My experience at a recent exhibition

[Reorte]

I might be giving the people running those layouts too much credit but it sounds more like (rather astounding) ignorance than malice. At least there's a chance of the former being changed, it's harder to do anything about the latter.

[PhilH]

My daughter has the simplest, yet most sensible answer...'just be kind'.

Seems to work in most situations.

[Phil Bullock]

On 11/05/2024 at 21:57, Andymsa said:

should I be offended 😂

Well if you are not I should be!!! 😀

 

But joking apart …. No-one should be subjected to such deliberate discrimination - especially at an event they have chosen to attend for their own pleasure. It’s incumbent on us all to remember that when we are exhibiting publicly we are representing the hobby, the organisers and ourselves. Spending time explaining the layout to visitors is part of the pleasure for me … although if I am under the layout trying to evict gremlins it may not come across quite like that!!! 

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Working on the railway is considered a privilege that many aspire to and it tends to run in families.

 

I believe most of the traditional railway families in India were Anglo-Indians, though this may have changed recently. 

[Reorte]

28 minutes ago, PhilH said:

My daughter has the simplest, yet most sensible answer...'just be kind'.

Seems to work in most situations.

The problem is that if you've got a completely ignorant prejudice built in to yourself then trying to be kind can end up being incredibly patronising.

 

And that's me trying to be kind by assuming that they're not just fundamentally awful people.

Edited May 13 by Reorte

[jjb1970]

13 minutes ago, Reorte said:

The problem is that if you've got a completely ignorant prejudice built in to yourself then trying to be kind can end up being incredibly patronising.

 

And that's me trying to be kind by assuming that they're not just fundamentally awful people.

 

In my experience one of the most insidious prejudices and the one which winds people up more than most is what has been tagged 'white saviourism'.

 

I wish I had a dollar for every rant I have listened to from people of all sorts of nationalities to the effect that people from (insert country of choice) are not stupid. They know what they need to develop, the problem tends to be financial resource. And I have to agree. I attend meetings on a regular basis where delegates from government agencies and academia from developed countries talk at those from least developed countries in a really rather patronising manner which does indicate they consider those they're addressing to be a bit thick.

 

The reason it is so badly relieved is the fundamental dishonesty it reveals. An overt racist is reprehensible but there's an honesty about their awful views. Others are basically just as prejudiced but cloak it under ostensibly worthy endeavours. 

[Cwmtwrch]

35 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

In my experience one of the most insidious prejudices and the one which winds people up more than most is what has been tagged 'white saviourism'.

It's not really relevant to the OP's situation, but it isn't only a white/non-white problem, although that is how it's often presented; it can go much wider than that. I lived for quite few years just east of Stratford in London, where I knew people from Guyana and Barbados. The Barbadian's comments about Jamaicans on occasion definitely seemed prejudiced to me [difficult to judge when you're neither], while history books give examples of fairly widespread white british prejudice against the equally white Irish in the 1950s. Religious prejudice is quite another matter, but may arise from similar reasons to racial prejudice; identifying and outlawing 'the other' seems to be built into the human psyche.

[jjb1970]

28 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

It's not really relevant to the OP's situation, but it isn't only a white/non-white problem, although that is how it's often presented; it can go much wider than that. I lived for quite few years just east of Stratford in London, where I knew people from Guyana and Barbados. The Barbadian's comments about Jamaicans on occasion definitely seemed prejudiced to me [difficult to judge when you're neither], while history books give examples of fairly widespread white british prejudice against the equally white Irish in the 1950s. Religious prejudice is quite another matter, but may arise from similar reasons to racial prejudice; identifying and outlawing 'the other' seems to be built into the human psyche.

 

Undoubtedly, racism and 'othering' is found in all races and ethnicities, what tends to happen is the targets vary but the underlying attitudes are quite similar. I spent two years based in Trinidad and some of the ethnic tension there was vicious. Examples abound in Africa, the most brutal example of my memory being the Rwandan genocide. It doesn't take much to identify it in the Middle East or Asia. That said, Britain can't fix the world, we are not responsible for what happens elsewhere but we are responsible for what happens in our own country. And that applies to attitudes in Britain regardless of who is displaying such behaviours or who they are targetting.

[PaulRhB]

A friend I worked with once commented on the irony that it was apparently perfectly ok for people to shout or scream ‘Ginge, Ginger, pubes’ etc across the street at me, for my then very red hair, but similar shouted comments would elicit public outrage made about his colour! 

As both of us are over 6ft tall we weren’t exactly ‘easy targets’ either. 
Ian, I hope you continue to enjoy the hobby to the full and I know from several colleagues and friends that sadly this sort of thing is still bubbling away.
There’s still a way to go and without the extremes of ‘offended on your behalf’ that also caused one of my friends to change depots as he felt everyone was too correct which stifled banter as a result of a few looking for offence. Fortunately he’s found a much more chilled out depot. 

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

...., we are not responsible for what happens elsewhere but we are responsible for what happens in our own country. And that applies to attitudes in Britain regardless of who is displaying such behaviours or who they are targetting.

 

This is the bit that we can do something about. 

 

Many years ago, in the model railway club I belonged to, one of the older members (now long gone) offered a distinctly racist comment about black African people. To my shame it was the youngest member, a shy and quietly spoken student, who pulled him up on it. It made me realise that we shouldn't rely on others to speak up when we hear something that's not right, we can do this ourselves, we should do this ourselves; even more so if it's friends or colleagues as they're those that we have the greatest chance of influencing.

 

 

[AY Mod]

40 minutes ago, Neil said:

It made me realise that we shouldn't rely on others to speak up when we hear something that's not right, we can do this ourselves, we should do this ourselves; even more so if it's friends or colleagues as they're those that we have the greatest chance of influencing.

 

If we can't change their beliefs we can at least get them to shut up - but there's no harm trying. I keep batting back at comments a friend of my wife makes; she doesn't realise what she's really saying in some of the comments until I break it down; she's German, doesn't regard herself as racist and doesn't understand why we're combatting Russia in the Ukraine. Mind boggling. I've probably encountered more overt racism in France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc. and the U.S. than here but it doesn't mean we're better.

[BlackFivesMatter]

I do hope you feel able to contact the club involved. It sounds like a hate incident and possibly worth reporting to the police, a witness would have been useful. Like others, I'd say name and shame.  

Not all modellers are like this, these individuals spoil the hobby for all of us. 

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

That said, Britain can't fix the world, we are not responsible for what happens elsewhere but we are responsible for what happens in our own country. And that applies to attitudes in Britain regardless of who is displaying such behaviours or who they are targetting.

I agree. I just suspect that the cause(s) of such attitudes are not at all superficial and go very much deeper in human psychology than we realise.

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I do hope you feel able to contact the club involved. It sounds like a hate incident and possibly worth reporting to the police, a witness would have been useful. Like others, I'd say name and shame.  

Not all modellers are like this, these individuals spoil the hobby for all of us. 

I wonder how many of us..if faced with a similar situation would actually do that ? If so,we might consider that many of our friends and acquaintances,not to say close relatives would face a caution or charge on the grounds of the possibility of a hate crime ? Think about it . Racist talk will take years yet to eradicate sadly

[Liam]

Likewise @ianmianmianm, my view is that you’ve witnessed an awful thing and I think you handled the situation extremely diligently and professionally.

 

I think it’s fair to say that there isn’t much diversity in our hobby. My mind is drawn to The Model Railway Club, who have a central London clubroom and their website says that visitors are welcome. I know Warley MRC also host open days occasionally at their clubroom. If clubs who do this sort of stuff were to get the local press to do a press release, perhaps this could be a way of encouraging a more diverse group into the hobby?

 

[rob D2]

4 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I do hope you feel able to contact the club involved. It sounds like a hate incident and possibly worth reporting to the police, a witness would have been useful. Like others, I'd say name and shame.  

Not all modellers are like this, these individuals spoil the hobby for all of us. 

I’d suggest 99.99999% of modellers are not like this 

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’d suggest 99.99999% of modellers are not like this 

You like to think that is the percentage, but given how minorities who live in the UK feel they are being treated and studies held, racism is still well ingrained in our society and since Brexit rising.

 

Most people who are racist will be careful when and where they spout their true beliefs, they typically don't spout them down at the railway club unless all their other colleagues hold similar views.

[BR traction instructor]

...this country has always been a crossroads of ethnicities and is probably midway down the league table of accepting same. There are obviously countries who deal with this situation better than the UK but there are many others that are significantly worse.

 

BeRTIe

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

You like to think that is the percentage, but given how minorities who live in the UK feel they are being treated and studies held, racism is still well ingrained in our society and since Brexit rising.

 

Most people who are racist will be careful when and where they spout their true beliefs, they typically don't spout them down at the railway club unless all their other colleagues hold similar views.

I would suggest that there is some level of racism in everyone, borne out of the natural tribal instincts of the human race.

It's not just skin colour but also language, customs etc.

However some take it to extremes

[billbedford]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I would suggest that there is some level of racism in everyone, borne out of the natural tribal instincts of the human race.

 

Yep, just look at the insulting names that were used for people from the next county. 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I’d suggest 99.99999% of modellers are not like this 

I get the sentiment, but that's one in every 10 million modellers.........  The OP encountered two.

[avrojetmark]

Should have named them and shamed them.

No need for behaviour like this especially in this day and age when we are a multi cultured society.

Edited May 13 by avrojetmark
Spelling

[5944]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

Yep, just look at the insulting names that were used for people from the next county. 

Or even nearby towns in some places. 

 

What @Cwmtwrch says about the diversity of modellers is true. It's the same in virtually all transport hobbies in the UK. Go to an airshow and nearly every person on the fence with a camera and long lens is white and 50+. Steam railways, especially galas, the same. Diesel galas attract a younger crowd, but even then there's probably only half a dozen or so non-white enthusiasts around. 

 

Even with Francis Bourgeois's influence and massive following within the younger generation (I'm only 40 and Instagram/TikTok makes me feel old and out of touch!) railways, real and model, are still a predominantly white pastime.

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, 5944 said:

railways, real and model, are still a predominantly white pastime.

That applies to a lot of things.

Countryfile in the past has pointed to the lack of non white walkers/ramblers in the countryside, it has changed a little in recent years.

We had a few non white visitors to our guest house but they weren't in Keswick for walking, just general sightseeing.

 

We had some strict orthodox Jews, that was something really different.

Wash their own cutlery, only have milk from a previously unopened bottle. Locked in the room with the curtains drawn and lights on all day Saturday.🙂

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I get the sentiment, but that's one in every 10 million modellers.........  The OP encountered two.

It was in response to Black5 who said “ not all modellers are like this “ which implied the majority may be . I’m merely suggesting the majority aren’t ; I.e “ very few modellers are like this “ in my experience .

Edited May 13 by rob D2