Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[scots region]

Hello, this is a mystery which has befuddled me for a while, why are preserved railways unpopular as Layout subjects? I mean modeling a fictitious preserved line opens up a huge range for a modeller, if you wanted it could be in this reality, an example of Gresley's P2's has been saved, an LMS Garret (imagine one of those on a passenger train !!), a 47XX or a genuine Hawksworth county, an example of all the Classes of GNR(I) 0-6-0s, a Hawksworth Pacific. Its not just Locos, there are some real gems from the Rolling Stock archive that have been lost forever. you could create your own fantasy preservation world. So why is it and what would you preserve?

[oldshutterbug]

Hello, this is a mystery which has befuddled me for a while, why are preserved railways unpopular as Layout subjects? I mean modeling a fictitious preserved line opens up a huge range for a modeller, if you wanted it could be in this reality, an example of Gresley's P2's has been saved, an LMS Garret (imagine one of those on a passenger train !!), a 47XX or a genuine Hawksworth county, an example of all the Classes of GNR(I) 0-6-0s, a Hawksworth Pacific. Its not just Locos, there are some real gems from the Rolling Stock archive that have been lost forever. you could create your own fantasy preservation world. So why is it and what would you preserve?

 

I am building an N gauge British freelance preserved railway mainly because as an expat Englishman living in Oz I cant be at home to survey any particular locoation, thanks to Google Images and photos posted form a friend on another forum I can get the feel of a particular area, I also find the mixture of steam and diesel from all regions very appealing.

[flyingsignalman]

The thought of modelling a preserved line has crossed my mind a few times but I've shied away from the idea as I would want to incorporate freight workings on my layout (when I finally catch up with my tail long enough to start one ). I don't mean demonstration freight trains either.

[LH&JC]

For me it is a cop out as I cannot limit myself to any era or region of Britain's railways before the end of steam. For example I have a model of Super D No.49395 withdrawn in 1958 and a class 25 that was built in 1966. Preseved Lines may become more popular as there will be more people who love steam but cannot relate to the 'days' of steam, but that might also lead to a boom of diesel & electric modelling. I would say that for a convincing model ofa preserved line there has to be weathering, light on the rolling stock and

some control of which locos and rolling stock used, in my mind it is more realistic to suggest that a Patriot was preserved privatly or another few locos made it to Barry scrapyard than to run locos that stood no real choice of preservation such as the LNER garratt or Big Bertha (sorry if that all sounds creul or badly worded!)

['CHARD]

Is it because, paradoxically, most preserved lines are not what would be - in the opinion of many on here I guess - considered very realistic?

 

Of course they are realistic in an objective sense, but in the main they don't reflect the actual operations that fire modellers' imaginations. Operations that, with the possible exception of the Paignton and Dartmouth, tend to be at wild variance from the branch timetables that actually operated, in terms of frequency, stock at hand, lack of obscure freight workings and passenger numbers.

 

Not wishing to sound provocative, but the pure fiction end of the modelling spectrum is actually hugely popular. The only caveat to that being that its main proponents are probably not RMWeb's core audience. When I was my son's age my efforts owed a greater debt to the infant SVR than anything operated by the main line, maybe because I was less blinkered then, or less inhibited

[halfwit]

Because its difficult to get 'right' without looking like a 'train set' (nothing wrong with train sets of course!) by having too many big shiny locos and too-clean stock? Most preserved lines have sidings full of rusty locos and stock waiting for a better day, thats a lot of weathering! And a lot of societies have a number of ex-industrials, mostly only available as kits.

For non-runners the old Airfix (now Dapol) locos can be used, just dont forget to replace those moulded handrails. I do think that non-running plastic kits should be detailed to the same standard (or as near as) as the rest of the stock.

[The Black Hat]

My layout is boardering on a perserved layout. In fact its where the national network meets the preserved railway. I think a lot of people model an area where the two run side by side - Bridgenorth and Grosmont are two examples that show this in the real world. Also I think more preserved railways and branches exist so that people can run models out of an era that would suit the main theme of the layout.

 

For my own part, my station sees preserved railway arrive at one end, with national network services arriving from the other. Based upon Bishop Auckland if planning and forethought was put into where the station should be today, it has room for both stations and a servicing area (complete with a turntable) instead of the Doctors that was built upon former railway property. Some freight services run through to serve industries in the valley, mirroring what is happening following an annoucement of coal to be brought out from Wolsingham. If you find areas that are there then the possibilities of modelling it all with some modellers licence is there for you to enjoy.

 

However, modelling just a preserved station or railway could be interesting in its own right, if you managed to get the right location and models to suit. One of the biggest things that gets me is the way that people make a model and have their trackplans ill thought out, and then choose to operate them in a manner that doesnt seem right. This too might make modelling preservation that little bit complex or simple if it was done in its own right. As in all things its how far you go, and to what extent you do it. So build your line and let others have an opinion. At the end of all this, its your layout and if you want to model preservation, then do so.

[coachmann]

Why would anyone wish to model a Preserved lines when the lines themselves are now't but a 12inch to the foot trainsets.

 

When preservationinsts first started touting for money to preserve this and that, they sold a vision to punters like me of trains continuing to run instead of dissapearing. Sure the trains continued to run , but they didn't look like anything that BR had been operating prior to closure and they certainly didn't fit the vision. First thing the older members did was got the locos repainted in pre-grouping liveries! Small wonder many people drifted into industrial railways and bus preservation in the 1960s.

[Guest 34008Padstow]

I model a preserved layout and have great fun. i have a mixture of steam and diesel, i dont have to worry about running the wrong stuff together.

[James]

Why would anyone wish to model a Preserved lines when the lines themselves are now't but a 12inch to the foot trainsets.

 

When preservationinsts first started touting for money to preserve this and that, they sold a vision to punters like me of trains continuing to run instead of dissapearing. Sure the trains continued to run , but they didn't look like anything that BR had been operating prior to closure and they certainly didn't fit the vision. First thing the older members did was got the locos repainted in pre-grouping liveries! Small wonder many people drifted into industrial railways and bus preservation in the 1960s.

This touches on themes touched upon in the WHR thread.

 

Consider this, how is has NYMR 'preserved' what the Whitby - Malton line was when they have Southern locos running up and down?

['CHARD]

My layout is boardering on a perserved layout. In fact its where the national network meets the preserved railway. I think a lot of people model an area where the two run side by side - Bridgenorth and Grosmont are two examples that show this in the real world.

 

I think you had Kidderminster in mind there David

[Ian J.]

I think at least one reason why preserved/heritage lines are less popular is that they don't run revenue earning services - either passenger or freight. They exist as partial historic preservation of certain items of stock and infrastructure, used mainly for the purposes of 'entertaining' the general public (which includes everyone from little Jimmy and his twenty-something parents who can't tell a diesel from an electric but still think all steam locos are related to Thomas the Tank Engine, all the way to Aunt Mable and Uncle Harry who remember steam when it was revenue earning).

 

The kinds of timetables that the heritage lines operate are geared solely to service that entertainment value. Very often (but not always) there isn't as such anywhere to go to at the end of the line's run. Now, while that is a timetable of sorts, it doesn't generate the variety of traffic seen in revenue earning service where locomotives would be worked hard, changed and serviced regularly; freight trains would rattle through stations going about the business of moving stuff around.

 

Conversely passenger trains would be only what was suitable for the line - in the case of most single track lines (which most of the heritage lines are) this would be smaller locomotives on two, three or four carriage rakes, most of those rakes would be similar in appearance. The uniformity is part of the revenue earning system - the eclectic mix is part of the heritage scene and doesn't seem to be 'quite right' to most people who remember the older operations of grouping, nationalisation and corporate image on the national network.

 

Following on from that, many people who model railways do so from some sort of memories (either direct or passed on from earlier generations) and try to recreate some of those in miniature. The heritage lines are not memories for many people, they are still here, still active. Other modellers look at the current scene and want in some way to capture that - again it's part of a revenue earning system where the trains do a basic job of moving things from A to B and has it's own uniformity (if a somewhat more diverse and colourful one).

 

Also another reason might be that modelling a freelance preservation line is too easy - there are really no restrictions on what you could run, what buildings and other infrastructure you could use. The only aspect that is limiting would be keeping operation to a scale 25mph limit! Sometimes in a creative work having more restrictions to stick to is more rewarding that having few or none at all.

[Wherry Lines]

A few years ago, I recall seeing a fantastic model of Weybourne on the North Norfolk Railway. It was at an exhibition somewhere, either Norwich or Ipswich.

[The Black Hat]

Consider this, how is has the NYMR 'preserved' what the Whitby - Malton line was when they have Southern locos running up and down?

 

Don't get me started on that.... and now a Southern and Dorset theme gala!! S&D is the Stockton and Darlington, but Andy knows Ive been there before, so won't wrattle the sabre too much bout that one.

 

I think you had Kidderminster in mind there David

 

Very true, cheers mate!

 

Why would anyone wish to model a Preserved lines when the lines themselves are now't but a 12inch to the foot trainsets.

 

When preservationinsts first started touting for money to preserve this and that, they sold a vision to punters like me of trains continuing to run instead of dissapearing. Sure the trains continued to run , but they didn't look like anything that BR had been operating prior to closure and they certainly didn't fit the vision. First thing the older members did was got the locos repainted in pre-grouping liveries! Small wonder many people drifted into industrial railways and bus preservation in the 1960s.

 

Why not model a preserved railway? The preserved railways that exist now and operations and allow a host of different classes of engine to be seen. Yes your going to get engines from different regions together, but thats the whole joy of the preservation movement. While it might have been true that some older members reacted like that years ago, its been a fore-runner to all the paint froth that exists today!! What does irk me about some railways, is that they run trains that are not period to the area and theme. Take the NYMR near me for example, there wasnt many Gresley A4's hauling 8 coach trains up the bank during BR days. Neither was a teak set rostered for the line, or a Pullmann. But thats preservation today and what the line needs to run and make money. Today we enjoy seeing those trains and modelling them just means you can run them all together.

 

It can get out of hand when your collection boarders on 50+ locomotives that you bought because you liked them all and so your 'preserved line' features have a dozen types of engine long since scrapped, or suddenly appearing in a guise beacuse a stable mate is their true identity. Oddly these are mostly limited editions and yes, in elements Im slightly guilty of this sin of pleasure of wanting to run them (but no one preserved A1's or J39s when they should have!) and its too much when this preserved railway suddenly has everything it could ever want or need, but then some lines get close to it.

 

Preservation is the evolution of how the heritage market has moved on to tap into the money that tourism and enthusiasts can bring, this is how the engines today earn their money and how they survive to be in steam or in traffic. If you choose to model the operation, the best tribute I think would be to model it fairly close to how it could run in life. Then you do both the railway and the interest credit.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I think most of us are trying to re-create a memory of railways working. I think we all appreciate that preserved railways have moved beyond that into entertaining the public. As has been said and to twist it slightly, why model something that is still operating? It seems that the instant we lose something, however bad it was, we feel the need to re-create it in miniature.

 

Another point is that we rarely create anything that is based on reality. That would give the rivet counters too much ammunition.

 

Fantasy and memory are so much more fun.

[scots region]

you could go titfield, and model a fictitious privatly owned steam railway.

[PaulRhB]

Are they really unpopular? I've seen quite a few including at shows and in magazines. I believe that there are many running eclectic collections of stock under such a pretext it's just a small section of our diverse hobby. You have the GW branch line at the very popular end and then things like preserved lines and industrial lines at the more specialist end. I suspect less appear in print because they tend to get the 'trainset' tag and be the subject of negative reaction more than other models perceived to be historical modelling.

From the posts above though is creating a line with your fantasy of what should have survived modelling a preserved line? I would suggest that it is freelancing as you could equally say it's a modern toc that runs recreated locos in the same vein as Tornado.

[Ian J.]

From the posts above though is creating a line with your fantasy of what should have survived modelling a preserved line? I would suggest that it is freelancing as you could equally say it's a modern toc that runs recreated locos in the same vein as Tornado.

Good point. I don't think I've even heard of anyone modelling an actual preserved/heritage line that exists in 12" to 1' scale, with all the right carriages and locos. Imagine trying to model the Bluebell Railway accurately, just getting some of the carriages would be a real problem and it's not like some would be running, many would have to be modelled in their pre-restored states with peeling paint and tarpaulin covers.

[Bloodnok]

There's a huge difference between modelling a real preserved railway and creating a fictional preserved line.

 

Modelling a real location on a real preserved line (with the locos and stock that are actually operated there) is just as much a challenge as doing the same with any other railway line anywhere in the world.

There will generally be a lot of variety, particularly in locomotives - including things not seen together outside of preservation, in liveries which are decades apart. You also see locos that would not have hauled passenger trains in revenue service, hauling passenger trains. What you don't see is operational freight trains, nor anything running quickly - as far as I am aware, no British preserved line has permission to operate at above 25mph, despite several having pway which has been judged up to standard for 55mph operation (and being permitted to operate at this speed while closed to the public).

This type of model would be fascinating to create, but also hard. Managing to get a model of each of the locos that are present, in the right condition and livery, would be a serious challenge. There would be a lot of kitbuilding, kitbashing and probably some scratchbuilding involved. The coaching stock may well be easier - a lot of it is BR Mk1, after all, and those are fairly well catered for in RTR, though modifications may need to be made for an accurate model of the vehicle in question. Then there's all the random stuff, quite often in a state of disrepair, that is to be found lurking around. I haven't seen a preserved railway yet which doesn't have at least one vehicle with a tarpaulin lashed over the roof. This kind of stuff will require lots of heavy weathering and modifications.

 

In essence, doing it properly is hard. And it's going to be nearly as hard to get this atmosphere in a fictional setting too - you can eliminate the scratchbuilding element, but you'll still be kitbuilding ex-industrial locos, making restoration project coaches with exposed frames and bits of tarp, and having all the same weathering challenges.

 

Unfortunately, the words "fictional preserved line" have a rather different image associated with them. The image that appears in my head when I hear "fictional preserved line" is that of: Pick from whatever you like off the shelf RTR, don't weather it ("Because the society keeps it clean"), and match it with a short train of any coaching stock you want, also unweathered. Operate said line in an unprototypical way, on an unprototypical track layout. In other words, it's a train set. It gets better though - the people I've encountered who claim to have a "fictional model of a preserved railway" are using "It's a preserved line" to try to explain away faux-pas that real preserved lines couldn't even dream of getting away with. One example I've seen had several 66s running "in" and "out" of the preserved line on freight (and without stopping), and a variety of DMUs operated by several different TOCs, up to and including long distance types, running right into the societies main platform - including operating through services, apparently, as they'd come and go from both sides. That isn't a model of a fictional preserved railway, it's a train set, with all the trains the owner likes on it. (And described as a train set, it really is a great one. But a model of a fictional preserved line it isn't.)

 

Consider this: after all that work doing a fictional preserved line properly, you'll have a bunch of people read those three words and dismiss it out of hand like it's one of the latter type, and the people who actually have one of the latter type will be thinking "Just like mine". Nope, doesn't sound appealing any more. Far easier to model a fictional slice of service railway instead...

[Bloodnok]

Good point. I don't think I've even heard of anyone modelling an actual preserved/heritage line that exists in 12" to 1' scale, with all the right carriages and locos. Imagine trying to model the Bluebell Railway accurately...

 

Can't vouch for accuracy, what with not having been to the bluebell recently (having moved to Australia it's a bit of a trek for me now), but have a look in this thread

[coachmann]

Someone mentioned that the minute we lose something we feel the need to recreate it in model form. Okay, but I suspect I'm not the person that modelled the railways I knew at the time they were still running! In fact it never stops. Many people model todays railways with bang up to date stock changes and liveries.

 

The problem with a preserved line is it has about as much history and character as a fairground. You go back 10 years later and nothing has really changed much. Yes, its a good excuse to run whatever model takes your fancy, and maybe some people like this idea. Personally I wouldnt find much satisfaction without restraints, check and balances and historical research.....It's too easy.

 

Larry

[Dave777]

Don't think I can add anything to what has been said, only to go back to the original question...

 

Hello, this is a mystery which has befuddled me for a while, why are preserved railways unpopular as Layout subjects?

 

...and wonder 'How has this conclusion been arrived at?'.

 

If you're thinking of RMWeb, then I think Chard was right when he said it's not generally RMWeb's core audience. There may well be hundreds of such layouts out there in people's homes, but are they likely to pop up on here or in the modelling magazines? Not sure if we've got the data to draw the original conclusion/question really

[PLD]

Hello, this is a mystery which has befuddled me for a while, why are preserved railways unpopular as Layout subjects? I mean modeling a fictitious preserved line opens up a huge range for a modeller

 

There's a huge difference between modelling a real preserved railway and creating a fictional preserved line.

 

Modelling a real location on a real preserved line (with the locos and stock that are actually operated there) is just as much a challenge as doing the same with any other railway line anywhere in the world.

 

....

 

Unfortunately, the words "fictional preserved line" have a rather different image associated with them. The image that appears in my head when I hear "fictional preserved line" is that of: Pick from whatever you like off the shelf RTR, don't weather it ("Because the society keeps it clean"), and match it with a short train of any coaching stock you want, also unweathered. Operate said line in an unprototypical way, on an unprototypical track layout. In other words, it's a train set. It gets better though - the people I've encountered who claim to have a "fictional model of a preserved railway" are using "It's a preserved line" to try to explain away faux-pas that real preserved lines couldn't even dream of getting away with. One example I've seen had several 66s running "in" and "out" of the preserved line on freight (and without stopping), and a variety of DMUs operated by several different TOCs, up to and including long distance types, running right into the societies main platform - including operating through services, apparently, as they'd come and go from both sides. That isn't a model of a fictional preserved railway, it's a train set, with all the trains the owner likes on it. (And described as a train set, it really is a great one. But a model of a fictional preserved line it isn't.

 

My thoughts are similar to Bloodnok's: certainly as far a standard gauge lines are concerned, the 'fictional preserved line' is all too often an excuse to run an unlikely collection of R-T-R stock, and frequently through some improbable scenery... Narrow gauge modellers tend to fare a little bit better at the 'fictional preserved line' theme (perhaps the need to build all the stock leads to a little more thought at the design stage??) and I can think of a couple of resonable efforts at 'preserved tramways'

 

Models of 'prototype preserved lines' do tend to fare a little better - there was a decent model of Gothland as preserved a few years ago and one of Alton on the Mid Hants Railway. Again It is an area where Narrow gauge modellers often outshine the standard gauge modellers - several fine examples I can think of based on NG lines, particularly the Ffestiniog and Talyllyn, in the preservation era.

['CHARD]

 

Models of 'prototype preserved lines' do tend to fare a little better - there was a decent model of Gothland as preserved a few years ago...

 

Rather brooding, pale and gloomy for my taste

 

I'll get my trenchcoat

[f#m]

Why is it preserved lines don't have models of their own line as it's intended to be once all the major work restoring buildings/Pway/stock and so on has been done? Good way to show people what they are helping to pay for and maybe get a little more cash flowing in if they stuck a donation box next to it.

 

I'm currently building a standard gauge terminus of a preserved line because being tied down to one era or railway company isn't any fun to me, it's like going into a sweet shop and only tasting the one kind of sweet no matter how much you may like that sherburt lemon at first after a few months eating only them it gets boring.