What do you wish you knew about DCC or think others should know?

[DCB]

On 21/04/2024 at 09:21, Nigelcliffe said:

 

If you've got a lot of locos,  you either had deep pockets, or the person you inherited them from had deep pockets.....   

 

Most people have far too many locos.  One regularly hears of people with 50 or 100 locos.  How many of them actually get run ?  How often ?    There's nothing wrong with a hobby of "collecting", but don't use the shelf-collection to put down someone else' interest in running.   

Or you have been collecting and building locos for 60 years.  Quite a few of mine alternate between display cabinet and layout,  but last  count there were 60 on the layout, many Hornby Dublo and over 60 years old doing the  heavy  work which 2000  era Horny can't take on so just look pretty.   Though to be fair K's kit built locos are gradually replacing more recent  iterations. so I don't have the time to convert locos to DCC  if I actually want to have time to run trains .

[kevinlms]

On 22/04/2024 at 00:17, GrumpyPenguin said:

& that is the perfect time to have a "cull" of locomotives you no longer/rarely use & us ethe proceeds to pay for DCC.

I know someone who has a very large collection of locomotives and of course uses that as an excuse for no DCC and that he doesn't know how to wire it up.

Fact is he spent a lot of money on DC controllers and loads of money on switches etc, on his new large layout.

He didn't know how to wire that either, so he needed lots of help from others to wire it for him - no he did virtually no work on it himself, even though several tried to get him to assist, at the very minimum.

[Free At Last]

A friend of mine converted to dcc a few years ago because of sound. He has over twenty locos with sound all on address 03. He has a large double track fully scened oval on which he runs two double headed trains on each circuit and when one catches up with the other he just holds it back with his hands.

Some have the whistle on F2 and some the brake.
The wheels on the double headers turn at different rates with different levels of acceleration and deceleration.
It doesn't concern him.
Who said dcc is complicated.

[rogerzilla]

I have standardised my DCC stuff on Bachmann (Zimo) decoders with brake function, generally on F2 but on F7 where F2 is used for some kind of lighting control (Dapol are fond of this).  The exception is the class 03 but you don't really want much momentum in a shunter.

Edited April 27 by rogerzilla

[Pete the Elaner]

On 19/04/2024 at 13:07, Train_Dude said:

Another thing I have realized with DCC is if you want sound in your locos you are better off buying them with sound in to begin with as that will probably save you about £20-£30 a loco in the long run.

 

I don't think this is usually a good idea. Decoders are different & buying DCC fitted includes the manufacturer's choice of decoder, which can be an unknown (my first fitted loco contained Hornby's original bad decoder which had been discontinued several years previous). Bachmann have changed suppliers & their decoders have been inconsistent as a result. It has not always been possible to simply re-blow these either.
The same is true of sound. Manufacturer's have made some poor choices within their sound projects which don't work as well as those from dedicated sound vendors like Legomanbiffo, Paul Chetter or YouChoos.

[WIMorrison]

@Pete the Elaner Fully agree with you, plus if you buy an OEM decoder from Zimo or ESU then they have large libraries of sound files that can be downloaded, some free but mostly paid for the good projects. Plus with the right command station you are able to load the sound projects on your blank decoders yourself ;)

 

[Geep7]

One piece of advice i've learnt over the years. If you're taking a DCC layout to an exhibition, do not leave your rolling stock overnight in the car, if the temp is going to fall below or near freezing, as when you bring them back into the ambient temperature of an exhibition hall the chips don't like it.

[WIMorrison]

My shed regularly falls to zero (and below) over the winter and I have to leave the stock in the car overnight prior to exhibitions yet nothing has ever suffered from the temperature.

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 01/05/2024 at 17:35, Geep7 said:

…… if the temp is going to fall below or near freezing, as when you bring them back into the ambient temperature of an exhibition hall the chips don't like it.

Nothing worst than cold chips….

 

 

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[F-UnitMad]

One thing I do wish I'd known about DCC - what incredible witchcraft is needed to successfully speed match locos. The only way I've managed it is with identical locos by a manfacturer, fitted with identical decoders with identical CV settings.

As for locos from different makers, or fitted with different chips, especially trying to match sound & non-sound locos - that remains utterly beyond me. Which can be quite irritating, modelling American trains.

It's not the consisting together, I can do that easy enough - it's getting locos to perform well together - speed matching - that is the witchcraft.

[BoD]

9 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

The only way I've managed it is with identical locos by a manfacturer, fitted with identical decoders with identical CV settings.

… and even then it’s not guaranteed.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

… and even then it’s not guaranteed.

Agreed - my four identical locos are matched very closely, but still not absolutely 100% matched. If I consist them all together, but uncoupled & set an inch or so apart from each other, it's er, "interesting" to see the gaps slowly open or close as they move along. 🙄🤦‍♂️😂

[peterfgf]

I have successfully run two Bachmann 4CEPs together, both fitted with ESU Lokpilot Standard decoders set to the same address.  I think I was probably lucky (I would probably use Lenz Silver or Zimo decoders now).

Peterfgf

[Welly]

I wish the RTR manufacturers tell us how much space is available for the decoders in their "DCC Ready" locomotives AND the decoder makers tell us the dimensions of their products!

 

I have just tried to fit a Rails 21 pin decoder to a Hornby 87 and the decoder is too wide! I've had to fit a Hattons 21 pin decoder instead.

[WIMorrison]

Many manufacturers do provide the detailed specifications for the decoders, certainly the OEM do, though I agree that most rebadged seller don’t - probably because you could then find out the OEM of the rebadged decoder.

 

NMRA also provide size guidelines for many decoders.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Welly said:

I wish the RTR manufacturers tell us how much space is available for the decoders in their "DCC Ready" locomotives AND the decoder makers tell us the dimensions of their products!

 

I have just tried to fit a Rails 21 pin decoder to a Hornby 87 and the decoder is too wide! I've had to fit a Hattons 21 pin decoder instead.

 
The PluX and Next18 interface standards should provide the certainty that matching decoders will fit locos with the matching interface.

A key part of their interface specifications, is the maximum dimensions of the decoder and provision of space to accommodate the decoders in models fitted with matching interfaces.

 

Then comes along a decoder manufacturer with a decoder that purports to be Next18, but fails to comply with the most important criteria for that format.

Hornby’s so called Next18 version of their HM7000 series.

 

 

.

[ATME]

Yes, it can be 2 wires... up to a point (no pun intended). The more I learn, the more I realise I have don't know about DCC. Finding definitive answers (even here) is difficult as everyone believes their way of doing things is right - witness the occasional heated discussion. 

There really does need to be a dummies guide to CV editing which could be helped by manufacturers testing their locos with different decoders and recommending cv settings for each. Don't get me started on function mapping which seems to be desirable knowledge considering the lack of standards for what are latching and non latching functions on different controllers. 

We are not all blessed with the ability to understand binary or hexadecimal logic. Standardisation for binary counting is not as widespread as one might think for CVs and functions. DCC is not plug and play if you want the best performance from your locos. DCC gives wonderful opportunities for those who can learn binary commands/logic.

So far the biggest help has been and wish I had known about them from the start;-

2mm Scale Assoc. CV29 calculator.

Brian Lambert.co.uk

DCC Wiki

 

What I would like;-

A list of every CV and what changes to the value might do to performance and function. From what I understand this might be impossible unless a list is prepared for each loco with each decoder on the market?

The NMRA (or whoever) to clamp down on standardisation, awarding a NMRA endorsment to manufacturers who comply, but allow and publish innovations.

An idiots guide to function mapping.

 

[F-UnitMad]

12 minutes ago, ATME said:

So far the biggest help has been and wish I had known about them from the start;-

2mm Scale Assoc. CV29 calculator.

That's one thing where the NCE Powercab helps massively - using the Programing Track function it breaks CV29 down in to seperate sections, so difficult calculations aren't needed.

I agree that DCC is certainly a steep learning curve, especially at first.

I've found that Zimo decoders have required the least 'tweaking' to get good motor performances.

[WIMorrison]

31 minutes ago, ATME said:

What I would like;-

A list of every CV and what changes to the value might do to performance and function. From what I understand this might be impossible unless a list is prepared for each loco with each decoder on the market?

The NMRA (or whoever) to clamp down on standardisation, awarding a NMRA endorsment to manufacturers who comply, but allow and publish innovations.

An idiots guide to function mapping.

I fear that if you are waiting for someone to create your desires then you need to prepare for an extremely long wait.

 

NMRA do award a compliance statement for people who meet the standard, but the standard only mandates 3 CVs (CV,1, 7 and 8) with CV29 mandated if any of the functionality supported by it is used. There are then 3 recommended CVs (2,3,4 and 12). All of the rest are optional and many CV are manufacturer specific meaning that they do whatever the OEM wants them to do.

 

Your other issue with a set of CV values for every decoder in every loco is that my requirements will be totally different from your requirements, so whose requirements should be documented - and who is going to pay for this massive task?

[ATME]

23 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I fear that if you are waiting for someone to create your desires then you need to prepare for an extremely long wait.

 

Your other issue with a set of CV values for every decoder in every loco is that my requirements will be totally different from your requirements, so whose requirements should be documented - and who is going to pay for this massive task?

Imagine this - manufacturer makes new loco, sticks half a dozen most popular decoders in it (one at a time 😄) and suggests best CV settings for each decoder. It's a starting point? If they then state what the effect of altering each CV up or down will be, it would make achieving individual requirements easier. This last sentence is the big thing for me that would make setting up a loco easier. 

Also, it would ensure they realised how difficult it is to fit some decoders in their loco.

Edited Thursday at 20:53 by ATME

[ATME]

43 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

I agree that DCC is certainly a steep learning curve, especially at first.

I've found that Zimo decoders have required the least 'tweaking' to get good motor performances.

Yes. but the industry needs to lessen the slope of the learning curve?

In my experience, Zimo are good in bogie locos, but not steam locos?? ... No, I don't know either.

[WIMorrison]

25 minutes ago, ATME said:

Imagine this - manufacturer makes new loco, sticks half a dozen most popular decoders in it (one at a time 😄) and suggests best CV settings for each decoder. It's a starting point? If they then state what the effect of altering each CV up or down will be, it would make achieving individual requirements easier. This last sentence is the big thing for me that would make setting up a loco easier. 

Also, it would ensure they realised how difficult it is to fit some decoders in their loco.

 

There are around 200 manufacturers assigned by NMRA and I don't know how many locos produced. Then you get the problem of different countries have different 'popular' decoders, and one user wants super slow speed running from 0 to 300kph, another is happy with 0 to 40kph. Then someone else wants Railcom, and someone else wants Transponding, and someone else wants 'stay-alives' to work for 2 secs and other for 30 secs. On top of all this you add the type of layout it is being used on, some people do lots of shunting - which needs a different setup from the person who wants to run super long trains continuously for hours at a time.

 

And then everyone, certainly in the UK, wants everything cheap - so who is going to pay for all this testing of every decoder in every loco created worldwide in all possible user scenarios? You seem to forget that that testing and documentation is generally the most expensive part of any manufacturing process.

 

finally Zimo decoders work perfectly well in any loco, all they are doing in controlling an electric motor and it makes no difference if the plastic box surrounding the motor depicts a steam loco, a diesel loco, or a motor car.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

finally Zimo decoders work perfectly well in any loco, all they are doing in controlling an electric motor and it makes no difference if the plastic box surrounding the motor depicts a steam loco, a diesel loco, or a motor car.

Or any other make quality decoder, of which there are quite a few.

 

Bear in mind that Europeans have a different set of priorities to North Amercan modellers, so the DCC equipment has a different "flavour"

This is where the latching/non latching function difference comes from.

The US is also often late to adopt new innovations.

 

[dave75]

Points and crossings, insufrog, older and newer electrofrog , and unifrog , learn the differences and the impact on your new "2 wire" system.

[Nigelcliffe]

15 minutes ago, dave75 said:

Points and crossings, insufrog, older and newer electrofrog , and unifrog , learn the differences and the impact on your new "2 wire" system.

 

They're exactly the same wiring as for DC.    Only slight difference is that there are automatic switching devices (commonly called Frog Juicers) as an option for DCC wiring.