Hornby Trading Statement Published 22 April

[MikeParkin65]

38 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Absolutely agree with this. Opening the door can be a useful smoke control measure when stationary, coasting or shunting, but on the run when working hard the door should be opened for the minimum time required to throw in the coal. 

Done well on a DCC model, it would be synchronised with the noise of shovelling and the clang of the firebox door, but I've never seen a model that achieves that!

Factory fitted projects in the Accurascale Manor, Rapido 15xx and Bachmann V2 all do just that. Bachmann V2 even has pose able fire box doors!

[smr248]

As someone with an interest in TT120 I'm rather concerned that the loss making 00 models might damage my preferred scale...

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, smr248 said:

As someone with an interest in TT120 I'm rather concerned that the loss making 00 models might damage my preferred scale...

TT120 only exists because of the hole Hornby got itself into, if it could make OO pay and those dang competitors stopped nicking it's models then there would have been no need for TT120.

 

And then there will be the money it has borrowed to create TT120, has that been paid back yet because by no means is TT120 fully profitable yet.  It needs to keep re-running models and selling those out too.

[McC]

28 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The Accurascale Manor even has pose able fire box doors!

 

👍

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Absolutely agree with this. Opening the door can be a useful smoke control measure when stationary, coasting or shunting, but on the run when working hard the door should be opened for the minimum time required to throw in the coal. 

Done well on a DCC model, it would be synchronised with the noise of shovelling and the clang of the firebox door, but I've never seen a model that achieves that!

On non Hornby models firebox glow is controlled by a decoder port, but currently nobody writes software that synchronizes the decoder output with the shovelling sound. I am sure it can be done.

[40F]

Perhaps the continuing retooling of existing models instead of investing in NEW models ? How many Flying Scotsmans do you want along with Coronations, Black 5s etc. Their diesel market has gone. Factor in TT 1120 an a certain persons payoff and that is partly your answer

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The point about glowing fireboxes is that if you leave the firebox doors wide open as the loco moves off you will very rapidly find it causes massive problems with the fire and thus the steam raising capability with the loco probably grinding to a halt not long after.

 

When working the doors covering the fire are closed (or nearly closed) thus regulating the airflow and ensuring the fire burns in a way to produce the optimum amount of steam.

 

Yes when stationary at a station (the place most folk will get to see the inside of the cab) then having the doors open is quite common but do NOT assume this is the situation when you are watching the loco move along.

 

Glowing fireboxes is one thing, but what people notice the most is all that steam coming out chimney. Here Hornby have made inroads (no other competitor has this feature yet but they are working on it). It's going to be a while before that retrofits across key locos in the range but that is an opportunity.

 

HM7000 must be something that is doing well too. These chips allowing synchronized smoke as the price being asked is going to be a winner as development progresses.

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

and only finding 

Every £1 of stock reduction has increased debt by c£3, i’d be expecting stock reductions to be improving the financial health unless theres some very big investments going on… but if it is, its a secret, and brave in this climate.

 

 

I noticed this reduction of stock in the previous report did not do much to reduce debt.

 

My gut feeling would be fewer all new toolings but in many liveries to recover costs in year one instead of year 4. (Even Bachmann is on fewer toolings with more liveries even if hardly any are steam except OO-9).

Another thing is stock levels of high ticket items. When they do hit a winner, there is not enough to go around and far too many when they don't. Although I think they are better here now than 5 years ago. 

 

Direct sales are up, but I do wonder if the cost of the operation outweighs the gains. Admittedly one player fell to the side in January which might mean Hornby are becoming or have become the big box shifter themselves. 

 

Are model shops regaining confidence to place decent orders with Hornby ? Or are there still issues of many wanting say 10 of an item and getting only 1?  

[ColinB]

40 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

TT120 only exists because of the hole Hornby got itself into, if it could make OO pay and those dang competitors stopped nicking it's models then there would have been no need for TT120.

 

And then there will be the money it has borrowed to create TT120, has that been paid back yet because by no means is TT120 fully profitable yet.  It needs to keep re-running models and selling those out too.

Then there is HM7000, the system was released over a year ago and there are still many issues. Software engineers are expensive and I don't know how many are involved but it can absorb great quantities of cash. Yes you pay for the decoder, but the profiles are free, someone has to create them. Then there will be the constant updates as the various Smart Phones update their operating systems.

[MikeParkin65]

51 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Glowing fireboxes is one thing, but what people notice the most is all that steam coming out chimney. Here Hornby have made inroads (no other competitor has this feature yet but they are working on it). It's going to be a while before that retrofits across key locos in the range but that is an opportunity.

Smoke and steam don’t scale down - all I see is ‘Michael Bentines Potty Time’. Also wonder what the long term effects of water based emissions will have on electrical components around the layout and card structures.  

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

On non Hornby models firebox glow is controlled by a decoder port, but currently nobody writes software that synchronizes the decoder output with the shovelling sound. I am sure it can be done.

Again, already done both on factory fitted projects and aftermarket 

 

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, McC said:

 

👍

Pose-able firebox doors; AS Manor - has it ? Only found the Bachmann V2 had them as thought the flicker wasn’t working until I read the manual 😂

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

On non Hornby models firebox glow is controlled by a decoder port, but currently nobody writes software that synchronizes the decoder output with the shovelling sound. I am sure it can be done.

Don’t need software, it is easily configured in DCC. 
 

Roy

[DCB]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Smoke and steam don’t scale down - all I see is ‘Michael Bentines Potty Time’. Also wonder what the long term effects of water based emissions will have on electrical components around the layout and card structures.  

Maybe vape oil might work, if the cars full of vape fumes are anything to go by

 

4 hours ago, ColinB said:

On non Hornby models firebox glow is controlled by a decoder port, but currently nobody writes software that synchronizes the decoder output with the shovelling sound. I am sure it can be done.

Has anyone ever heard a shoveling sound from an actual steam loco actually in steam let alone actually running?  The sound of shovelling precedes the glow of  the door opening  when working hard when the glow is more a brilliant flash. This weekend recording locos on the NYMR P3 ( J27?)  Std4 Tank and Black 5 shows the background  hiss of boiling water is  the dominant sound of a steam locomotive, the  hiss of escaping injector steam, steam leaks sizzling safety valves.  To be fair they don't sound anything like any DCC sound, but that's because the sound is synchronised with loco speed, where the pulses should be synchronised with wheel speed and the volume by the operator, depending on whether accelerating, pulling hard, coasting or just powering along gently.

[40F]

Do we really need all these " gimmicks" ? Surely an accurate model with good detail capable of being handled  with out bit falling off all the time is what people want.

[spamcan61]

12 minutes ago, 40F said:

Do we really need all these " gimmicks" ? Surely an accurate model with good detail capable of being handled  with out bit falling off all the time is what people want.

Some do, some don't; as I've said, one person's gimmick is another's essential feature. One of the tricky things about the toy train market is working out what price / specification will generate most profit.

[John M Upton]

Still think going all in on TT:120 was a big mistake....

[ColinB]

Bachmann seem to handle it reasonably well. Admittedly they did add power pantographs on the class 90, but at least that made sure it was a reasonable pantograph. Most of their other gimmicks generally are decent lighting on their diesels. I did read somewhere that on one of their mega expensive diesels they had DCC automatic decoupling option, which could be useful. One of the other big issues with Hornby is when they make something good it is virtually always out of stock. Powerpacks for instance, it seems to get the HM7000 to work reliably you need one, but are they available at the moment, no. Worse still now Sam has identified that the LaisDCC one works with it just as well that is another market they may have lost, the LaisDCC is cheaper and smaller. Then we have the magnetic couplings, I like them and they are a bit better made than some others but again they seem to quickly run out of them. Hornby would do well to remember that guy that invented the "cats eye" made millions because he sold so many.

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, ColinB said:

One of the other big issues with Hornby is when they make something good it is virtually always out of stock. 

This remains their #1 problem IMHO. Product after product. Then by the time the second run turns up impetus has been lost and it's fire sale time again.

Edited April 23 by spamcan61

[russ p]

I bet there are a few twitching bottoms in margate now Ashley has a hand in things.  Only a small hand but a hand nonetheless 

[E100]

Not great reading unfortunately.

 

For a company that likes big NRM stuff, the fact that you cannot currently go out and buy a Flying Scotsman in current condition is ridiculous and something I think they are rightly trying to change. Those are the sort of models that bring in new people or someone with a vague interest buys to sit on a shelf.

[Railpassion]

I think Hornby is presenting itself like the 1970s but the market is far demanding and sophisticated with determined competition. 

Why did I return to model railways? Because I bought Bachmann diesel locos that work and don't have to be pushed like the old Hornby ones.

 

All around Hornby circle competitors who are motivated by Hornby's inability to produce what the hobby wants. They are successful because they are good and Hornby remain tone deaf to the customer. 

TT120 was a bold new start but even here, with a blank sheet and no competition, they manage to repeat their old mistakes, releasing inconsistent items rather than a coherent range of engines and carriages/wagons that work together. 

 

On top of that, mentioned by previous posters, they fail to exploit the variations possible in a model run to maximise their return on the initial outlay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

11 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Smoke and steam don’t scale down - all I see is ‘Michael Bentines Potty Time’. Also wonder what the long term effects of water based emissions will have on electrical components around the layout and card structures.  

 

That's fine, they can do with and without. Some people want these, some don't and the two views are not incompatible. Look at Bachmann's all new diesels. You have a plain DC version, DCC sound version and then a deluxe version which seems to outsell DCC sound version.

 

As for the effects, I doubt most will run them as such very often anyway and probably adds hardly anything to humidity in the air.

Edited April 23 by JSpencer

[JSpencer]

11 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Pose-able firebox doors; AS Manor - has it ? Only found the Bachmann V2 had them as thought the flicker wasn’t working until I read the manual 😂

 

Also Bachmann's OO-9 mainline Hunslets have them too.

[ColinB]

9 minutes ago, Railpassion said:

I think Hornby is presenting itself like the 1970s but the market is far demanding and sophisticated with determined competition. 

Why did I return to model railways? Because I bought Bachmann diesel locos that work and don't have to be pushed like the old Hornby ones.

 

All around Hornby circle competitors who are motivated by Hornby's inability to produce what the hobby wants. They are successful because they are good and Hornby remain tone deaf to the customer. 

TT120 was a bold new start but even here, with a blank sheet and no competition, they manage to repeat their old mistakes, releasing inconsistent items rather than a coherent range of engines and carriages/wagons that work together. 

 

On top of that, mentioned by previous posters, they fail to exploit the variations possible in a model run to maximise their return on the initial outlay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is interesting that has been my view of them. They seem to think that if they limit the number of popular items, that people will clamor for it. In the 60s and 70s yes, but now they just go out and buy something else. 

[JSpencer]

36 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Bachmann seem to handle it reasonably well. Admittedly they did add power pantographs on the class 90, but at least that made sure it was a reasonable pantograph. Most of their other gimmicks generally are decent lighting on their diesels. I did read somewhere that on one of their mega expensive diesels they had DCC automatic decoupling option, which could be useful. 

 

Their new class 31 but only the deluxe models.

 

38 minutes ago, ColinB said:

 One of the other big issues with Hornby is when they make something good it is virtually always out of stock. Powerpacks for instance, it seems to get the HM7000 to work reliably you need one, but are they available at the moment, no. 

 

Most of my HM7000 fitted locos (I have about 10), do not have space for a powerpack. Most are older models made between 2005 and 2015 with 8 pin loco fitted plugs and certainly not designed with sound in mind. Worse, often only the 6 driving wheels actually picking  up (no tender pickups). But despite this I found I have run some of these models non stop for 30 minutes (including stops at stations etc and not simply just going round) without issue of cutting out. 

I only get issues when there is dirt, but then it is out with the track rubber, and cleaning the wheels then it is all fine again.