Cliches on layouts

[Dave777]

Here's a question, Can an accurate model of a real place have cliches? Or is it the sole preserve of freelance layouts?

 

If someone constructed the perfect model of Ashburton - accurate to the nth degree - it would still fall into some people's perceived cliché of the GWR BLT.

 

I'd actually say that freelance layouts present more opportunity to avoid the cliché - if you are modelling somewhere that really does have, say, a retaining wall right across the back of the station with a row of shops above it (to use one cliché that has been mentioned) then you're kinda stuck with having to model it. If you're not modelling an actual location then you're free to design it out...

[trisonic]

I can just see Jim modelling The Beatles crossing New Street - NOT (the time period is so wrong)..............

 

Best, Pete.

[Oldddudders]

If the wedding or funeral or whatever scene is based on a real event then yes to part a and no to part b. But see below.

If we take a cliche to be a cameo that has become overused and work backwards, we must eventually find the occassion when it first appeared. At that point and for it's next ? how many appearances, it cannot be a cliche. After that it becomes a cliche.

Who decides where and when?

Which leads me on to another question. Can something be a cliche in one location but not in another?

Bernard

Yes, perhaps it can. For example, these days one can get married in any number of other places than churches or register offices - so why not have the doomed happy couple and guests in the castle grounds?

[PGN]

If I were to model my local station, it would be quite prototypical to put a bus on the bridge over it as it is served by four routes each with a frequent service. But, since there are still no buses on the bridge most of the time, surely it would still be clichéd?

 

Paul

 

 

If we were to follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion, would we not have to argue that having trains running through the station is also a cliche, because most of the time there are no trains there in fact?

[Pennine MC]

If we were to follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion, would we not have to argue that having trains running through the station is also a cliche, because most of the time there are no trains there in fact?

 

The trains do move, the bus is there all the time.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Which leads me on to another question. Can something be a cliche in one location but not in another?

 

Mount Fuji, Cherry Blossom, Temples and Bullet trains on Japanese layouts...

[28XX]

If we were to follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion, would we not have to argue that having trains running through the station is also a cliche, because most of the time there are no trains there in fact?

 

If you chose not to have trains, for that or any other reason, you could build a layout at an even smaller scale than T. It would still be a railway model and have such glories as the Forth Bridge or a 13 platform terminus....

[PGN]

Aha!

 

Another modelling cliche that I had forgotten all about made its presence known to me at an exhibition at the weekend ... on a layout which took one of the exhibition's trophies, no less.

 

Sheeted wagons, with a sagging sheet and a little pool of water in the middle!

[coachmann]

I think the idea that CJF ever pushed GWR BLT's really is a myth. There is nothing in his editorials nor in the layouts featured to support that myth and in the Railway Modeller of the 1950s and 1960s

 

I find it interesting that having read through back-copies of 1950s and 1960s Railway Modeller, people today find there was no bias towards the GWR. It proves how impossible it is to know how things were if one wasn't there and that going off back copies of magazines is not conclusive evidence. It is what wasn't written that puts the meat on the bones.

 

As one who was there and met Cyril Freezer and the regulars at the Manchester Exhibitions in the 1960s, I can assure everyone that the perception at the time was that RM had a GWR bias. At one Xmas friendly-bantering session, Smokey Bourne, Steve Stratten, George Mellor and me accosted Cyril about forgetting the GWR 0-4-2 auto tank and auto trailer, and thinking in terms of a MR 0-4-4T and LMS push pull coach instead. Cyril said it was an interesting concept, though he needed some persuading.

 

What did happen was the LMS Society was gaining ground and producing articles on locomotive liveries, carriages and wagons, many of which did appear in RM.

[Ozexpatriate]

This thread makes me uneasy - probably because though a couple of happy accidents in the late 1970s I became interested in modelling the pre-war GWR and stuck with it to this day. I admit it, perhaps I lack imagination, but I'm caught up in the mystique of the Great Way 'Round. It's comfortable and I enjoy it still. Extrapolating some themes here, everything I own is a cliché.

 

I'm not usually one to quote chapter and verse but sometimes when it says exactly what you want to express, it's compelling. So in that spirit:

 

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (New International Version, ©2010)

 

9 What has been will be again,

what has been done will be done again;

there is nothing new under the sun.

 

Is this always bad or wrong or something to be avoided? I say no.

 

Reproducing a railway in miniature is inevitably going to create a lot of similar content. And indeed when things are missing (famously around here, trap points and 'proper' signalling*) it is rightly pointed out.

 

If a commercial structure is a good representation of what I am looking for I don't see that as something to be avoided, simply because other people have also used the same kit. I don't intend to exhibit anything I build and some of the cameos that we see frequently, are interesting to non-railway afficionados that might visit. (They don't attend the exhibition circuit.)

 

If the intent is to build an exhibition layout to demonstrate to the modelling fraternity, then yes, we value creativity and sigh at something that appears derivative of someone else's ideas. That's understandable - slavish copies of other layouts is not what visitors to an exhibition want to see for their admission fee.

 

I remember a permanent layout exhibit behind glass from what has to be the mid-1970s where the lights dimmed every five minutes for 'nightime'. It was built with lots of German stuff that had every cliché in the book: a wedding, a funeral, a fire with the fire brigade attending, the man running for the bus/tram whatever etc. It was engaging, but I respect the perspective that it would be tiresome indeed to see this on every exhibited layout.

 

But if you have a boy on a street with a football or a pool of water in a canvas tarpaulin on a sheeted wagon these things are very everyday, and it doesn't feel fair to castigate them as clichéd.

 

Yes we value creativity and decry plagiarism, but at the end of the day, there really is nothing new under the sun.

 

 

* when to use ground discs versus post-mounted signals remains a deep mystery to me to this day.

[Baby Deltic]

I really try and avoid cliche's on a layout. I'm not being a kill joy or a boring old fart here and most of the members who've had to put up with me on rmweb for the past five or so years will know I've got a good sense of humour. However, I do take my modelling seriously, as do my partners in crime, and I think cliche's and puns lower the image of the layout to an extent. People stop seeing it as a model and think of it more as a trainset with nice buildings. If there is going to be something to lighten the image, it might just be a few meths drinkers on a bomb site or someone getting a kicking behind a derelict building, but not puns like 'bodgitt and scarper DIY' or suchlike.

[Mattmaz]

But surely one person's perceived "cliche" is the next person's idea of humour? It doesn't personally offend me when done tastefully. One thing that does get me going though is those irritating little cars shooting around a layout guided by hidden magnetic track or whatever. Clever concept, but given the option of seeing them whizz around at 0-60 in warp speed , I'd rather see stationary road vehicles on a layout.

Matt

[Baby Deltic]

The thing that does irritate me is when you have the cliche GWR BLT complete with the entire Chipperfield's Circus who just happen to be set up in town and of course, the children waving from the bridge. B)

[coachmann]

Cliche......I nominate the Bachmann BR Mk.I......The universal coach...

[Pacific231G]

I find it interesting that having read through back-copies of 1950s and 1960s Railway Modeller, people today find there was no bias towards the GWR. It proves how impossible it is to know how things were if one wasn't there and that going off back copies of magazines is not conclusive evidence. It is what wasn't written that puts the meat on the bones.

Well I was around then as well albeit quite young. I do remember a certain bias towards the GWR amongst modellers at that time (perfectly natural for Britain's best railway !!) but it wasn't because CJF was pushing it any more than he was the BLT. Talking to him later in his life I think he'd heard the same accusations so often that he'd become convnced of his own guilt on both counts.

 

I think the real reason for the enduring popularity of the GWR was simply that it was the only railway to keep its original identity right up to nationalisation so it had plenty of time to gather a great deal of brand loyalty. Serving all those holiday destinations didn't hurt either.

 

David

[28XX]

Well I was around then as well albeit quite young. I do remember a certain bias towards the GWR amongst modellers at that time (perfectly natural for Britain's best railway !!) but it wasn't because CJF was pushing it any more than he was the BLT. Talking to him later in his life I think he'd heard the same accusations so often that he'd become convnced of his own guilt on both counts.

 

I think the real reason for the enduring popularity of the GWR was simply that it was the only railway to keep its original identity right up to nationalisation so it had plenty of time to gather a great deal of brand loyalty. Serving all those holiday destinations didn't hurt either.

 

David

 

(My bold) and beyond, 63 years and counting, we still have lower quadrant semaphores in Droitwich, Worcester, Evesham to name just a few places. One day the West will rise again!

[Rugd1022]

(My bold) and beyond, 63 years and counting, we still have lower quadrant semaphores in Droitwich, Worcester, Evesham to name just a few places. One day the West will rise again!

 

Oh not half squire.... Network Rail have just installed two brand new lower quadrants at Banbury! Not to mention the one installed at Truro a while back..... softly, softly, catchy monkey

 

Mike - re the ubiquitous Bachmann Mk1... I think it's a conspiracy you know, those Barwell chappies must have put some secret chemical in the paint finish, every time I look at mine and pick them up, I want to go out and buy some more. It's a bit like having a Chinese meal, then half an hour later you want another one...

 

Nidge

[37176]

Oh not half squire.... Network Rail have just installed two brand new lower quadrants at Banbury! Not to mention the one installed at Truro a while back..... softly, softly, catchy monkey

 

Mike - re the ubiquitous Bachmann Mk1... I think it's a conspiracy you know, those Barwell chappies must have put some secret chemical in the paint finish, every time I look at mine and pick them up, I want to go out and buy some more. It's a bit like having a Chinese meal, then half an hour later you want another one...

 

Nidge

 

Eh up Bruv, a brand new three signal semaphore gantry went up at Langham nr Oakham in 2004. Also, Rectory Junction box has a newish semaphore next to it too. Ours are all uppy, not downy though. :-)

[Flood]

My Chambers Dictionary describes a cliche as "something dulled by excessive use as an idea or situation". Therefore I would say it is all down to the individual as to what is "excessive use".

 

As an aside a gimmick is "a device to attract attention or publicity" and Glenn's and my layout seems to me to be overflowing with these (a failed HST, charter rakes and a snow plough turning up every day).

 

Oh, and yes we've got a Bus on a bridge as well!

[coachmann]

Not sure the popularity of the GWR was all down to it keeping its original identity up to 1947 and beyond. It was afterall easy for modellers to build GWR layouts because of availability of GWR loco kits in the 1960s and not at all easy to model anything similar for the other big four companies.

 

When I mentioned the MR 0-4-4T and an LMS push pull driving trailer to CJF, there were no kits for either and so it was mighty difficult to give any weight to persuasion.

[PGN]

But if you have a boy on a street with a football or a pool of water in a canvas tarpaulin on a sheeted wagon these things are very everyday, and it doesn't feel fair to castigate them as clichéd.

 

Ah - but that's the point. The pool of water in the tarpaulin wasn't everyday. In fact, it was so uneveryday as to be non-existent (and let them as says otherwise produce a photograph or two to prove it!)

 

The point is that sheets were there to protect wagon loads from the elements - and in particular water. If they were put on in such a way that water could gather, then like as not they would tear, allowing said pool to drain all over the contents of the wagon. Result - ruined load, compensation claim against the railway, and like as not instant dismissal for whoever put the sheet on so poorly as to allow that to happen.

 

Sheets should always have been put on in such a way as to present a convex aspect to any rain that happened to fall on them, so that it would run off. And loads should have been packed in such a way as to ensure that this was possible.

[Mikkel]

Ah - but that's the point. The pool of water in the tarpaulin wasn't everyday. In fact, it was so uneveryday as to be non-existent (and let them as says otherwise produce a photograph or two to prove it!)

That's a challenge I couldn't resist . On page 162-163 of "Edwardian Enterprise" by Norris, Beale and Lewis, there is a double spread photo that is a mine of information. It is taken from an elevated angle and shows some 200 wagons and vans from the GWR and other companies in sidings.

 

Many of the Opens are sheeted, and a good number of these have the sheets curving downwards in a concave fashion. The angle of the photo means that it is only possible to look to the "bottom" of these drooping sheets on one of the Opens near the front, but this does seem to me to have a pool of water in it. Judging by the similar arrangement of the tarpaulins on other wagons in the sidings, I would guess these also have it.

[22xx]

My Chambers Dictionary describes a cliche as "something dulled by excessive use as in idea or situation". Therefore I would say it is all down to the individual as to what is "excessive use".

 

As an aside a gimmick is "a device to attract attention or publicity" and Glenn's and my layout seems to me to be overflowing with these (a failed HST, charter rakes and a snow plough turning up every day).

 

Oh, and yes we've got a Bus on a bridge as well!

 

So how to run City of Truro without resorting to cliche or gimmick ... ?

[Western Scottish]

Surely the number of branchline termini that immediately run into tunnels is a bit of a Cliche, or even the number of tunnels on any layout. They really are not that prevalent on the real thing

[Glorious NSE]

My Chambers Dictionary describes a cliche as "something dulled by excessive use as in idea or situation". Therefore I would say it is all down to the individual as to what is "excessive use".

 

That sounds like a good description to me. It's not a cliche because it's unrealistic neccesarily, it's a cliche because seemingly everyone is doing it.

 

If you accept layout genre's as cliche'd then i'd say that the GWR BLT was when I was a kid, but now isn't - I think it would still be, except that most folk are now building them with BR loco's on. Down here the BR(S) branch station would qualify but I think that's a local trend rather than a national one!

 

1980s West Highland Line layouts (37/4's and 156s) were a cliche for a while when I was in my teens.

 

There was also a phase where every "modern image" (we still used that phrase back then) layout had to have a model of "Doncaster Enterprise" in LNER green, i'm pretty sure it was a legal requirement.

 

The post-privatisation loco depot has now definately become a cliche, especially ones which apparently serve all of the FOCs.

 

Cornish Clay I think has definately been there too...I love the genre personally but I will nominate it as i'm pretty sure it generates more than it's own weight in layouts - surely after all this time we should have had a few Boulby potash based layouts if all were equal - beautiful scenery, regular traffic, interesting wagons.....just me then?

 

None of that means that there weren't some very nice, attractive, interesting and well modelled layouts in these genre's even when they were active cliche's, but just that there were also plenty of others about that probably weren't so nice, attractive, interesting and well modelled which kinda bored the rest of folk...

 

Ultimately if it keeps the builders happy then fair enough though, it's about their enjoyment of the hobby not everyone elses.

 

Cliche's in scenes? Sorry, not a fan of the bus on the bridge, unless there is also a bus stop on the bridge or some other reason for it to be stopped there....

 

(like a car crash, or a house on fire presumably...)