Peco point motors and switches

[Kallaroonian]

It has been suggested to me that Peco point motors can be fiddly to set-up and the associated switches for power routing are unreliable.

 

My experience has been that the motors are bullet proof but I have no experience with their switches

 

What does everyone think?

 

thks

[beast66606]

Motors = good

Switches = not good

[craigwelsh]

Better to buy a pack of microswitches from RS spares or somewhere and have them act on the vertical when the point moves in one direction. Much better quality switch and cheaper too!

[Kallaroonian]

Does anybody else have 2c they want to share? It would be good to get a broad picture. I'd prefer to use Peco because it suits my purposes for other reasons but not if the whole arrangement would then end up very unreliable.

 

Craig - how would the microswitches act on the vertical? What part of the point would move the microswitch contact and secondly wouldn't the mounting position have to be very precise for this to work? I was wondering about using relays paralled off the point control as well

 

 

thks

[PaulCheffus]

Does anybody else have 2c they want to share? It would be good to get a broad picture. I'd prefer to use Peco because it suits my purposes for other reasons but not if the whole arrangement would then end up very unreliable.

 

Craig - how would the microswitches act on the vertical? What part of the point would move the microswitch contact and secondly wouldn't the mounting position have to be very precise for this to work? I was wondering about using relays paralled off the point control as well

 

 

thks

 

Hi

 

I use both Peco Point motors and their PL15 switches on sixty points and don't have any issues. I did have problems with the PL13 type on a previous layout.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[RedgateModels]

Gordon H steered me away from Peco PL13s when I had terrible trouble with them on Summat Colliery (especially in dusty environments)

 

This thread on the old forum sums it up really.

 

All you need is some cheap long armed microswitches (Maplin, RS, Rapid etc etc) and some wooden blocks to space them away from the baseboard.

 

Utterly reliable, I would never use a PL13 to switch frogs again (although one is still in use providing the switch to operate the solenoid controller for the Signal on Summat Colliery)

[craigwelsh]

Craig - how would the microswitches act on the vertical? What part of the point would move the microswitch contact and secondly wouldn't the mounting position have to be very precise for this to work? I was wondering about using relays paralled off the point control as well

thks

Act on the bottom bit of the pin that goes through the point, you don't have to be massively accurate with the long arm microswitches.

 

You can use relays off them for extra power requrements but these microswitches can normally handle quite a few amps for DCC fine.

 

A Peco point with a PL15 is nearly the cost of a Tortoise or something otherwise.

[Gilbert]

I think I'm in a minority but I've used PL13s successfully on an exhibition layout and a home layout. They are surface mounted and connected via wire in tube. I do periodically give them a quick spray with a contact cleaner (Servisol I think)

Chris

[Kenton]

Does anybody else have 2c they want to share? It would be good to get a broad picture.

Only to paraphrase beast66606's reply

 

Motors = thump thump

(noisy, pretty violent, but reasonably reliable with a CDU)

Switches = more trouble than they are worth.

(the micro switch variety tend to fall apart, are fiddly to set up, expensive)

(the slider variety wear out, are subject to corrosion, wiper problems)

 

Overall: why bother? The motors are ok for insulfrogs and settrack type layouts or you can start out as is best to continue - with a Tortoise.(rock solid reliability and ease of use with two built-in switches.

[Butler Henderson]

By microswitches if you are referring to sub-min toggle switches then I find you get what you pay for - cheap ones do not last as I found out to may cost and have since then always bought them from Maplins - not that cheap but seem to be of a good quality.

[Jenny Emily]

I've used Peco motors on my layout, and have found the PL-10 ones bulletproof reliable. The PL-10E are a fiddle to get aligned perfectly and may take some tweaking, but have become equally bulletproof once fitted exactly right.

 

I've used some PL-13 switches to switch frog polarity, and whilst I know a lot of people say they're bad, so far (touch wood) I haven't had a problem. I did, however, use a lot of Hornby Dublo G3 switches for the same task, and these work faultlessly, and have the advantage that they gang neatly together the D1 switches I use for changing the points and are colour coded. They can be found reasonably cheaply off Ebay in job lots, if you keep watching lots of auctions long enough and are prepared to let the lots plagued by manic bidders go their own way.

[RFS]

I too use PL10E motors with PL13 switches. They do require careful alignment, not only to ensure the point blades seat firmly on each side but also to ensure the PL13 is also aligned. Otherwise you can get derailments (misaligned blades) or dead frogs (misaligned PL13s). But once set up I do not have issues with them and I've got over 50 now. As with all mechanical devices, they do need a bit of maintenance now and then - some lubrication (I use vaseline) on the point solenoid bar and underneath the slider on the PL13.

 

Alignment is also critical for Seep point motors too for the same reasons. I'm sure it is the same even if you use microswitches operated by the point tie-bar or the operating pin, but I don't have experience of these.

 

In some places now I've started using latching relays rather than PL13s. The relays are DPDT and can be operated in conjunction with the point motor. Cost is less than the PL13 and one relay manages both the frogs of a crossover so I've found it's a cheaper option in these circumstances where otherwise two PL13s would be needed.

[Kallaroonian]

Do the users of microswitches and relays have any details of the products bought ?

 

ie ideally the product code from Maplin :-) but failing that the current and voltage specs of the products.

 

Presumably something that is rated at say 3A and 16-24V?

 

Also presuumably you'd want a latching relay of some sort so that when you're applying an instantaneous voltage to a solenoid point motor and a relay in parallel the action of the relay would remain in place after the control signal was removed ie the relay would continue to provide power routing (and possibly panel indication) correctly.

 

Is this the normal action for a relay or would a regular relay revert to previous contdition once the point control signal was removed? I feel this might be a dumb question somehow but need to ask.

 

thks

 

Mark

[RFS]

These are the latching relays that I am using with some of my points in lieu of PL13s. They need a momentary current to switch like the point motor, but then stay in that position until the next change. They do require a DC voltage so if you're using an AC power supply to change the points then you'll need rectifier diodes on the supply to the relay.

 

I'm using the 12volt ones here, mounted on a piece of copper-clad circuit board with some screw terminals and the diodes. Total cost of materials is about £2.50.

 

Latching relays

 

Bear in mind also that if you are using these relays for frog polarity switching on Peco Electrofrog points, you must have modified the points by cutting the link between the blades and the frog and bonding the switch rail to the stock rail, as documented in the likes of Brian Lambert's web-site. Otherwise the frog will be powered from both ends, and the instantaneous changeover of the relay can lead to a momentary short circuit if it switches the polarity of the frog whilst the blades are still in contact with the stock rail.

[Pete the Elaner]

Do the users of microswitches and relays have any details of the products bought ?

 

ie ideally the product code from Maplin :-) but failing that the current and voltage specs of the products.

 

Presumably something that is rated at say 3A and 16-24V?

 

 

Maplin are 'The name you know' & charge a premium for this. I only use them in an emergency because they have a store just down the road from me.

 

Try Rapid Their stuff is just as good & only about half the price. I've never used any relays though.

[Peter Bedding]

I agree with the earlier comments.

 

My experience is that Peco PL-10 series point motors are as solid and reliable as the AK47.

 

I have had some success with the PL13 switch, but never 100%, and life is just too short to keep trying to make of them what cannot be done.

 

For my current project, I am (at this date) installing PL10E under Peco Code 75 Electrofrog points, using two banks of lever switches: PL26 to change direction of the point blades, and PL 23 for manual power routing.

 

If this should fail then I shall take up bungee jumping.

 

B)

[pointstaken]

I'm using A5H switches from Gaugemaster, with Seep point motors and a CDU. The A5H switch is a sub-miniature switch On-sprung centre Off-On, and works fine. The Peco points have a centre spring which really needs a CDU to provide the oomph to switch the point.

 

 

Dennis

[Kallaroonian]

I like the idea of going with the DIL relays mounted in standard 16pin IC sockets. The whole thing could be pre-wired on a loom in the workshop and then dropped into place on the layout. If the relay ever failed a new one could be quickly swapped in via the convenience of the socket mounting arrangement.

 

Plus there is no requirement to align microswitches

 

rgds

[Karhedron]

Plus there is no requirement to align microswitches

The one problem here is that if the motor fails to throw the point, you could end up with a short as the relay will still switch. The relay is independent of the mechanical operation of the point. While this makes it easier, it is also a potential source of problems.

[Kallaroonian]

That's a valid concern. I hadn't thought of that.

 

I suppose it's a trade-off between the risk of that happening (and associated consequences) vs the relative ease of assembly (ie off site and no alignment issues) and the ease of replacement if the problem does occur.

 

Something to think about though thanks

[RFS]

The one problem here is that if the motor fails to throw the point, you could end up with a short as the relay will still switch. The relay is independent of the mechanical operation of the point. While this makes it easier, it is also a potential source of problems.

 

If you've modified the point, by isolating the frog and bonding the blade rail to the stock rails (essential if you're using a fast, relay-controlled switch), then you cannot get a short circuit just because the point blades do not move over: the frog will be the wrong polarity of course, but it's still electrically isolated from all the other rails. A short can only occur if a loco traverses the points in this situation, assuming it manages to trigger a short before derailing due to the mispositioned blades...

[john new]

Frog switching options.

 

Thanks to earlier advice found on RMWeb with a Google search I bought the PL-15 rather than the PL-13. However this is the first PL-15 I've ever bought and there seems to be a bit missing from the packaging - the mentioned drive bush for the vertical drive arm.

 

No problem to fit a bit of plastic sleeving to the solenoid pin to replace the missing drive bush mentioned in the instructions but can anyone who has used one tell me what outside diameter that sleeve needs to be please?

[john new]

what outside diameter that sleeve needs to be please?

 

Answer now received from PECO so NFA required here; For the record the sleeve diameter is 6mm if anyone else has same issue/question in the future.