Peterborough North

[great northern]

18 minutes ago, davidw said:

Hi Gilbert, Your comment on Britannia's intrigued me. I've a pair 70008 and 70041. Were they in service  on the services you describe by 1960? I thought they were. If not they'll be ebayed to make room for V2s

Regular workings didn't happen until 1961, which is when Immingham got its allocation on transfer from the GE. Trains Illustrated October 1958 however tells us that on 28th August 70041 worked into KX with the Up Car Sleeper, and that two days later it was seen at Darlington on the 1008 Saturday KX- Glasgow. That's the point I was making above, I could run 70041, or 70003/37, all of which are recorded on the ECML that month. However, those were fleeting visits, and they probably hadn't been on the ECML for quite a while before that, and wouldn't have been seen again for a long time after.

[davidw]

4 minutes ago, great northern said:

Regular workings didn't happen until 1961, which is when Immingham got its allocation on transfer from the GE. Trains Illustrated October 1958 however tells us that on 28th August 70041 worked into KX with the Up Car Sleeper, and that two days later it was seen at Darlington on the 1008 Saturday KX- Glasgow. That's the point I was making above, I could run 70041, or 70003/37, all of which are recorded on the ECML that month. However, those were fleeting visits, and they probably hadn't been on the ECML for quite a while before that, and wouldn't have been seen again for a long time after.

Thanks Gilbert. I had wondered. They're cracking models but I wonder if I'll actually use them. Particularly 70008 in the light of your comment. Looks like I might be shifting them. 

[great northern]

The arrival of the 1040 KX=Grantham is next. KX A3 Melton will now have a nice rest at Platform 6.

 

 

Lots of watery and horizontal sunlight made this one difficult to deal with. At least I avoided the pole sticking out of the chimney.

[great northern]

1.06pm, and yet another named train runs through on the Up. The Yorkshire Pullman, no less, and Copley Hill's Bois Roussel is about to plunge its posh diners into the gloom and fumes under the roof.

 

 

[drmditch]

13 minutes ago, great northern said:

1.06pm, and yet another named train runs through on the Up. The Yorkshire Pullman, no less, and Copley Hill's Bois Roussel is about to plunge its posh diners into the gloom and fumes under the roof.

 

 

 

 

Does the acronym 'posh' really apply to the ECML?

Since the best views (well, north of York anyway) are all to the east, shouldn't it be 'SDPU'

(Starboard Down Port Up)

 

Didn't the major trains from KX have their compartments on the East side?

[60027Merlin]

On 23/02/2022 at 08:59, Oldddudders said:

  On 23/02/2022 at 08:55, great northern said:

There may, or may not, be a list somewhere, but I cannot divulge any information which might be on it, or not, should that be the case. Without Prejudice.

Once a lawyer.

 

Many years ago at a business lunch the conversation at my table got round to a legal point concerning a fairly involved property/financial transaction. When one of my colleagues asked one of the lawyers present as to the definitive answer the reply was that if you asked a dozen lawyers the same question in identical circumstances you would get 18 different replies.

 

Eric

 

[great northern]

1 minute ago, 60027Merlin said:

 

Many years ago at a business lunch the conversation at my table got round to a legal point concerning a fairly involved property/financial transaction. When one of my colleagues asked one of the lawyers present as to the definitive answer the reply was that if you asked a dozen lawyers the same question in identical circumstances you would get 18 different replies.

 

Eric

 

Only 18?  Obviously didn't offer them enough money.

[jazzer]

4 hours ago, 60027Merlin said:

 

Many years ago at a business lunch the conversation at my table got round to a legal point concerning a fairly involved property/financial transaction. When one of my colleagues asked one of the lawyers present as to the definitive answer the reply was that if you asked a dozen lawyers the same question in identical circumstances you would get 18 different replies.

 

Eric

 

Hence the old lawyers joke that the main civil courts in the Strand are officially known as the Royal Courts Of Justice but Lawyers call them the Law Courts. The reason is if you go there you’ll definitely get law, but you might not get justice !

[great northern]

5 minutes ago, jazzer said:

Hence the old lawyers joke that the main civil courts in the Strand are officially known as the Royal Courts Of Justice but Lawyers call them the Law Courts. The reason is if you go there you’ll definitely get law, but you might not get justice !

OK, we are an easy target, but I do like to think that we are a lot closer to delivering justice in this country than in the majority of others. Over a forty something year career I saw some bad decisions, and a few diabolical ones, but in the majority of cases, the right result occurred. Our worst trait was to wrap things up in convoluted arguments that our clients didn't understand, but as with any profession, you need to understand the process in order to see how complex things can sometimes be. Sorry, been retired for years, but sometimes I feel the need to defend the job I did and loved for so long.

[jazzer]

6 minutes ago, great northern said:

OK, we are an easy target, but I do like to think that we are a lot closer to delivering justice in this country than in the majority of others. Over a forty something year career I saw some bad decisions, and a few diabolical ones, but in the majority of cases, the right result occurred. Our worst trait was to wrap things up in convoluted arguments that our clients didn't understand, but as with any profession, you need to understand the process in order to see how complex things can sometimes be. Sorry, been retired for years, but sometimes I feel the need to defend the job I did and loved for so long.

Well , I would agree we deliver better Justice in this country than most, perhaps all others but from experience I think lawyers and judges are like most other professions in that there are some who are absolutely on top of the job but others who, frankly are so hopeless they shouldn’t be there, some are incredibly polite and understanding while a few others seem to go out their way to be rude.

I am happier in the world of toy trains,

[great northern]

Back to trains. The Grantham is still having a rest.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, jazzer said:

Well , I would agree we deliver better Justice in this country than most, perhaps all others but from experience I think lawyers and judges are like most other professions in that there are some who are absolutely on top of the job but others who, frankly are so hopeless they shouldn’t be there, some are incredibly polite and understanding while a few others seem to go out their way to be rude.

I am happier in the world of toy trains,

But it's just the same here too, isn't it (present company excepted)?

[great northern]

Attention now switches back to the Pullman, but not for long as far as the spotters are concerned. Once they can see that it is Boys Rustle again, not Bonnie Dundee or North British, they will go back to hoping for a cop next time. We were largely ungrateful little beasts, but of course we didn't know that it would all very quickly come to an end.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, great northern said:

Attention now switches back to the Pullman, but not for long as far as the spotters are concerned. Once they can see that it is Boys Rustle again, not Bonnie Dundee or North British, they will go back to hoping for a cop next time. We were largely ungrateful little beasts, but of course we didn't know that it would all very quickly come to an end.

 

 

 

iI didn’t come to an end. While it was sad to see the Pacifics go they were replaced by the greatest locomotives ever to grace this planet. The end was 2nd Jan 1982.

[great northern]

We have another man on Platform 3, and he waited a little longer and got this view.

 

 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

iI didn’t come to an end. While it was sad to see the Pacifics go they were replaced by the greatest locomotives ever to grace this planet. The end was 2nd Jan 1982.

But the age of steam did, Andy. The Deltics were also special, I agree, but there wasn't over a century of history involved with them.

[great northern]

Very soon afterwards, our third Pullman appears, the Queen of Scots is another Copley Hill duty, and Osprey is today's engine.

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert and everyone

 

Forgive me if you have discussed the matter before, but may I ask about a couple of trains that I don't recall seeing on your layout?

 

Do you model what was the 7.00am Up from Peterborough and 7.25pm Down from King's Cross? Both were (always?) A3-hauled and were booked for (mainly) Mk1 non-gangwayed stock.

 

My winter 1960/61 CWN shows:

 

7.00am Up (SX): S CL BS SLO CL CL BS SLO

 

The 7.25pm Down is that train in reverse order but without the CL and S. A Vanfit was booked Tuesdays Only from St Albans to Peterborough North (noted in the CWN as Salvation Army News. No doubt printed at what was their printing works there, which traded as Campfield Press).

 

There is a fleeting shot of the Up train in the 1960s at about 4mins 30secs in the video below.

 

Brian

  

 

[great northern]

23 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Gilbert and everyone

 

Forgive me if you have discussed the matter before, but may I ask about a couple of trains that I don't recall seeing on your layout?

 

Do you model what was the 7.00am Up from Peterborough and 7.25pm Down from King's Cross? Both were (always?) A3-hauled and were booked for (mainly) Mk1 non-gangwayed stock.

 

My winter 1960/61 CWN shows:

 

7.00am Up (SX): S CL BS SLO CL CL BS SLO

 

The 7.25pm Down is that train in reverse order but without the CL and S. A Vanfit was booked Tuesdays Only from St Albans to Peterborough North (noted in the CWN as Salvation Army News. No doubt printed at what was their printing works there, which traded as Campfield Press).

 

There is a fleeting shot of the Up train in the 1960s at about 4mins 30secs in the video below.

 

Brian

  

 

I run both Brian, but the times changed a bit between 1958 and 60/61. The Up train left at 7.25am in 58, and was formed of a steel artic five set. The Down train was 7.21pm off KX, and again had a five set plus two or three SO or SK on the rear. The HMRS Journal survey confirms almost exactly what the CWN says. In fact the CWN shows only one non corridor coach booked on the GN or GE trains through North, though there were some on the Midland.

 

The 7.25 Up was mainly V2 hauled on the week of the HMRS survey, but the 7.21 Down regularly had Pacifics, including an A4. Why these would revert to non corridor stock by 1960 I do not know.

[great northern]

A close up of the powerful front end of an A1, while a B1 waits to take the 1.12 stopping service to London.

 

 

[great northern]

We've had a couple of lovely days here, and another forecast today too, so the sequence has leapt forward. a,d the image bank is replenished. Thus this morning you get two photos of Osprey, rather than the short rations to which you have become accustomed.

 

 

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert

 

I have just had a look at my copy of the HMRS Journal...

 

It looks like there were some changes to the workings after 1958 and what was the 7.25am from Huntingdon seems to have 'almost become' the 7.00am from Peterborough.

 

One thing has always worried me about the Journal article.

 

The author states that the 4.06pm Hitchin to Sandy was (quote): " ... covered with one of the articulated four-car inner suburban sets ...".

 

I spoke with David Percival about this some years ago and he had heard of only one occasion of a half set being moved, and that was an 'emergency' in a set without passengers. 

 

Does anyone know if sets were regularly 'split' as the author suggests? Does anyone know 'LA Smith'?

 

I think I have posed this question before it but it's worth repeating to see if anyone has any new info.

 

Brian

[31A]

7 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Gilbert

 

I have just had a look at my copy of the HMRS Journal...

 

It looks like there were some changes to the workings after 1958 and what was the 7.25am from Huntingdon seems to have 'almost become' the 7.00am from Peterborough.

 

One thing has always worried me about the Journal article.

 

The author states that the 4.06pm Hitchin to Sandy was (quote): " ... covered with one of the articulated four-car inner suburban sets ...".

 

I spoke with David Percival about this some years ago and he had heard of only one occasion of a half set being moved, and that was an 'emergency' in a set without passengers. 

 

Does anyone know if sets were regularly 'split' as the author suggests? Does anyone know 'LA Smith'?

 

I think I have posed this question before it but it's worth repeating to see if anyone has any new info.

 

Brian

 

I read that article as well and took it as being a mistake, or at least giving a misleading impression.  I presume what was meant by "Articulated four-car inner suburban set" was what enthusiasts know as a "Quad Art Set" (possibly referred to as such in the original notes), but a single Quad Art set was in fact a set of eight coaches articulated as two four car halves.

 

As per David Percival, they were not split into four car sections in everyday use.  In fact the buffers and couplings between the two halves were not of the normal type and could not be used to couple to a locomotive so it wasn't possible to run them as four car trains.  The preserved half set on the North Norfolk Railway has had conventional buffers and coupling fitted to what was originally its 'inner' end, but in BR days if half a set had to be moved e.g. for repairs it was necessary to make some kind of temporary arrangement.    Furthermore each eight car set had a "Set Number" painted on the outer ends, which was the same on either end and referred to the complete eight car set.

 

The situation was different on the Liverpool Street lines where the five car articulated sets had conventional couplings on either end and could be used independently off peak or combined to make a ten car set for the rush hours.

 

I'm therefore confident that what the HMRS Journal article referred to as an "Articulated four-car inner suburban set" would actually have been an eight car train!

 

Bear in mind also that the individual coach lengths were shorted than usual and a full eight car Quad Art set was the same length as the 5-car sets of BR 57' non gangwayed stock that replaced them, the train length being constrained by the platform lengths in the Widened Lines station at Moorgate.  The GNR referred to the Quad Art sets as "Bogie Local Sets".

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Steve

 

In both the text and the tables, the author specifically refers to 4 cars.

 

The GE section had specific 4-car sets designed to run as fours.

 

Brian

[great northern]

Just now, BMacdermott said:

Hello Steve

 

In both the text and the tables, the author specifically refers to 4 cars.

 

The GE section had specific 4-car sets designed to run as fours.

 

Brian

Over the years I have found a number of errors in that article, not surprising as it seems largely to be based on guard's logs rather than personal observation. Clerical errors were bound to creep in, but overall I've found it to be extremely useful.

 

By the way, I've just sent you a PM, which i mention only because I don't seem to be getting any e-mail notifications at the moment.