Peterborough North

[beast66606]

Hi Gilbert,

 

As the speed through the station is low the distant can be provided at less than the distance normally expected, hence it's unusual location. The absence of signals at the platform end is not an issue, provided there are signals protecting any connections, which there are.

 

Welcome to the world of signalling, where everything is standard, apart from nearly everything.

 

PS - I've sent you a message re some photos.

[Mallard60022]

Lovely stock on that Leicester G. I'm really becoming a coach addict. Must be making up for years of not really taking any notice of them until they all started to look alike and then I wanted to catch the last of the 'proper jobs'.

Could Leicester trains have gone on what is now the Nene Valley line to get to Leicester or was their no proper junction with the Midland? My railway geog for that part of the world is hazy and I'm too lazy to dig out my Rail Atlas

By the way, I do hope you are not going to pose any of your 'rail staff' as Tom F has; it really is very rude indeed

P

[great northern]

Lovely stock on that Leicester G. I'm really becoming a coach addict. Must be making up for years of not really taking any notice of them until they all started to look alike and then I wanted to catch the last of the 'proper jobs'.

Could Leicester trains have gone on what is now the Nene Valley line to get to Leicester or was their no proper junction with the Midland? My railway geog for that part of the world is hazy and I'm too lazy to dig out my Rail Atlas

By the way, I do hope you are not going to pose any of your 'rail staff' as Tom F has; it really is very rude indeed

P

The Leicester would run alongside the Down East Coast for about seven miles Phil, then swing away to the left, and via Oakham and Melton Mowbray to join the Midland main line at Syston. My railway staff, and all passengers, will behave with dignity and decorum, like what I do.

[Mallard60022]

Oh, that lovely route of course.

Is that run from PN the one where they used to do the ECML filming of engines at speed? I'd never cottoned on that it was that distance.

Of course at Melton it could have also taken the Nottingham line (Old Dalby T T as now I think) but not if it was a Leicester train of course!

Those days of so many routes; wonderful. Rail travel in those days was such an adventure but sadly I missed out on so much of it due to poverty.

Great news about the dignified and decorous like wot you are G. I wouldn't have thought  you would allow that sort of behaviour on PN. Footplate staff will not be using their shovels (or tenders on those big things) as porta-potties then? Couldn't face the shovel fry up after that thought ..... ; brings a whole new meaning to 'slack pipe' don't it.

P

Edited January 16, 2013 by Mallard60022

[Guest Tom F]

I do hope you are not going to pose any of your 'rail staff' as Tom F has; it really is very rude indeed

P

Not my fault Phil. I haven't got round to building a toilet for them yet!

[great northern]

 

Not my fault Phil. I haven't got round to building a toilet for them yet!

 

 

[great northern]

The young lady didn't like Peterborough much Tom. Much ogling, and shouts of "get 'em off" and other phrases apparently, mainly from some visiting oik from Plymouth.   So, she decided she preferred to be elsewhere, somewhere more genteel, with a better class of person. And she's bringing some friends with her too.

 

[Guest Tom F]

The young lady didn't like Peterborough much Tom. Much ogling, and shouts of "get 'em off" and other phrases apparently, mainly from some visiting oik from Plymouth.   So, she decided she preferred to be elsewhere, somewhere more genteel, with a better class of person. And she's bringing some friends with her too.

 

girls.jpg

York better be prepared.....

[Barry O]

The young lady didn't like Peterborough much Tom. Much ogling, and shouts of "get 'em off" and other phrases apparently, mainly from some visiting oik from Plymouth.   So, she decided she preferred to be elsewhere, somewhere more genteel, with a better class of person. And she's bringing some friends with her too.

 

girls.jpg

well if they had strappy sandals on they would be Geordie girls so York is only half way home - just in time for a pint or six en route!

[jwealleans]

they would be Geordie girls

 

Not enough tattoos.

[LNERGE]

I thought I had worked out the very eccentric signalling arrangements at PN, but while running a train into platform 6 a while ago I became confused once more. Can any signalling experts out there please help solve this? I don't have signal box diagrams at the moment I'm afraid. OK, we have a train running in to platform 6, where it will stop. It has come up from East station, and the last signal controlling it will have been the other side of Crescent Bridge. This is the next signal it comes to.

 

signal.jpg

 

It is a peculiar arrangement. Platform 6 could be used for trains in both directions, so the low slung one on the left is clearly the Up starter. The only other arm on the same post though is a Distant. The Home signal on the other post will be for the Up slow, and the Distant for the Down slow. Next shot shows what happens after the train passes this signal.

 

signal 2.jpg

 

There are no other signals until well after the end of the platform.

 

signal 3.jpg

 

The relevant signal here is the one on the extreme left. We have a Home, which is the starter for Down trains I presume, and the other two arms will control access to New England yard, which is how all the other brackets at this end seem to work. So, nothing to stop a train at the platform, and I don't really understand the Distant at the entry to the platform in those circumstances. I'm missing something, but what? Oh, in case of complaints, I've done a shot of the train as well. It will be off to Leicester shortly.

 

Claud.jpg

One thing to watch out for is the signalling regulations require the route set for 6/7/8 and clear for 1/4 beyond these signals before a train can be accepted onto the excursion line under regulation 4, or, the train will have to be accepted under regulation 5. It can all be a bit complicated. If you want i'll send you a copy of the signalmen's general instructions. I have a 1960 copy that will be almost right for you. The restrictions for accepting on other lines will be equally as complicated, especially as through the main lines the starting signal for PN(4) is also the home signal for SJ(12).

 

[TheLaird]

Fascinating stuff LNERGE, any chance of copying the full SB diagram please?

 

Regards, John E.

[andyrush]

Not enough tattoos.

Or ankle chains.....

[Mallard60022]

I think those ' ladies' have just read LNERGE's signal diagram and are attempting to attract the attention of the signalman, but a York service has got in the way.

By the way they look somewhat 'slapped' and have huge ar*es shoes. The one on the right appears to have lost 'something' important (by her feet).

I could be mistaken though as I was told by an old boy from the outskirts of Nottingham, that in the summer of '58, there was a performing arts group of four girls that used to  (careful.......) entertain passengers whilst the train was standing at Platform (whatever). I think this might have been them captured on Kodachrome by that very gentleman?

Suppose though they could be coach spotters being rude about the MK1 BSO that they have see 36 times that month. Hope they copped the B1 if they liked loco's too?

Quack.

[great northern]

I think those ' ladies' have just read LNERGE's signal diagram and are attempting to attract the attention of the signalman, but a York service has got in the way.

By the way they look somewhat 'slapped' and have huge ar*es shoes. The one on the right appears to have lost 'something' important (by her feet).

I could be mistaken though as I was told by an old boy from the outskirts of Nottingham, that in the summer of '58, there was a performing arts group of four girls that used to  (careful.......) entertain passengers whilst the train was standing at Platform (whatever). I think this might have been them captured on Kodachrome by that very gentleman?

Suppose though they could be coach spotters being rude about the MK1 BSO that they have see 36 times that month. Hope they copped the B1 if they liked loco's too?

Quack.

No, no, they are trying to get the carriage door open. It may take some time.......... That B1 is a V2 by the way. And tattoes are very small in 4mm scale.

[great northern]

One thing to watch out for is the signalling regulations require the route set for 6/7/8 and clear for 1/4 beyond these signals before a train can be accepted onto the excursion line under regulation 4, or, the train will have to be accepted under regulation 5. It can all be a bit complicated. If you want i'll send you a copy of the signalmen's general instructions. I have a 1960 copy that will be almost right for you. The restrictions for accepting on other lines will be equally as complicated, especially as through the main lines the starting signal for PN(4) is also the home signal for SJ(12).

 

Spital Junction(L).JPG

Yes please Richard. The Laird is inciting me to operate the layout properly, and I'm pretty well persuaded, so any information will be very helpful.

[LNERGE]

Spital Junction..

 

[LNERGE]

I've had these a while but not really looked at them... It is interesting to see who could talk to who etc..

 

 

Spital and Crescent are on the same circuit but North is not..

[TheLaird]

Many thanks Richard, do you have a date for this? Any other info on the signalling would be most appreciated.

 

John E.

[LNERGE]

I have most of the Peterborough box diagrams though a few still elude me.. What do you fancy next?

[TheLaird]

The other two boxes for the station would be great!

[LNERGE]

 

Edited January 17, 2013 by LNERGE

[Betty's Husband]

Not enough tattoos.

Definitely not Geordie lasses unless Gilbert is modelling mid January, far too many clothes to be going out wearing any other time of year. Also the coach still had all its windows intact......

[LNER4479]

I thought I had worked out the very eccentric signalling arrangements at PN, but while running a train into platform 6 a while ago I became confused once more. Can any signalling experts out there please help solve this?

 

So, nothing to stop a train at the platform, and I don't really understand the Distant at the entry to the platform in those circumstances.

Although I would hesitate to call myself a signalling expert, may I be permitted to attempt to answer an aspect of your query?

 

There does not need to be a 'stop' signal at the end of the platform to tell a driver to 'stop' at the station to set down and pick up passengers. The action of stopping at a platform is down to the driver, ie the driver will know from his schedule that the train is due to call at the station and will thus stop the train accordingly (irrespective of the aspect of any signal). Once stopped, his signal to restart is provided by the guard, ie the waving of the green flag (or light at night time) to signify that station duties are complete and that it is safe to restart the train (the driver thus looks back to the rear of the train for this 'signal').

 

It is often the case that there is a stop signal at the end of the platform (eg in the southbound direction at Peterborough's excursion platform). Therefore, when the guard waves the green flag, the driver must also check that the signal is clear before setting off. It is likely that the guard would not in any case wave his flag if he could see that the signal was at danger. Modern trains are now fitted with a 'Driver's Reminder Appliance' (DRA) which is intended to protect against a driver taking the 'tip' to start from the guard and setting off without checking the signal itself (the so called 'start away SPAD'). But in other cases, it might be the case that the next signal is out of sight, round a corner in which case the driver sets off and proceeds at caution until he can see its aspect and whether he is clear to continue beyond or not.

 

At busy locations, local arrangements might be that the signalman would not clear the stop signal until he had received an indication that the platform duties were complete and the train was ready to start. Again, on the modern railway many platforms at main stations have a 'Ready to Start' switch (plunger) which the platform staff operate to give this indication to the signalman. But otherwise, the signalman in his box cannot necessarily know what is going on down on the platform; his operation of the signals is all about telling the driver that he has permission to proceed into the next signalling 'block' section (or not).

 

The distant at the entrance to the platform is simply giving the driver advanced warning of what the aspect of the Peterborough North signal is going to be (ie the one beyond the end of the platform in your third photo); being a distant he is of course entitled to pass it whatever its aspect. I would guess that this was used more for a train that was passing straight through without stopping at the excursion platform.

 

As I don't regard myself as an expert per se, let me end with some caveats. It may well be that local arrangements would vary the operational procedures or even the meaning of the signals (which is why driver's 'route knowledge' was - and is - such an important part of the working of the railway). If this was the case at Peterborough then I may well have told you something wrong, in which case others please feel free to jump on me (I suspect the likes of Beast66606 and LNERGE know a lot more about pure signalling than me!). Finally, I think I've answered the question you asked but if I have inadvertantly misconstrued or told you lots of things that you already know then I apologise (and will probably refrain from trying to answer a signalling question ever again)!

Edited January 18, 2013 by LNER4479

[TheLaird]

Many thanks to LNERGE for the SB diagrams, are they all of the same period?? Do you have rough dates?