Brighton Belle

[kiltedsignaller]

I just wondered if anybody has ordered or received the fabulous-looking new Golden Age Brighton Belle set yet; if so, any reviews?

 

(I shall be green if there are )

[the fuzzler]

You really think it looks marvellous ? Its good, but two grand good ?

 

Model Rails photo shows a very odd detail. There are two very prominent Philips screws visible on the front edge of the bogie frame.

 

Looks very odd on a premium model.

[10800]

Reviewed also in August Hornby Mag, together with separate article on the prototype.

 

I would agree the screws in the bogies don't seem to match a £2K price tag. Hornby Mag doesn't mention that but concludes the price isn't unrealistic for a hand-built brass-based model.

[Ceptic]

And Red buffer beams, to boot, even on the intermediate cars !!??. I don't recall seeing that in real life, or in any colour photo.

To my eyes, the cab front doesn't quite capture the 'look' (windows too tall and the roof too shallow ?). Compare it with the prototype pics. in the Hornby mag. The route number '4' appears to be in a later roller blind font. The Belle was still carrying stencils in it's early Blue / Grey days, and the Pullman Umber looks too light, an'all.

Envy does come into it. It wouldn't get my money, even if I had it !! .

[Horsetan]

Be fair, the maker's only trying to make back the investment that was put into it.....

[43179]

And Red buffer beams, to boot, even on the intermediate cars !!??.

 

 

 

Assured by Golden age this is correct(apparently everyone questions the red bufferbeams).

- the reson they dont show up in photos is theyre covered in grime - the bufferbeams at the cab ends of course being much more likely to get washed- ones within the unit were not.

Im not sure If they had washing plants back then - but if so it would be hard for the brushes to reach intermediate bufferbeams.

 

tfn

 

Jon

[10800]

I looked at my colour photos of the Belle (and some other EMUs) and couldn't convince myself either way about buffer beams originally being red or not. Presumably if these units are hand built to order you could specify whatever colours and degree of weathering you want.

[Pennine MC]

Model Rails photo shows a very odd detail. There are two very prominent Philips screws visible on the front edge of the bogie frame.

 

 

 

Absolutely, shocking attention to detail. The 'Belle' was introduced in 1934 and Philips screws didnt go into production til a year or two later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ceptic]

Be fair, the maker's only trying to make back the investment that was put into it.....

 

 

Yes, I'll grant you that. But we're looking at an average price of GBP400+, per car.

If Golden Age are including R&D (This has been done previously, by Hornby-Dublo / Wrenn, and possibly MTK, which it does seem a mixture of), and relying on far eastern workshops to produce the product, then it is still over-priced.

The Hornby-Dublo / Wrenn Brighton Belles were expensive, and inaccurate (if you went for the trailer cars and short length motor cars), at the time. I didn't buy one of those then, and call me a rivet-counter/perfectionist, whatever you like, the asking price of GBP1.995 + VAT for a ,so called, accurate, 5-BEL set, is, to my mind, exorbitant.

And don't forget, you'll need another 5-BEL to make up the true Victoria - Brighton icon.

[RFS]

The front end just doesn't look right. The offside driver's window was designed to open outwards and thus appears larger than the nearside window. That's how the driver got to change the route code stencil without leaving his cab. But on the model both windows are the same size and flush. The route code box is just that - a box that stands proud, something that continued with the roller blind version but on the model again it's flush. And the unit number is also supposed to be on a raised board, not just painted on.

[craigwelsh]

Yes, I'll grant you that. But we're looking at an average price of GBP400+, per car.

Their existing Pullman coaches were £345 each, take into account the rise in exchange rates, the fact it'll sell less than individual coaches and more recent R&D it sounds about right @ £395 per coach. The existing coaches were selling well to their target market and this probably will too.

 

You don't give any costings for your investigations of current far eastern labour rates or R&D costs I see..

 

Bringing up MTK or Wrenn is completely irrelevant to a modern project undertaken now.

[Ceptic]

Their existing Pullman coaches were £345 each, take into account the rise in exchange rates, the fact it'll sell less than individual coaches and more recent R&D it sounds about right @ £395 per coach. The existing coaches were selling well to their target market and this probably will too.

 

You don't give any costings for your investigations of current far eastern labour rates or R&D costs I see..

 

Bringing up MTK or Wrenn is completely irrelevant to a modern project undertaken now.

 

 

O.K., Golden Age's Pullmans in 00 guage / 4mm scale, and their previous 0 guage / 7mm scale Pullmans, were, to my mind, aimed at the collector fraternity, and their prices reflect that. This is the price, for which I won't pay, especially for an inaccurate model..... Do ye get ma drift....???

For the ordinary, run o't' mill modeller, we're still a'waitin'.

 

Regards

[BernardTPM]

The front end just doesn't look right. The offside driver's window was designed to open outwards and thus appears larger than the nearside window. That's how the driver got to change the route code stencil without leaving his cab. But on the model both windows are the same size and flush. The route code box is just that - a box that stands proud, something that continued with the roller blind version but on the model again it's flush.

 

I think you're over-emphasising the differences as the opening window and headcode boxes were much less prominent on the express 6-PUL and 5-BEL units than the 3-SUB/2-NOL etc. suburban units, which did give them a smarter, more even look. However, there should be some differences (like the little angled bead under the LH window) which for £2000 per unit you might expect.

[mr b]

After reading everyones comments, I will be keeping my Tri-ang Rovex pulman cars with the Mopoc conversion that I done way back in the 1960's, at the time the whole set would'nt have cost more than £4 .

 

mr B .. can still aford to travell pullman !

[BernardTPM]

The Triang Pullmans were clearly modelled on the SR EMU pullmans (e.g. the angle at window level, oval end windows) but well short of scale length. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to make a set of etches for sides and floors so the roofs could be cut and shut and used with the moulded ends for most of the 'difficult' shapes and a new set of resin cabs for a 'Belle'. There are several ex-Belle Pullmans in the VSOE rake too.

[Adam]

From the pictures I've seen and comparing it to the Marc Models offering (for example) I would say that it scores quite well - in terms of detail and finish - especially since the Marc Models version is more or less the same price. I've seen really quite poor O gauge models go for more than this kind of money.

 

http://www.marcmodels.co.uk/html/brighton_belle.html

 

This judgement is pretty neutral since even if I had the money to spend on a model I wouldn't buy a Brighton Pullman.

 

Adam

[Oldddudders]

O.K., Golden Age's Pullmans in 00 guage / 4mm scale, and their previous 0 guage / 7mm scale Pullmans, were, to my mind, aimed at the collector fraternity, and their prices reflect that. This is the price, for which I won't pay, especially for an inaccurate model..... Do ye get ma drift....???

For the ordinary, run o't' mill modeller, we're still a'waitin'.

Surely a scale-ish Belle is only going to make real sales in the collector fraternity anyway? Who has a layout that is actually crying out for a train that only normally ran between Vic and Brighton? They'd need rather a lot of Puls/Pans or Cigs/Bigs to fill in the hours between the Belle trips! I'd say such folk are very few and far between, even if, like a few of our RMWeb comrades, they are planning to build a station on the two-track bit. And as for buying the full 10-car - sheesh. This is one for the nostalgia modeller, who likes to be reminded of the good old days, and probably doesn't even have third rail. The new CEP and forthcoming EPB and VEP lend themselves to smaller layouts - branch temini, even. Not so the Belle, I suggest.

[10800]

Who has a layout that is actually crying out for a train that only normally ran between Vic and Brighton? ........ even if, like a few of our RMWeb comrades, they are planning to build a station on the two-track bit.

 

You called, Ian? (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/275-tomorrow-balcombe-then-the-world/)

 

Our plan at the moment is for 2 Belles (maybe the third later) based around the Marc Models kits.

[Oldddudders]

You called, Ian? (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/275-tomorrow-balcombe-then-the-world/)

 

Our plan at the moment is for 2 Belles (maybe the third later) based around the Marc Models kits.

Indeed! I am looking forward to your developments with considerable relish, given your track record elsewhere, and I am sure you will make a success of it. My point is - the down Belle left Vic at 11, 3, 7 and finally @ 11 p.m. each day. In between each Belle trip there were 8 slows and 4 semis to Brighton, plus 4 each Littlehamptons and Ores. Few layouts can justify a 5-BEL, and a 10-BEL would be an awfully long train for many. Thus the price and quality of the thing is almost academic in terms of its appeal beyond the nostalgic modeller - who has his place in the firmament, but isn't gonna fund anyone's pension. If the price were £1000 instead of £2000 - would they sell twice as many? I don't think so. Similarly the issue of anachronistic Philips screws is not a killer in this part of the market. Trying to assess the model in terms of how we might view an affordable Hornby product is thus a little wide of the mark. It will sell, but few purchasers will be running it on third rail - let alone over a model of John Urpeth Rastrick's viaduct!

[cctransuk]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stage-One-OO-metal-Conversion-kit-BRIGHTON-BELLE-/330451918278?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4cf0781dc6

[7013]

Is the model worth £2K? well to those who can afford it and want it then yes it is. Are the individual cars that much better than say a Hornby pullman that they are worth ten times the price, I very much doubt it, I am not an expert on Pullmans but I would wager that if the Hornby cars are the same as the BB cars and someone renamed one and slipped it in the set it would be difficult to spot the difference. The Cross head screws look ridiculous. The paper magazines seem unanimous that it is worth the money, My opinion.. some people may have more money than sense; purchase the Hornby pullman train for a fraction of the price OK so its not the Brighton, its the Bournemouth but hey its still on the south coast!!!

[Oldddudders]

My opinion.. some people may have more money than sense; purchase the Hornby pullman train for a fraction of the price OK so its not the Brighton, its the Bournemouth but hey its still on the south coast!!!

Precisely - the Bournemouth Belle is a far more "plausible" train on an average Southern/South Western layout set in the steam era, while the "Wells Fargo" only ran on third rail down and up those very precise 52 miles. Thus fitting the Bomo version into your layout is easier, as a very broad range of Southern steam trains is available off-the-shelf, while, as I've already pointed out, the support cast for the Brighton line train hardly exists in RTR. Not an insuperable problem to 10800 and his competent cohorts, rather more so to the average layout-builder, perhaps.

[craigwelsh]

purchase the Hornby pullman train for a fraction of the price OK so its not the Brighton, its the Bournemouth but hey its still on the south coast!!!

Um, not an insignificant difference though to someone who wants the Brighton Belle. I do like finescale but even the most basic of modellers may spot the alternative has a kettle on the front!

 

If someone really wants a Belle and has the money they'll buy it, if not, they wont, simples.

[7013]

My reference was to the coaches not the fact that a Kettle pulls one of the trains.

[frobisher]

Just a (heretical) thought, but where does the tooling for the Wrenn Brighton Belle rest? Did those end up at Dapol, did they get lost in the fire or did they go on to the new Wrenn? If the latter, then this more accurate one is probably going to be cheaper, if Dapol retain the tooling then there might be a quick little money spinner for DapolDave or perhaps if they were in the pile that got sold to Hornby..?

 

Now paint it naking blue it could be a Blue Pullman (coat please!)