded a soldering iron trying to get power to more than just one circuit of track, while the operators worked hard to keep at least some trains running.

Bernard

[JZ]

4 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

This is the only photo I can find of the Bridge at Remagen N gauge layout set in late 1944. It features some very high quality modelling (the bridge is scratchbuilt from brass strip) and the layout is packed with cameos referencing various big-screen war films.

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveF]

I was thinking about when I started to look at articles in magazines and actually looking at continental layouts at exhibitions and realised that it was about the time I was 15.  Until then I'd skipped the pages in Dad's magazines when they featured anything from outside Britain.

 

So then I wondered what changed.  I remembered that when I was 14 I went to spend a month at Easter with French friends I'd met on holiday in England.  Dad took me to Newhaven to make sure I caught the ferry, I then travelled to Dieppe, got the train to Paris and met one of the friends for a meal there.  We then went to Toulouse and on to Albi where they lived by train.  Coming back I caught the train by myself at Albi and travelled to Paris overnight.  Getting off the train in Paris I encountered a friend of the family I stayed with who was going to see his mother.  He borrowed her car and spent the morning showing me Paris, dropping me off in good time to catch the train to Dieppe and the ferry back to England.  By then I could speak French quite well.

 

I wonder what would happen if I was that age now and travelled by myself on the same journey?

 

That is when my interest in foreigh railways started. 

 

David

[PaulRhB]

10 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I'm not a lawyer but think it would be illegal to exhibit one in some countries including Germany, but not Britain.

No it’s the Nazi symbols for the party or ss that are banned not WW2 military models so as long as they carry the standard German balkenkreuz markings it’s ok as that is still used today. 

[Craigw]

46 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

No it’s the Nazi symbols for the party or ss that are banned not WW2 military models so as long as they carry the standard German balkenkreuz markings it’s ok as that is still used today. 

 

The Balkenkreuz used today is the WW1 period version 

 

Craig W

[Craigw]

12 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

That is one layout that does not do anything for me. Yes, the bridge is a super model. But I find the general impression rather sanitized, in respect of both scenery and stock for the period. I have probbly spent far too long in some of the more grotty parts of Germany.😃

Bernard 

 

 

While I admire the scenic work on the layout, as one who is also a military modeller , the actual military stuff does not gell for me. 

[DavidB-AU]

6 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

No it’s the Nazi symbols for the party or ss that are banned not WW2 military models so as long as they carry the standard German balkenkreuz markings it’s ok as that is still used today. 

 

However Strafgesetzbuch 86(a)(3) says the ban does not apply "wenn die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung ... der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient" ("if the act serves civic education ... art or science, research or teaching, reporting on current events or history or similar purposes").

 

A model or diorama accurately depicting historical events for display in a museum with the proper context would be legal, in the same way it is legal to use banned symbols in a film depicting that period in history (Der Untergang/Downfall being an excellent example).

[BachelorBoy]

10 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

However Strafgesetzbuch 86(a)(3) says the ban does not apply "wenn die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung ... der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient" ("if the act serves civic education ... art or science, research or teaching, reporting on current events or history or similar purposes").

 

A model or diorama accurately depicting historical events for display in a museum with the proper context would be legal, in the same way it is legal to use banned symbols in a film depicting that period in history (Der Untergang/Downfall being an excellent example).

 

I was thinking more of a model railway with marching Hitler Youth and SS troops, and perhaps Hitler himself on his own train, and loads of swastika banners. That would raise eyebrows, I think, even in the UK

 

*** NB this is an exaggeration to make a point ***

Edited March 12 by BachelorBoy
*** NB this is an exaggeration to make a point ***

[PaulRhB]

5 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

A model or diorama accurately depicting historical events for display in a museum with the proper context would be legal, in the same way it is legal to use banned symbols in a film depicting that period in history (Der Untergang/Downfall being an excellent example).

Yes and in context in a museum no problem. Making a layout at a show educational would require it supported by material putting it into context so I think quite a display challenge as a standalone to tell the wider story that films or museums can as they have a period of time / space to take you through it. 
The simple matter of moral taste would make several of the items mentioned in the previous post questionable without supporting story material even in the UK. I think many exhibition managers would baulk at it if they knew before inviting it. 

[Bernard Lamb]

9 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

 

While I admire the scenic work on the layout, as one who is also a military modeller , the actual military stuff does not gell for me. 

You and me seem to have very similar views regarding this layout. We both appear to be trying hard to be polite.😃

I think it is a shame that such an amount of effort is let down by the lack of knowledge.

There was a GDR period layout at a local show some time ago. I was collared by a very well known expert modeller of matters UK andd German and taken to meet the people behind the layout. I was asked to be open with any comments as they were willing to learn. They were very happy when I could only point out that there was too great a variety of stock and that things were a little bit too clean.

Bernard

[Not Jeremy]

7 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

I was thinking more of a model railway with marching Hitler Youth and SS troops, and perhaps Hitler himself on his own train, and loads of swastika banners. That would raise eyebrows, I think, even in the UK

 

Apart from wanting to stir up a pointless discussion in the hope that it goes pear shaped, I can not think why anyone with any intelligence should be

 

"thinking more of a model railway with marching Hitler youth etc...."

 

A definite contender for a RUCA

 

RMweb Utter Cobblers Award

 

 

[Reorte]

22 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Grotty bits are usuall the most interesting bits to model :-)

Personally I find it depends on the grot (well, to look at, not really tried to model much). Dirty stone, mills, soot, yes, concrete, litter, graffiti, no.

[fezza]

I remember going to Germany with my parents in the 1980s. They banned me from taking my WW2 German toy soldiers in case they offended anyone. In the first toy shop in Cologne I visited I bought a box of Waffen-SS. Well, I needed someone for my Tommies to kill.

 

The shop owner was in his 80s and I suspect he had his own views about the war and West German law. 

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

Apart from wanting to stir up a pointless discussion in the hope that it goes pear shaped, I can not think why anyone with any intelligence should be

 

"thinking more of a model railway with marching Hitler youth etc...."

 

A definite contender for a RUCA

 

RMweb Utter Cobblers Award

 

 

 

Not really. If it acceptable to make a diorama of Nazi soldiers and their weapons, why is it not acceptable to model Nazi railways? 

 

I am just trying to understand the difference. It's question about the philosophy of modelling across different types of modelling.

 

[APOLLO]

The bridge over the River Kwai would make a good model - Nothing like in the film though.

 

 

 

 

The nearby museum is well worth a visit.

 

 

The military cemetery across the road is very well kept.

 

 

Brit15

Edited March 13 by APOLLO

[fezza]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Not really. If it acceptable to make a diorama of Nazi soldiers and their weapons, why is it not acceptable to model Nazi railways? 

 

I am just trying to understand the difference. It's question about the philosophy of modelling across different types of modelling.

 

 

Lilliput used to produce Nazi era narrow gauge steam engines and stock. They have the Nazi era eagle on them...

Edited March 12 by fezza
Corrected

[Morello Cherry]

In the words of The Breeders: 'I like all the different people'.

 

And mad props to anyone who does decide to exhibit, it isn't something I would do. I might be a good home cook but I have zero desire to go on any cooking show.

 

Good modelling is good modelling irrespective of where, when or scale.

 

A brilliant recreation of a specific place or time can hold my attention for hours but on the other hand so can a layout that is flat out fun.

 

I could spend as long watching 'Copenhagen Fields' as watching the old Gauge One live steam layout.

 

Was there anything 'special' modelling wise about the Gauge One layout - not especially although the electric ECS workings on the lower level were always fun to watch. But meths, steam and long trains. I can happily lose myself watching that.

 

Twee stuff is twee stuff. Whether that is the garden gnome like figures for 16mm or a war nostalgia layout, or just where everything is a bit too clean. But I can usually look past that. Urban decay rarely portrayed, although there are a few layouts that do, so something that is a novelty will get my attention than another iteration of an imagined rural idyll.

 

The other thing at matters to me is ethos and attitude. For example I could completely get behind a layout organised by this group because to me that is what railway modelling is all about. A big turnoff for me is operator attitude - there is enough tiresome macho hardman nonsense in the world without it coming into the hobby. So you can have the most wonderful layout but if you are an arse who thinks they are jesus, well I'll be moving onto the next layout.

 

With regard to North American and some European modelling. Having lived in both North America and various places around Europe. I think that physical modelling doesn't capture is the sheer scale. It is impossible to model a 100+ wagon North American freight train well. Likewise, it is impossible to model a short line with maybe 1 train a week picking up and dropping off maybe 1 box car. I also think it is impossible to capture the scale of North American scenary or indeed European mountains. In many ways this is where electronic modelling ie Train Simulator comes into its own. Even something like Maple Leaf Tracks Kicking Horse Pass which came out maybe 20 odd years ago, captured Canadian mountain railroading and the Kicking Horse Pass in a way in which no scale physical model could. But there have been plenty of North American and European layouts that have caught my eye over the years.

 

In the end as with most things it depends on my mood as to whether I linger or move on but the biggest turnoff is douche behaviour.

 

Oh and no nude figures or 'humorous' scenes. Just cheesy beyond cheesy and embarassing. It's like dad dancing. Just no.

Edited March 12 by Morello Cherry

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

 

Lilliput used to produce Nazi era narrow gauge steam engines and stock. They have the Nazi era eagle on them...

 

There's a  lot of models of German trains of that era, many manufacturers address the issue around the DR insignia by turning into a tilted battening shape. I have a couple of express diesel railcars from Kato and Lilliput.

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes and in context in a museum no problem. Making a layout at a show educational would require it supported by material putting it into context so I think quite a display challenge as a standalone to tell the wider story that films or museums can as they have a period of time / space to take you through it. 

 

4 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Not really. If it acceptable to make a diorama of Nazi soldiers and their weapons, why is it not acceptable to model Nazi railways? 

 

I am just trying to understand the difference. It's question about the philosophy of modelling across different types of modelling.

 

As someone who works in museums, I’d be interested in applying this kind of approach to model railways at exhibitions and think it could be really interesting. However, precisely because it’s not a very common approach at the moment I think it would be better to trial it on layouts whose subject matter is more mundane and that doesn’t look like it’s been designed specifically to be outrageous (so I’m thinking more of something relatively innocuous like a layout showing a Victorian goods yard and canal basin, with the interpretation describing the ways in which goods were transported into and around the country and how that changed during that period, rather than a layout featuring Nazis etc). Also, in museums you usually have galleries that are suitably themed and introduced, and if necessary separated from other parts of the building as appropriate, whereas at a model railway show you’d probably have to have a lot of unrelated layouts displayed together, so there’s very limited opportunity to frame difficult topics in the same way.

 

On a slightly different note, I’d be worried about how much of this sort of content you could put in without it accidentally appearing celebratory, and if a layout of Nazi Germany wasn’t presented and contextualised well some people might even wonder whether the exhibitor intended it as a celebration of the Nazis (even where that isn’t the case). This also applies to some museums with displays about the Nazis and similar (often the kind of places set up by one person or a very small group, specifically to showcase a personal memorabilia collection, though obviously not all such museums are like this). There’s always the risk of a Father Fitzpatrick-style situation developing:

 

"You don't have anything from the Allied side?"

"No, no. That sort of thing wouldn't interest me at all."

 

Perhaps you could have a model railway based on a modern UK heritage railway, with a group of people inappropriately wearing Nazi uniforms - this does occasionally happen, and I tend to think that the same point I made above generally applies.

 

The comparison with other forms of modelling is interesting; there was a previous RMWeb thread discussing controversial layout subjects and one of the things that came up was that model railways are generally moving models - somehow a static diorama feels more appropriate for stuff like this, though I can’t quite explain why. Possibly it’s just the mental image I have of the loco getting stuck on a set of points and having to be poked by the operator, instantly shattering the pathos of the scene.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Not really. If it acceptable to make a diorama of Nazi soldiers and their weapons, why is it not acceptable to model Nazi railways? 

 

I am just trying to understand the difference. It's question about the philosophy of modelling across different types of modelling.

 

 

You seem to have more enthusiasm for this than anyone else.

 

I know static, diorama-szied, models of Nazi railways have been built by military modellers, but am unaware of a working layout set in the period. No matter how well researched, and supported by interpretation, I suspect most people would feel very uncomfortable faced with a group at a show who appeared to be enjoying displaying such a model. I'd apply the same discomfort rules to those who enjoy dressing up inaccurately as German soldiers at preserved railway wartime events.

 

With my mod had on, I'd suggest we let the topic rest. This is a public forum, and this is an area where it would be easy to stray into areas where someone alighting on the discussion without context, could get a very wrong idea about railway modellers.