How do I find out how much space I need for OO gauge layout of Salisbury.

[The Johnster]

When I win the lottery, I will rebuild Cwmdimbath (or rather, have it professionally rebuilt) to handle 30-wagon coal trains and to include a length of plain branch line of about half a mile, with gradients, contained in a building or room with stepped up flooring.  Nothing more ambitious in terms of operation, as I feel that I have got that balance about right in terms of my ability to operate realistically in the way that I want (to the 1955 Rule Book as far as is practicable and at scale speeds with time allowed for operations like brake continuity tests and shunters walking to different locations). 

 

I feel that a project like Salisbury is too much for a single person to operate, and probably to build to any sort of scale pretensions if the fundamentals of the working of the place are to be represented.  By that I mean the through Exeter traffic (easy, it comes in, stops, and goes out), the terminating stoppers (have to run around), the Eastleigh/Soton demus, the Cardiff/Bristol-Portsmouth/Brightons (which have to cross the layout at the eastern end of the station), and at least a representation of the goods and loco facilities.  It would need a very big fiddle yard, actually, four of them, to contain a representative selection of stock.

 

For the mid-60s we are talking Bullied MN, WC/BB, Q1, BR standard 5MT & 4MT 4-6-0s both WR and SR versions, 4MT 2-6-0s, S15, N15, 700 Black Motor, GW Castle, Hall, Grange, 43xx, 28xx, 72xx, and Warship, Class 33, Hymek, 2H demus, 119, 120, and 123 dmus.  The dmus are not available RTR.  Rolling stock would be a massive variety.

 

It would be possible as a co-ordinated group project like some of Pete Waterman's layouts, but the space, resources, and manpower needed for this would be the defining factor.  My experience of relying on other people over the sort of timeframe building this would take suggests that you need a steady supply of new blood to keep it going; other people tend to have life unavoidably happening to them (hell is other people).  Otherwise, it's over-ambitious or (to my mind) oversimplified.  But we don't yet know the period Peak is thinking of or the space he has available, and from the question it sounds as if the space question is not yet determined.

 

[Peak]

8 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Alternatively @Peak, tell us how much space you have, and we can tell you what scale you need. 

30' x 26'

[Philou]

Go for it! BUT, do you have the space, time and money to see it through? I'm doing presently my one and only layout and for me it's big, but nowhere near as big as Pete Waterman's latest. I have a space of about 8.2m x 6.4m within which to build it. I'm into year three - well nearly four - started during Covid. One year ago, after building the room first, I started doing the boards and whilst they're done, I haven't yet started any track laying whatsoever. It takes FOREVER! I just hope that my biological clock isn't going to time me out first.

 

The upside is that I can have not one but two stations at prototypical lengths (there is a third one but that's my Rule 1 station). Both stations can accommodate full sized HSTs, but the one does have the last two coaches outside of the platforms - as per the prototype having grandfather rights.

 

You will need somewhere to park your stock, otherwise it'll be lift-on, lift-off with all the problems that follow.

 

Do think it through before you press the commit button!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited March 20 by Philou
Rubbish granma

[Peak]

43 minutes ago, Philou said:

Go for it! BUT, do you have the space, time and money to see it through? I'm doing presently my one and only layout and for me it's big, but nowhere near as big as Pete Waterman's latest. I have a space of about 8.2m x 6.4m within which to build it. I'm into year three - well nearly four - started during Covid. One year ago, after building the room first, I started doing the boards and whilst they're done, I haven't yet started any track laying whatsoever. It takes FOREVER! I just hope that my biological clock isn't going to time me out first.

 

The upside is that I can have not one but two stations at prototypical lengths (there is a third one but that's my Rule 1 station). Both stations can accommodate full sized HSTs, but the one does have the last two coaches outside of the platforms - as per the prototype having grandfather rights.

 

You will need somewhere to park your stock, otherwise it'll be lift-on, lift-off with all the problems that follow.

 

Do think it through before you press the commit button!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

I will mark up platforms and buildings on the floor before starting to construct the layout.

[Oldddudders]

40 minutes ago, Peak said:

30' x 26'

A decent size, but still needing massive selective compression for all but the most modest of prototypes. 

 

I think someone mentioned earlier that you need to think carefully about access to build the layout and service it in use. This is about how far you can reach across to work on laying track, creating scenery etc. It varies a little according to operator-height - 6 footers reach further than shorter people - but also according to how high the baseboard surface is from the floor. If you have access from both sides, so a 3 foot reach either side, you might just be able to use boards 6 feet wide, but are you confident you can build and maintain at that reach? Experiment. 

[Philou]

To add to my earlier comment, my boards are 900mm (a nadge under 3') and without the aid of a hop-up, I cannot reach the outer edge. I've even made the boards in the corners curved so to maintain a maximum stretch of 900mm. The fiddle yard is wider but as it's on a peninsula, it'll be accessible from both sides.

 

You might want to have a look at this layout (not mine) being constructed in an ex-chapel. It's big and yet despite the size of the building, they cannot get it all in - just to give some idea of the dimensions needed:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/128568-hills-of-the-north-the-last-great-project/page/

 

If you want to plough through 42 pages to see where I'm at, here's mine:

 

 

Good luck in whatever you decide to do - @Harlequin and others of the RMWeb cognoscenti will no doubt be able to give you helpful advice.

 

Philip

[Harlequin]

53 minutes ago, Peak said:

I will mark up platforms and buildings on the floor before starting to construct the layout.

 

Why are you not going to plan the layout on paper or on a computer first?

 

[Peak]

20 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Why are you not going to plan the layout on paper or on a computer first?

 

I forgot about that. I have never made a layout before.

[Harlequin]

8 minutes ago, Peak said:

I forgot about that. I have never made a layout before.

It would be a good idea to do some research about layout design, then. There are hundreds of books and magazine articles on the subject.

 

There's a special area of the forum for layout design here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/forum/66-layout-track-design/

 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Peak said:

30' x 26'

You can do a lot of things with that size of availability; very nice indeed. What scale would you envisage? If you have worked a layout before, then which ones do you have most recall with? 

Personally, I have 2 or 3 locations which I know to the inch in 00, but my operating desires will most probably lean towards a roundy-roundy, because I like to sit & watch the trains go by. Apparently, it's very theraputic for a nutter like me. No stations, but a bit of working, such as a pair of loops in an artistic setting. 

 

Bliss; pure bliss.

[Innerhome]

You might find it helpful to build a small station neighbouring Salisbury - which you can later incorporate into the main layout. This will give you a feel of the amount of time/cost everything takes: provide a learning opportunity : and reduce the risk of you starting a major project then getting fed up and abandoning it as everything takes so long (something I've been very guilty of). In terms of Salisbury - I'd assume you'd use two of your walls for station/yards as Salisbury is almost a right angle: small station on the third wall and fiddleyards on the fourth.   

[Dagworth]

1 hour ago, Peak said:

I forgot about that. I have never made a layout before.

In which case I would seriously advise starting with something a LOT smaller, a little layout that you can learn the skills of woodwork, track laying, ballasting, wiring, scenics, all the things that go together to build a layout. Even just an 8ftx4ft single board with a couple of ovals and some sidings, something to play trains on!

 

The reason I suggest this is that if you've not built a layout before then something very large and ambitious has a good chance of being too much, and you may find you've bitten off more than you can chew and you may get ten percent of the way into it and lose the motivation as it's such a long journey. It also gives you a good chance to explore what parts of model railways really appeal, are you a layout builder, an operator, a wiring and electrics enthusiast, a main line driver, a shunter, a signaller?

 

For layout planning you really can't beat trying things out on a computer first before you commit to timber and track, it's well worth the small (relatively) amount of time it takes to learn your way around one of the computer layout planning programmes. There are several free programmes out there, Ravensclyffe was planned on XtrackCAD https://sourceforge.net/projects/xtrkcad-fork/

 

It may also be worth investigating whether there are any model railway clubs where you are, they can be great places to learn the basic skills you will need.

 

Good Luck!

 

Andi

[johnofwessex]

On 18/03/2024 at 11:33, KeithMacdonald said:

 

It's big. Very big.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.3&lat=51.07190&lon=-1.80624&layers=178&b=1&o=100

 

 

Am I right in saying that the through platforms are offset and that at some stage a new station was built?

[Fishoutofwater]

13 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Am I right in saying that the through platforms are offset and that at some stage a new station was built?

That map is from about 1850. 

Major rebuild around 1903 and many later changes.

Suggest searching nls for a large scale map of the era you wish to model.

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, Peak said:

I have never made a layout before.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

5 minutes ago, Fishoutofwater said:

That map is from about 1850. 

Major rebuild around 1903 and many later changes.

Suggest searching nls for a large scale map of the era you wish to model.

 

Agreed. Plus a design decision whether to model it as a joint GWR & Southern location, or just Southern / BR(S)

 

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Dagworth said:

In which case I would seriously advise starting with something a LOT smaller,

Absolutely agree with every single word of Andy's (Dagworth) post.

We all have dreams of large, instant and effortless layouts when just setting out in the hobby. Then reality soon strikes!!

As well as questions of space & cost, a more fundamental question is that of time. Not just time to build a magnum opus - when, or more likely IF, it got completed, how much time would you have for maintenance? How much time to spend operating it? Simply put, if you only have a few hours at the weekend to operate a layout, then why bother building a big one? These questions are just the start. There are plenty more that need answering, well before anything like track planning, or actual construction starts.

[johnofwessex]

Penhelig anyone?

[johnofwessex]

Seriously you could do a lot worse than Midford, small goods yard, single to double track and the potential to run a bloody great pacific hauled 12 coach express if you feel the mood

[The Johnster]

General advice FWIW.  Firstly determine the space you have available, then spend some time thinking about what you want from the layout (scenery, fast trains, shunting, lots of buildings, period modelled, geographic location), then decide on some dimensions; length of train, minimum curve radius, clearances at converging tracks and headshunts.  
 

This will give you the basic data needed for planning.  Then decide if the layout is permanent or needs to be put away after use, in which case obviously the smaller and lighter the better.  Decide on a height for the baseboards, and work to the principle that anything more than two feet from the edge is out of reach.  Then plan.  
 

Then go up the pub to drown the effect of the reality bomb that just hit you, and accept that you probably cannot realistically achieve the plan, and almost certainly not make a model of Salisbury.  Start again; the more time and effort you put into planning at this stage the less money, time, and effort you will waste when you come to build the layout.  Make the DC/DCC decision before you start.  
 

Keep it simple and straightforward initially, and consider the idea of baseboards as shelves around the walls of the layout room rather than a table in the centre.  Design with spare room on the baseboards, and don’t crowd them or squeeze things in.  There are some very good layout plans available on this site that may well suit your needs. 
 

30’x26’ is pretty big (what sort of premised is that, just out of interest), but you would IMHO be better advised to have a lot of run of plain track in open country scenery than filling it with complexity and features that will make it difficult to operate and to keep in working order.  One station, a goods yard, possibly a loco shed, then a factory/dairy/harbour/quarry/mine to generate traffic, personally I’d go for single track with passing places because it’s more interesting to operate, and if we assume from Salisbury that you have LSWR leanings, plenty prototype west of Halwill!  Callington comes to mind; there was a dairy there, wasn’t there?  Or how about Padstow, or Ilfracombe, if you want pacifics and a terminus.   
 

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

10 hours ago, Peak said:

30' x 26'

 

TheQ reckons you'd need 19m in OO 

That's 1444m in real life

Or 4873.5 feet

 

4873.5 feet/30 feet = a scale of 1:162.45

 

Which is close to US/European N-scale of 1:160. But you'd have to build all the rolling stock yourself as, as far as I know, none is made in that scale for GB railways.

 

UK N-scale is 1:148, so it would be too big.

 

Of course, you could turn the layout on to the diagonal of the room, which would give you a max length of 39' 8" which would be just about do-able in UK N, and even make it a triangular roundy-round with fiddle yards next to the wall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by BachelorBoy
typos

[Oldddudders]

13 hours ago, Peak said:

I forgot about that. I have never made a layout before.

Seriously? Some of us have been building layouts for more than 60 years and are still learning how to make them better, using modern materials and techniques to finer scales. Andi and others are quite right - build something small and manageable and you might see fruition in a couple of years - which will be a thrill in itself, and give you confidence in taking on the big one. 

 

There used to be a chap on RMweb who was building a model of Birmingham New Street in 4mm. He had all the skills, and structures and such that he turned out were first rate. But he freely admitted that it might never be finished, although that didn't dismay him because to him the construction phase was an end and a joy in itself. I imagine you look forward to your finished model, with trains running. You have a very, very long time to wait, and I hope your mojo doesn't head elsewhere in the meantime.

[tomparryharry]

13 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

Aha! Drebben Junction!

[Philou]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I hope your mojo doesn't head elsewhere in the meantime

 

Not only that, @Oldddudders, but real life gets in the way too! Yesterday was going to be some retaining wall work, but it ended up as being pressure-washing our decking yesterday morning, followed by a coup de grace in the afternoon. This morning, more pressure washing, though I might get to do a modelling afternoon. Tomorrow is out in the woods splitting logs and piling up ready for stockpiling as winter fuel for years 2024 AND 2025!

 

 

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

 

Not only that, @Oldddudders, but real life gets in the way too!

 

 

Agreed. I had planned yesterday evening to finish wiring up my new single slip, but ended up looking for a new fridge as the old one went bang yesterday afternoon.

 

And i'll echo the other comments about tackling such a big project...... I've been modelling for a good 30 years or so, and definitely still have lots to learn, and such a big layout project would scare me to death. Whilst we all dream of having such a space, I very much doubt I would want to fill it completely with layout...... It'd be great to have space for a decent sized workbench, airbrush booth, proper storage for all those unbuilt kits (we all have that stash waiting to be built).....