Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[definate maybe]

JimC, I dont think anybody is trying to belittle preserved railways in the 305mm to the foot world. The comments have come from a modelling POV and most people seem to think that trying to get the realistic feel of the subject is difficult. When people are talking about the 'tourist' only aspect I believe they are talking about the need to only keep 1 demographic happy for the line to be a success. Locals may use the services for convienence but I would imagine as a % of their revenue/ profit it is a small amount although as you point out they do give a greater input to the local community through bringing money to the area.

With the 'mainline' a normal model subject would most probably have two or three traffic subjects on which to add interest whilst still maintaining a degree of realism whereas most freight or parcels traffic, for example, on a preserved line are still run for tourist interest measures or as photographic specials.

[James]

to my uneducated eyes it appears to me that they do a damn sight better job of earning revenue than their predecessors did with those facilities.

But there is a hell of a difference between running a handful of tourist services at weekends and running day in day out all year round. Running for more days of the year or at higher line speeds (such as the GCR) will see costs rise rapidly.

 

Their "predecessors" didn't have quite the same market to use to make money via gift shops and cafes - the lesiure traveller whose visit is to experience the railway will stay all day and spend money with the railway, whereas the normal traveller will get a train and when they get to their destination will disappear.

 

Incidently, from my contacts, including a trustee of one preserved railway in North Yorkshire, heritage railways don't have it easy when it comes to revenue.

[F-UnitMad]

One of the "busiest" preserved layouts I have seen is the "Museum of Transport" which I saw at the Bakewell Exhibition in June (and made a special trip there to see) -

 

http://museumoftransport.webs.com/

 

Saw this at Warley/NEC a few years ago; I love the way they describe the Lancaster on the website as "Non-flying"... :lol:

[PGN]

What a fascinating debate - and what a wide variety of points of view. Why, there are almost as many different points of view expressed here as there are different approaches to railway modelling! But isn't that the whole point??? Our hobby is a broad church and there is room for anyone and everyone.

 

For some modellers, it's all about making as nearly as possible an exact replica of an actual location, at an actual date, with the very stock that ran there at that time (or, if your initials are PD, the very stock that NEVER ran there ... but totally convincingly so!!). For others it is about accurate operation of their replica railway. For others again, it is about having a nice scene through which they can run their stock and "watch the trains go by". For others it is about ... well, I think you have probably got my point.

 

And railway preservation?

 

Well, here again, it seems to me that there are as many different approaches as there are preserved railways. I'm familiar with more than a few of them: and each has its own merits and demerits.

 

Model one? I might be tempted. If I do, I would probably want to model it on a gala day, to justify having more than a measly two or three locomotives running. And why not?

 

Real or imaginary? A bit of both, probably. The location, and the preserved line, might well be fictitious. But the operational side? The choice of stock? I'd try to give the right "feel" of preservation, recognising the factors that give the preserved scene its feel. Factors like ... in the rush to rescue locomotives from Barry, the mix of locomotives which was saved from the cutter's torch was all wrong. Big powerful types were saved in abundance ... but unless they're big enough and iconic enough to be worthy of main line railtour work, they're a pain in the preservationist's bum, tbh, because they burn too much fuel and don't get enough work to justify their existence. Moguls and 56xx tanks and locomotives in that sort of power bracket are much more useful ... but are there enough to go around? And then, of course, there's the industrial saddletanks. Meaty, powerful, easy to maintain (why did the NCB choose to keep these ones on, do you suppose?? It was a kind of "survival of the fittest") so everyone has one or five. But what kind of "preserved train" is an Austerity tank with a string of five Mk I coaches rattling along behind it? Yet it's a pretty ubiquitous sight, so if you're modelling the "British railway preservation scene" then it seems to me that this is the kind of thing you ought to be running.

 

Or should you?

 

What about preserved lines like the Bluebell? They were first in there, and so they got the pick of the locomotives. And what locomotives they picked! Much of it runs, or has at some time been run, in pre-grouping livery: and why not, if it is a pre-grouping prototype? Many of their freight vehicles are beautifully painted in pre-grouping colours - predominantly those of the constituents of the Southern Railway because of their location. There is an overall coherence to what they offer - the Southern and its constiuents predominate so if you are looking for "locational fidelity" then here it is.

 

The Severn Valley offers "locational fidelity" o fa different kind - but has built up rakes of LMS and LNER coaches, as well as their "prototypical" GWR stock.

 

And then ... and then ...

 

Yes, there are plenty of different approaches ot preservation; and there are plenty of ways you could go abotu modelling preservation. But if it's not for you, then fine: don't do it. Do what fires your enthusiasm. If it's not what fires my enthusiasm, then no matter. It's your model not mine, and I'll not knock you for your personal choice. And I hope you'll want to reciprocate that tolerance of the other man's point of view ...

[Bluebell Model Railway]

What about preserved lines like the Bluebell? They were first in there, and so they got the pick of the locomotives. And what locomotives they picked! Much of it runs, or has at some time been run, in pre-grouping livery: and why not, if it is a pre-grouping prototype? Many of their freight vehicles are beautifully painted in pre-grouping colours - predominantly those of the constituents of the Southern Railway because of their location. There is an overall coherence to what they offer - the Southern and its constiuents predominate so if you are looking for "locational fidelity" then here it is.

 

Boy don't I know it... expensive as well! I should know i have most of the Bluebell locos...

 

Anyway back to topic

I think end of the day its not so much are they unpopular or not, I think the older people amoung us model what they remember from the glory days or steam, or when it was just ending. In coming years as the younger generation come up through the ranks of clubs... will the scene at exhibitions change? Because the younger guys never lived through the real steam age.

 

To be honest I think its interest as was said before isn't this what Railway modelling is about,

There is a broad range of interests and different layouts preserved, modern, a mixture of both, fictional, real places modelled... I think general its interesting and here the stories why people have chosen to model the places they have.

 

Preserved layouts may not be as popular yet because the kids and the young guys like myself are still yet to have their time to build preserved layouts and have them either exhibited or otherwise.

 

I chose the Bluebell due to its unique collection and its wonderfully preserved and recreated stations, and its one of my favourate lines.

 

Thats my 2pence worth on the subject.

[Colin_McLeod]

I was at a model railway exhibition today with all the layouts set among the 12" to the foot exhibits of the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum. One of the layouts is an excellent model by Tony Ragg. Stanfording is a 7mm finescale model representing a heritage line's base and is inspired by the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland's base at Whitehead.

[westerner]

I must admit that Models of Heritage Railways normally do NOT float my boat, but I saw an O gauge one today which did. . Seabury Town which I have just seen at the Spalding show. Whilst the stock and the running were excellent, it was the working cameo's that caught one's eye. They are normally something which I find distracting in a layout but these seemed to fit in well with the Heritage scene. The Loading gauge being painted, the post being knocked in, the small signal gantry being dismantled and the photographer taking pictures and the Ogauge guild stand with a tiny working model railway about 4inches by 2inches.all fitted in well with the heritage scene. Whether it was these, the fact it was O gauge or there were no arrivals of modern stock , but it certainly worked for me

[m0rris]

Preserved railways are interesting as prototypes but not as model railways....

Whilst this sounds like a massive generalisation/stereotyping of them Ill explain; preserved railways have large numbers and huge variety of locos all in different liveries

/conditions etc. However, from a running point of view there is often little to inspire the modeller in terms of real traction moving on the typical preserved railway (ie Austerity and 2 mk1s!) and most importantly no freight, although the major railways do of course present different opportunities. From efforts I've seen before I'd also say a major problem that preserved railways have, and share with scrapyards and many other similar scenes, is it is very hard to portray the character of them through model form!

 

My tuppence worth

 

m0rris

[S.A.C Martin]

What perhaps has startled me somewhat, is that one of the layouts that I consider captures the essence of a real location the best, in 4mm form, IS a model of a preserved railway. The person in question has modeled most of the line's unique collection of locomotives, and has even bought coaching stock to match. As far as the saying "Just like the real thing..." goes, he's come pretty damn close with his efforts - far better than some model railways of real (working) locations I've seen, particularly those of a "modern image" persuasion (but this is just one man's opinion).

 

I don't consider a model of a preserved railway to be a pastiche of a pastiche - railway modeling is exactly that: modelling a railway. It's irrelevant to me what kind of railway it is, it's all about the atmosphere portrayed, and the accuracy to prototype in equal measure. Someone said earlier that the hobby is a broad church - and it is, but the key factor is that we all model railways in some form.

 

How successful our modeling is, rarely has anything to do with the choice of prototype, but how we portray it, and capture the imaginations of those who examine it.

 

Just my two cents.

[m0rris]

What perhaps has startled me somewhat, is that one of the layouts that I consider captures the essence of a real location the best, in 4mm form, IS a model of a preserved railway. The person in question has modeled most of the line's unique collection of locomotives, and has even bought coaching stock to match. As far as the saying "Just like the real thing..." goes, he's come pretty damn close with his efforts - far better than some model railways of real (working) locations I've seen, particularly those of a "modern image" persuasion (but this is just one man's opinion).

 

Interesting points, and I think your post highlights a key fact... Preserved railways need as much if not more work to get the "right" feeling, especially since the largely unique/rare nature of much of the stock on these railways makes them even harder to model!

 

m0rris

[f#m]

Preserved railways are interesting as prototypes but not as model railways....

Whilst this sounds like a massive generalisation/stereotyping of them Ill explain; preserved railways have large numbers and huge variety of locos all in different liveries

/conditions etc. However, from a running point of view there is often little to inspire the modeller in terms of real traction moving on the typical preserved railway (ie Austerity and 2 mk1s!) and most importantly no freight, although the major railways do of course present different opportunities. From efforts I've seen before I'd also say a major problem that preserved railways have, and share with scrapyards and many other similar scenes, is it is very hard to portray the character of them through model form!

 

My tuppence worth

 

m0rris

No frieght? most have a P-way train of some kind since the track and such doesn't magically take care of/replace itself when work needs doing, many run freight trains for the benefit of photographers, many also have stock awaiting restoration stored at a different location from the main base of work where restoration takes place so you get stock in various states of decay/rebuilding being taken back and forth as funds/staff becomes avalable to restore it...

 

A lot more going on than some model railways would have, particularly these modern image ones you get with a shed that a light loco or two potters about at getting refueled while a sprinter comes and goes from the platform next to it. (that's not saying that kind of layout has anything wrong with it I quite like them actually)

[m0rris]

I take you point, the view I was coming from was in comparison to the steam era when there was a wide variety of freight services on these lines. I suspect that engineers trains are something that are interesting but easyily over looked.

 

You do have an interesting pooint about todays lines vs others, today freight is practically non existant across some parts of the network e.g. Salisbury Exeter route, and thus the only chance to model freight is engineering/inspection trains. Personally I found it deathly dull to live by (although they can still be modelled better than I could ever achieve!) and have consequently decided to model modern set in colder climes.

 

m0rris

[G-BOAF]

Having caught up with this thread, as a 'preservation modeller', I thought I would make a contribution to this interesting discussions. Some of my arguments will echo themes in the excellent comments of St Simon (28 August), The Black Hat (20 October) and PGN (10 November). This lengthy post is more of a critique of some of the reasons given against preservation modelling than explaining why there are so few (sorry its slightly OT)!

 

Firstly, I am ashamed to say that my still-temporary layout is hugely sub-par, mainly because it is basically an oval of track with many sidings (growing in number) and run round loop. It spends much of its time stored against a wall so all scenics and buildings are removable; i.e. its a rather overgrown trainset! (2500mm x 1250mm). It could be best described, in prototype terms, as a 'railway centre' with a mainline connection running off a (gated) spur in one corner.

 

However my 'magnum opus' (when I have the space/a place of my own) WILL be a fictitious preserved railway aiming to capture the scenic and operational character of some of the premier UK preserved railways. This is influenced by some very happy (if not all that regular) childhood visits, and later a little bit of volunteering, on the Bluebell Railway, and visits to the NYMR while on summer holidays in Yorkshire! The architecture will be based on (my local) GNR buildings of North London. It will have a mainline connection, with shared NR and heritage line station as a main station.

 

With this in mind, the detail and character of my current layout, and the content of my stock collection, builds towards this aim.

 

I will admit to running non-weathered stock. Most persevered locos are kept clean, except for a bit of road dirt and maybe some fading paint (45110 (SVR) at the end of its ticket and a Barrow hill is a prime example – clean but faded!). Yes rolling stock should have a coating of brake dust and assorted colouring below the sole bar in most cases, as well as different aged paint; I'm not confident enough to attempt this at present....

 

Run Anything? / Collecting Policy

I would question argument that preserved railways are an 'excuse to run anything'. If done thoughtfully, this does not have to be the case. Personally I will only buy preserved locos (or ones that can easily be renumbered with correct details). Similarly coaches and freight stock must have a preserved example and cannot be represented in numbers that exceed their total in preservation. I don't got to the lengths of renumbering rolling stock, although if repainting, will apply preserved number.

 

Such restrictions are a great way of holding spending in check (!), as much as sticking to any other particular region and era (for example, at present I have no Hornby Maunsell-liveried Maunsells – all the preserved examples are high-window examples, and Hornby's full width models are only represented in preservation by BCKs and CKs (so my research indicates)

 

Excuse to 'Plonk' RTR?

I would take issue with the proposition that 'preservation' is used an an excuse to plonk RTR models and run them. Part of my rolling stock fleet is a mainline charter rake, some of which is used in everyday 'branch' traffic, but occasionally formed into a 12 coach rake and going 'off scene' on a railtour. This follows the operating practices of the SRPS at Bo'ness. All 'mainline registered' Mk1s have had commonwealth bogies fitted, orange cantrail stripes, and OHL flashes, as well as appropriate end steps removed in most cases. Periscopes have been blanked off all Mk1 brakes. I've repainted a Mk2a TSO into SRPS Maroon livery as 5412 (but without SRPS branding), and have one (plus one pending) WCRC Maroon Mk1 Pullman FOs. OK the maroon pullmans are never (?) seen on preserved railways; this is a slight 'run anything' case, but is a compromise to provide open first accommodation.

 

Operational Interest

Clearly there's daily (or weekend) passenger traffic, Pullman lunch and dinner trains, demo freights, and the occasional photo charter. There's also shunting stored stock, and ensuring that vac-only and air-only stock are not shunted together, and are moved by appropriately fitted locos. Mainline formations are formed with a mk2 and/or non passenger mk1 at the ends.

 

In terms of locos, there's the need to ensure small locos are hauling appropriate loads, and are deployed in an operationally prototypical way (for example I won't be using my Well Tanks for winter passenger trains without an additional loco to provide steam heat!).

 

The modelling of a heritage-centre based mainline rake provides the opportunity to take stock 'off stage' on a regular basis, and have mainline or mainline heritage diesels coming on to provide charter haulage or insurance/ETH roles. Again, I would not say this is 'an excuse'; it is representative of prototypical operation.

 

Celebrity Locos

In terms number of celebrity locos, clearly unless you are modelling a specific line such as the excellent model produced by “The Bluebell Railwayâ€, this can be a problem. As the owner of models of Mallard, The Scotsman, Tornado, Clan Line etc etc.... I can testify it can look ridiculous! The trick is clearly to ensure they are not all in use at once.

 

I would, however, question the real life rarity of such celebrity fleets. If one looks at recent-past and present allocations to some of the premier preserved railways, there are a high concentration of celebs: NYMR (Gresley, K1, 45767, Pocket Rocket, Blue Peter, 7F..) ELR (Lizzie, The Duke, 45407, 45871), GCR (30777, Cromwell, 63601, 60163), MHR (Bittern, Nelson, CanPac), SVR (60009, 61994, Taw Valley), and places like Tysley, Crewe, and Didcot.

 

 

Preservation Character

I would agree that the key to effectively modelling a preserved railway, be it real location or fictitious, is getting the character right. Given their contemporary nature, this should be comparable with any other modern image layout. I would critique the idea of a 'pastiche of a pastiche'. There is little that is 'pastiche' about the area behind the works at Sheffield Park (Bluebell) ('Atlantic House', boiler 'park', numerous shipping container stores, Loco Wheelsets, ex 92085 9F cylinders). Areas such as these are part of the 'modern-day heavy engineering' of railway preservation, and deserve to be captured in model form.

 

With this in mind, my present layout features a JCB for coaling locomotives (still looking for a decent forklift!), as well as Bachmann containers that are weathered/repainted/debranded sitting on sleepers behind my loco shed. The shed itself has 'restricted width' checker boards on, featuring maintenance pits and a separate ash disposal and boiler washout pit. I've converted Bachmann RU to use as a static kitchen, on accommodation bogie sitting on isolated track at the back of one platform. The 'kitchen' is served by a scratch build brick/wood ramp allowing supplies to be brought from 'carpark to coach'. This ramp is fenced with 'heritage fencing' (Ratio GWR, I think). The interior of the RU is fitted with a modern stainless steel kitchen and public buffet seating area. A Dapol kit West Country is 'awaiting overhaul' in a siding, chimney capped, greased motion, empty tender.. A dismembered kit Dapol 9F represents a loco undergoing restoration from scrapyard condition (tender all but complete boiler work needed!). Box shifter sales of RR/IC/NSE Mk1s provided an ideal opportunity to acquire coaches stored pending restoration, weathered, patch painted, the odd door swapped out with heritage painted one, roof sheeted over.

 

This is my few pounds worth. Thinking about it, I'm surprised there aren't more high quality preserved railways modelled, especially by us young(er) folk who don't remember steam. One day I hope to properly make my contribution in this area!

[Black Sheep]

I was going to model Lakeside of the Lakeside and haversthwait steam railway, although I was going to have the building survive and the track work, main rolling stock would have actually been late LMS but sometimes run it as blue diesels.

 

currently lakeside runs using 0-6-0 austeritys or 08 shunters or occasionally, fairburn tanks and a bunch of either ex midland or BR mk1's

 

I'd have been using more black 5's and ivatt tanks had I had the space and time to build it.

 

Might do one day.

[Unknown Warrior]

This is indeed an interesting debate! I wonder how many modellers visit Heritage Railways as a source of information for their layouts. What does balast look like after steam locos have been standing over it? Where do the weeds grow? Details of buildings that have been restored to their original form. Certainly being a regular volunteer working on the track and overhauling and firing steam locos has done a lot to inform my modeling!

 

Modelling a ficticious preserved railway is involving me in considerable research to try and create a believable "History" and to put together a collection of rolling stock which could run on it. At least as much as most peole do before creating their layouts based on a particular location/ period. Fortunately Bachmann in particular are very good at producing models of preserved locos and Hornby seem to be catching on!

 

Quite a few recent models from, Bachmann, Dapol and Hornby have been produced using preserved locs and stock in presevation to inform research and to produce better models.

 

Volunteers on Heritiage Lines are often accused of "playing trains." Maybe, but try going into prepare a steam engine at 6.00am on a wet, cold dark morning or relaying track in the rain or snow. Running a heritage line is a buisiness and the customer expects it to be right! Turning up because you are rostered is not always a bundle of laughs but it does show considerable commitment by those of us "playing trains" on Heritage Railways. ... and yes at the end of the day we do enjoy it!

 

To finish on a high, for those people who don't already know, The Ecclesbourne Valley Railway just north of Derby will be opening the whole of the Duffield to Wirksworth Branch with a special reopening weekend: 8th-10th April. Only the second complete standard gauge branch line in presevation. The timetable is designed to connect with Matlock Branch Trains at Duffield.

 

Full details at: http://www.e-v-r.com

[edcayton]

To me, a "preserved" railway is an attenpt to recreate a railway from the past. My model railway is also an attempt to recreate a railway from the past. If I were to make a model of a preserved line then I'd be recreating a recreation, or modelling a 1:1 model!!

 

Ed

[James]

Volunteers on Heritiage Lines are often accused of "playing trains."

I'm afraid on some lines staff act like the public are merely getting in the way of them enjoying themselves! I've seen plenty of volunteers behaving in a rather unprofessional way.

 

Not all railways are like this (the GCR impressed me with how they ran things on the engineering side of things) but they do every railway some damage as a result.

 

 

Maybe, but try going into prepare a steam engine at 6.00am on a wet, cold dark morning or relaying track in the rain or snow. Running a heritage line is a buisiness and the customer expects it to be right! Turning up because you are rostered is not always a bundle of laughs but it does show considerable commitment by those of us "playing trains" on Heritage Railways. ... and yes at the end of the day we do enjoy it!

 

Only the second complete standard gauge branch line in presevation. The timetable is designed to connect with Matlock Branch Trains at Duffield.

The other one must be the KWVR?

 

I hope that weekend goes well - always looks like an interesting project.

 

But at the EVR, they do strike me as rather different from many heritage sites - http://www.mytesttrack.com and its operations show the railway runs professionally as a business. I doubt they'd have all those clients if this wasn't the case!

[The Stationmaster]

 

But at the EVR, they do strike me as rather different from many heritage sites - http://www.mytesttrack.com and its operations show the railway runs professionally as a business. I doubt they'd have all those clients if this wasn't the case!

 

Best of luck to the latest in the business, Duffield sits in a good tourist area so ought to do well.

I think you will find that many of the 'preserved/heritage/leisure' railways are involved in their their skills and facilities in one way or another. For many it is an engineering (a railway, or sometimes 'general') skill, service or facility which they offer while others offer either operating/test facilities or training facilities using their line while some, I believe, manufacture and sell components into the wider railway preservation field. Taking James' comment a little further the situation nowadays is very much that unless a line and its activities are professionally managed it is not only selling itself short but is putting its entire operation in jeopardy - they have to be run on a professional basis (even if by part-timers) or they might not be able to run at all.

[sir douglas]

Hello, this is a mystery which has befuddled me for a while, why are preserved railways unpopular as Layout subjects? I mean modeling a fictitious preserved line opens up a huge range for a modeller, if you wanted it could be in this reality, an example of Gresley's P2's has been saved, an LMS Garret (imagine one of those on a passenger train !!), a 47XX or a genuine Hawksworth county, an example of all the Classes of GNR(I) 0-6-0s, a Hawksworth Pacific. Its not just Locos, there are some real gems from the Rolling Stock archive that have been lost forever. you could create your own fantasy preservation world. So why is it and what would you preserve?

 

i've had that thought as well a few times, and i've always wanted to model middleton railway just before the complete rebuilt

[Kris]

Only the second complete standard gauge branch line in presevation.

 

The other one must be the KWVR?

 

 

I would consider the West Somerset line to be a complete branch, even though the Bishops Lydard to Taunton section does not see regular passenger traffic.

The Paignton to Kingswear line could also be considered to be a complete branch.

[The Stationmaster]

I would consider the West Somerset line to be a complete branch, even though the Bishops Lydard to Taunton section does not see regular passenger traffic.

The Paignton to Kingswear line could also be considered to be a complete branch.

 

 

 

We ought to start totting them up -

Paignton - Kingswear

(arguably) the West Somerset as it does have though trains occasionally.

Aberystwyth - Devils Bridge (well it was a branch line at one time).

Cholsey - Wallingford (albeit a relocated station in Wallingford but still a complete route starting at a bay platform at the junction station).

The KWVR (indisputably complete original route I think)

are there any more?

 

[Kris]

You could add the Bodmin and Wenford line SM. This reaches Boscarn junction which was the limit of the GWR branch, the rest being SR. (This one might be stretching things a little)

[edcayton]

If you allow the West Somerset because of through trains, then you must allow the Swanage Line for the same reason. In my view neither count because they don't regularly run into the main line station.

I'd tend to agree with the Bodmin and Wenford though. The section from Bodmin Road up to General is effectively a complete branch line.

 

Ed

[28XX]

Towyn to Abergynolwyn

 

Portmadoc to Blaenau Ffestiniog (with a little diversion)

 

Welshpool to Llanfair C

 

(sorry you said standard gauge my bad)

Edited February 7, 2011 by 28XX

[Coddy]

Well im going to do a heritage line, freelance.

 

Not every one wants a set period, whilst it limits me in running anything modern, except for say one Pacer as a shuttle on a seperate line, I can get away with all sorts.

 

I suppose for me, as someone who likes trains, rather than being a rivit counter/purist/spotter, I just want to, for want of a better word 'play'