Hornby Trading Statement Published 22 April

[ColinB]

1 minute ago, JSpencer said:

 

Their new class 31 but only the deluxe models.

 

 

Most of my HM7000 fitted locos (I have about 10), do not have space for a powerpack. Most are older models made between 2005 and 2015 with 8 pin loco fitted plugs and certainly not designed with sound in mind. Worse, often only the 6 driving wheels actually picking  up (no tender pickups). But despite this I found I have run some of these models non stop for 30 minutes (including stops at stations etc and not simply just going round) without issue of cutting out. 

I only get issues when there is dirt, but then it is out with the track rubber, and cleaning the wheels then it is all fine again. 

I must admit I do my comparison between a Zimo sound fitted loco and HM7000. My track is not the best but in places where the Zimo is happy the HM7000 isn't. On the P2 I didn't need the Powerpack because it has so many pickups, on some of the others I did and reading the forums a lot of people seem to need one to get the loco to run properly, so I suppose it depends on your layout and the loco.

[Widnes Model Centre]

12 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

Are model shops regaining confidence to place decent orders with Hornby ? Or are there still issues of many wanting say 10 of an item and getting only 1?  

We are regaining confidence. It grows every week.

An unscheduled visit from the Sales Director who spent a considerable amount of time listening to the difficulties we had to try and deal with. Straight talking as opposed to the masquerade we had been subjected to.

 

The abolition of the Tier System, how ridiculous was that? We wanted to spend and weren’t allowed to.

 

Sadly this came too late for one particular retailer. Hornby had rebuilt bridges and had made a confidence building approach. This is very much appreciated and hopefully will continue.

 

TT120 rolled out to any retailers who wanted to stock the product. 

Our Airfix orders and preorders are the highest they have been for many, many years.

 

On a personal note, the Sales Staff, Accounts, etc, all seem happier, that’s got to be good.

 

One thing hasn’t changed, their After Sales Service. It’s way, way above any other suppliers. Problem? Resolved with the minimum of contact. As a small retailer that’s always a big confidence booster.

 

 

[Legend]

7 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

We are regaining confidence. It grows every week.

An unscheduled visit from the Sales Director who spent a considerable amount of time listening to the difficulties we had to try and deal with. Straight talking as opposed to the masquerade we had been subjected to.

 

The abolition of the Tier System, how ridiculous was that? We wanted to spend and weren’t allowed to.

 

Sadly this came too late for one particular retailer. Hornby had rebuilt bridges and had made a confidence building approach. This is very much appreciated and hopefully will continue.

 

TT120 rolled out to any retailers who wanted to stock the product. 

Our Airfix orders and preorders are the highest they have been for many, many years.

 

On a personal note, the Sales Staff, Accounts, etc, all seem happier, that’s got to be good.

 

One thing hasn’t changed, their After Sales Service. It’s way, way above any other suppliers. Problem? Resolved with the minimum of contact. As a small retailer that’s always a big confidence booster.

 

 

Good to know the transformation at the coal face . It just might take awhile to feed through to their figures 

[ruggedpeak]

15 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

We are regaining confidence. It grows every week.

An unscheduled visit from the Sales Director who spent a considerable amount of time listening to the difficulties we had to try and deal with. Straight talking as opposed to the masquerade we had been subjected to.

 

The abolition of the Tier System, how ridiculous was that? We wanted to spend and weren’t allowed to.

 

Sadly this came too late for one particular retailer. Hornby had rebuilt bridges and had made a confidence building approach. This is very much appreciated and hopefully will continue.

 

TT120 rolled out to any retailers who wanted to stock the product. 

Our Airfix orders and preorders are the highest they have been for many, many years.

 

On a personal note, the Sales Staff, Accounts, etc, all seem happier, that’s got to be good.

 

One thing hasn’t changed, their After Sales Service. It’s way, way above any other suppliers. Problem? Resolved with the minimum of contact. As a small retailer that’s always a big confidence booster.

 

 

Shaun D has been doing the rounds and Widnes MC is on his LinkedIn post.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/shaun-dubberley_hornby-customers-growthstrategy-activity-7171167478037921794-4L-5?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

 

[fezza]

The core problem is that at the premium end of the market others do it better. The only active modern image Hornby locos I have are a 31 and a 50 - and these have now been superceded by better models from other manufacturers.

 

At the train set end their products are often little more than expensive rehashes of 1980s editions - and as there are so many of those originals on the second hand market, why would you bother? (especially as the 1980s versions are often better made and more robust). 

 

Hornby stagger on and will continue to stagger on because of their name and brand recognition. But they need some serious new thinking to rescue their railway offer.

[ruggedpeak]

7 minutes ago, fezza said:

The core problem is that at the premium end of the market others do it better. The only active modern image Hornby locos I have are a 31 and a 50 - and these have now been superceded by better models from other manufacturers.

Yet Hornby have an extensive range of modern image locos including Class 67, 08, HST, 87, 153, 88DS, 48DS, 91, 4-VEP etc. No one does any of those except for the forthcoming Cav 60. Many of those are highly regarded, and Hornby are certainly getting money out of the tooling for them.

 

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

My fear is Hornby is becoming more like Lima by the day.

 

out dated, over priced, out competed.

 

Speaking as a European HO modeller the comparing Hornby with "old" Lima is interesting.  Later Lima (retooled) products were excellent but not in time to save them & eventually they were swallowed up by Hornby.

 

Hornby don't seem to have capitalised on the excellent ranges they now have in their stable - Lima, Jouef, Rivarossi.

Having said that they are in a crowrded market & maybe, just maybe the parent company puts potential buyers off (IIRC the first "new" locomotive the group produced was the BR58 wgich was not exactly trouble free).

[GrumpyPenguin]

2 hours ago, ColinB said:

 that guy that invented the "cats eye" made millions because he sold so many.

IIRC he would not licence the product because (his words) "you can't trust the foreigners to make anything properly".

So, he had a captive market all to hinmself.

[fezza]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Yet Hornby have an extensive range of modern image locos including Class 67, 08, HST, 87, 153, 88DS, 48DS, 91, 4-VEP etc. No one does any of those except for the forthcoming Cav 60. Many of those are highly regarded, and Hornby are certainly getting money out of the tooling for them.

 

 

 

A better 08 is done by Bachmann and the HST, 153 and 67 are crude by modern standards. The 91 is slightly better but fairly basic. All could easily be picked off by other manufacturers who wanted to produce a modern spec model, just as they have with the 31, 37, 47, 50 etc. 

[ruggedpeak]

7 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

A better 08 is done by Bachmann and the HST, 153 and 67 are crude by modern standards. The 91 is slightly better but fairly basic. All could easily be picked off by other manufacturers who wanted to produce a modern spec model, just as they have with the 31, 37, 47, 50 etc. 

I don't know of many people who think the Bachmann 08 is better. And the 67 is basic? Maybe you are only aware of the ex Lima Railroad version?

Anyone can and does duplicate models that Hornby have done before, but they still have an extensive range that sells. 

 

And Bachmann are seeing duplication of core models in the 37 and 47's despite spending over a million on brand new tooling, so it doesn't matter if models are dated or not, they will be duplicated. And 47's also have Heljan in the mix.

 

Hornby are quite happy selling through Railroad 37s and 47s without worrying about massive tooling costs and competition from launch. 31s are now Railroad too, so continue to profit from that aged tooling as Accura do a better one.

 

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

A better 08 is done by Bachmann and the HST, 153 and 67 are crude by modern standards. The 91 is slightly better but fairly basic. All could easily be picked off by other manufacturers who wanted to produce a modern spec model, just as they have with the 31, 37, 47, 50 etc. 

Interesting on the 08, I've read plenty that say the opposite, but I guess that's where a choice of models is good, you pick the one you like the most.

 

I reckon a 153 will come from Heljan, perhaps with a 155 off the back of that too seeing as they've put a lot of effort into a 7mm one.

 

The HST is not something I reckon anyone will touch except Accurascale.  Though Bachmann might be doing the prototype (and so far only the surviving one) with no coaches proposed then unless they are about to surprise us all I think they are doing just the single power car.  Accurascale if I recall have a HST fan in their team.

 

The 67 might be a future Dapol item, they like their bo-bo diesels and the N model may be due a refresh so why not do both.

 

We know what happened with the 91 when someone came along to offer one, I don't think they will be trying again but Accurascale do have someone modelling the ECML in modern times but that's not enough to say there is a market for another one just yet and the HST surely would come first with many more regional applications / livery variations.

[adb968008]

My gut feel is a new 08, HST, 153 and 155 are coming.

 

As for the 67 being basic, I think the real thing is too… its a fairly blunt instrument, not a lot of features to it. I can’t see a new one coming, its over cooked and uninteresting.

 

The 91 was a disappointment… set modellers back a decade or two before we see a good one.

 

The 755 is a rabbit hole too, sadly Hornby only seems to do one post BR unit every decade.

in short Hornbys pushed out of modern image imo, but its not as if they didnt had their chances they were too busy duplicating Terriers, 4-4-2Ts, class 71’s, LN’s, 61xxs and one hit wonders like W1, Turbomotive and doing duplicate P2’s etc.. which has to be a strategy decision not coincidence.  I would hope these are fully amortised as I dont see an exciting future for them.

 

Edited April 23 by adb968008

[ColHut]

22 hours ago, ColinB said:

The thing is with fireglow most times you rarely see it if it is done properly, whereas with working headlights it is difficult to miss. Amusingly many of Hornby's diesel/electric locos have minimal lighting, where this is an area where there is a huge requirement. Trouble is with Hornby they are not realistic, take the 8F, its retail price is more than the retooled Black 5, and to add insult to injury for that massive price they messed up the smokebox door. Would you pay £30,000 for a brand new Escort mk1 (not the Mexico)?

Probably yes:

 

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/ford/escort+mk1/45c2c5ed-a9d3-6c70-b7ed-bbe76572d4e6

 

😀

 

regards

[phil-b259]

43 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

in short Hornbys pushed out of modern image imo, but its not as if they didnt had their chances they were too busy duplicating Terriers, 4-4-2Ts, class 71’s, LN’s, 61xxs and one hit wonders like W1, Turbomotive and doing duplicate P2’s etc.. which has to be a strategy decision not coincidence.  

 

 

Oh come on - how can Hornbys super detailed LN be said to be 'duplicating' an the ancient split chassis Bachmann design which hasn't been available for years....

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, ColHut said:

Probably yes:

 

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/ford/escort+mk1/45c2c5ed-a9d3-6c70-b7ed-bbe76572d4e6

 

😀

 

regards

It is not brand new, but either way I wouldn't pay that. When I first started at Ford I drove one of those for the first time, I couldn't believe how basic it was.

[ColHut]

I hear you.  I have one still, just done it up, immaculate.  Height of sophistication is the manual choke 😀.

[adb968008]

30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Oh come on - how can Hornbys super detailed LN be said to be 'duplicating' an the ancient split chassis Bachmann design which hasn't been available for years....

It might be ancient, its as old as the Hornby mk2D… didnt stop Bachmann making it until 2008.

Thing is theres oodles around, cheap as chips.

 

Just because it can be made, doesnt make it a sound choice… they all ended up in bargain bins not long after Hornby brought them out… the Bulleid shorts brought with them still are…

 

£17.99.. and 6 different numbers to pick from..

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61992/R4884B-WSL-Hornby-SR-Bulleid-59ft-Corridor-Brake-3rd-Coach-2861

odd considering Southerns prolific use of Brakes, you’d think these would be gone first.

 

bottom line it didnt win the popularity contest… unlike say the original Bulleid MN, which has done very well.

 

I could have mentioned the 9f in that lot, the Bachmann one is very good, but arguably the Hornby one had really had its day so it was more of an opex than a capex replacement, even if it was entirely new… 9f has always been a Hornby staple.. fortunately they did a fantastic job, and its one that has longevity to it, than say the W1 imo which is really freak niche once in a decade.

Edited April 23 by adb968008

[Geep7]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

£17.99.. and 6 different numbers to pick from..

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61992/R4884B-WSL-Hornby-SR-Bulleid-59ft-Corridor-Brake-3rd-Coach-2861

odd considering Southerns prolific use of Brakes, you’d think these would be gone first.

Sadly the 59ft Corridor Brakes were only ever used in 3-sets with the other 59ft coaches and never used as loose stock, afaik (i'd have to check my Southern Bulleid book to be absolutely sure). I'd be up for buying a couple at £17.99, but only if I could guarantee getting a 59ft composite to go with them, and in the correct livery too. The Southern Railway and BR Southern were quite strict about keeping is coaching stock in sets. If one coach had a defect, then the whole set was pulled. And they would go to works to be repainted as a set too..... Just one of the quirks of the Southern which makes them stand out from the rest (apart from the affection for live rail....)

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

Sadly the 59ft Corridor Brakes were only ever used in 3-sets with the other 59ft coaches and never used as loose stock, afaik (i'd have to check my Southern Bulleid book to be absolutely sure). I'd be up for buying a couple at £17.99, but only if I could guarantee getting a 59ft composite to go with them, and in the correct livery too. The Southern Railway and BR Southern were quite strict about keeping is coaching stock in sets. If one coach had a defect, then the whole set was pulled. And they would go to works to be repainted as a set too..... Just one of the quirks of the Southern which makes them stand out from the rest (apart from the affection for live rail....)

Thanks never thought of that…

 

so if they made more comps… the problem would be paint matching the new run to the existing ones on retailer shelves.

and as its on the retailers shelves and not their own, I guess it makes it not their problem.

Edited April 23 by adb968008

[Geep7]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks never thought of that…

 

so if they made more comps… the problem would be paint matching the new run to the existing ones on retailer shelves.

and as its on the retailers shelves and not their own, I guess it makes it not their problem.

Yep, exactly.... someone must have made a mess up on the order quantities..... 2 x of each corridor brake (they did 2 separate numbers in each livery) for each composite, rather than a 1 for 1.....

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, Geep7 said:

Yep, exactly.... someone must have made a mess up on the order quantities..... 2 x of each corridor brake (they did 2 separate numbers in each livery) for each composite, rather than a 1 for 1.....

I wouldn't assume buyers were/are aware or care about the prototypical formations.

[Geep7]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I wouldn't assume buyers were/are aware or care about the prototypical formations.

That did cross my mind too.....

[phil-b259]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It might be ancient, its as old as the Hornby mk2D… didnt stop Bachmann making it until 2008.

Thing is theres oodles around, cheap as chips.

 

Just because it can be made, doesnt make it a sound choice… they all ended up in bargain bins not long after Hornby brought them out… the Bulleid shorts brought with them still are…

 

£17.99.. and 6 different numbers to pick from..

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61992/R4884B-WSL-Hornby-SR-Bulleid-59ft-Corridor-Brake-3rd-Coach-2861

odd considering Southerns prolific use of Brakes, you’d think these would be gone first.

 

(1) A Mk2D doesn't contain a motor which can wear out, gears which can split pickups that can break nor are people likely to want to fit it with DCC - a loco the other hand has a lot of things which can go wrong mechanically plus a large chunk of the market will want DCC capability.

 

(2) Being a sound choice in terms of prototype to model is NOT the same thing as direct duplication. Moreover RTR manufacturers don't usually use availability on the second hand market - particularly when the items are locos which are not DCC ready and are no longer supported by their manufacturer.

 

(3) In terms of viability though I do recognise that he LN was a small in number and although seen as some by the pinnacle of Maunsells career design wise is never going to have as many buyers as other more numerous classes like the Schools or Arthurs. That said the LNER P2 class (to give but one example) had even fewer members yet seems to have sold well so there is some logic in Hornbys decision to go for a LN 

 

(4) The issue with the Bulleid brakes has been explained before and has nothing to do with their popularity with modellers and everything to do with a Hornby cock up! As is the norm for Southern railway stock these brake coaches were for the most part ALL formed into a 3 car set* of identical Bullied vehicles (BTK - CK-BTK) NOT as individual coaches! The problem therefore is simply that Hornby under ordered the CK coach which goes in the middle - without which these brake coaches are useless to modellers.

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I wouldn't assume buyers were/are aware or care about the prototypical formations.

 

(1) If you are modelling the Southern Railway or BR(S) the first thing yiou realise is that 99% of coaching stock on the SR was made into fixed sets made up of coaches built to broadly the same design. This compares with other companies / regions where sets were in the minority with most trains formed of whatever vehicles were at hand that matched the accommodation requirements of the train.

 

(2) Even those modellers who don't care about accuracy don't want to run a train consisting of only brake 3rds / brake 2nds! If you look at Hornbys range of coaching stock its notable that there is currently very little by way of BR(S) or SR stock in matching liveries to go with them 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

(1) A Mk2D doesn't contain a motor which can wear out, gears which can split pickups that can break nor are people likely to want to fit it with DCC - a loco the other hand has a lot of things which can go wrong mechanically plus a large chunk of the market will want DCC capability.

 

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

(2) Being a sound choice in terms of prototype to model is NOT the same thing as direct duplication. Moreover RTR manufacturers don't usually use availability on the second hand market - particularly when the items are locos which are not DCC ready and are no longer supported by their manufacturer.

https://Bachmann-spares.co.uk/category/5-branchline-split-chassis/lord-nelson
 

The power train is all there… I believe the last ones took a very long time to sell out, it hung a while, which was an omen.

One thing you cant say is Bachmann dont support their customer, they are one of the best.

 

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

(3) In terms of viability though I do recognise that he LN was a small in number and although seen as some by the pinnacle of Maunsells career design wise is never going to have as many buyers as other more numerous classes like the Schools or Arthurs. That said the LNER P2 class (to give but one example) had even fewer members yet seems to have sold well so there is some logic in Hornbys decision to go for a LN 

 

Agreed. The GWR saint is also a good potential, and was only just newly built in close proximity, and is one thats never been done before… it may have a longer term fit given its peak popularity, and next ten years travelling the Uk… especially as they had the chassis and tender already.

 

its just one example, the LN wasn't desparate to be done, indeed the only one left had already stopped running and who knows when it will move again… You cant ignore preserved steam inspires model railway spend… the LSWR T3 is a matter of time before it emerges in 00. Indeed they could have slapped an original Scot on the rebuilt chassis and runaway with that for a fraction of the cost if the decision was about eliminating Bachmann choices.

 

imo the LN wasn't a best choice, i’m not convinced redoing the Princess, Coronation was either.

 

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

(4) The issue with the Bulleid brakes has been explained before and has nothing to do with their popularity with modellers and everything to do with a Hornby cock up! As is the norm for Southern railway stock these brake coaches were for the most part ALL formed into a 3 car set* of identical Bullied vehicles (BTK - CK-BTK) NOT as individual coaches! The problem therefore is simply that Hornby under ordered the CK coach which goes in the middle - without which these brake coaches are useless to modellers.

 

 

And next time they propose to run them at £50/60 whatever, everyone will default to.. “but last time they were £17” and still around.

it taints its image… plus people will suck up the CKs.. thus risking a repeat… or if they dont match… bargains.

they created a no win situation

 

 

Edited April 23 by adb968008