Kempenfelt Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I've been dabling in P4 now for a few years and despite starting quite a few different projects, to date I stil haven't managed to finish any of them! One such project that was started and has even been running on a rolling road with the help from a pair of croc clips, is a High Level 3f Jinty chassis. Having found the reciept I discovered to my horror that I actually started this chassis 5 years ago! With the start of the New Year and a lot of arm twisting from my fellow Glevum members I thought it would make a good New Years resolution to get on and finish this chassis together with a few of my other projects! Nothing like annoucing my intensions on RMWeb to pile on the pressure! The Jinty Chassis is my first attempt at any sort of loco building and as a result my initial intensions were to build it as per the instructions. Being P4 it was going to require compensation or springing and with the kit designed for compensation on the leading and middle axle's, and driven off a rear fixed axle, so this was the route I decided to take. Inspired by the work of Morgan Gilbert of the Glevum S4 group, I decided that my first diversion from the kit as intended would be the inclusion of a keeper plate. This would allow me to drop out the wheels for painting and maintanence purposes. I also wanted to include a version of Morgan's buss bar arrangement that allows a removable alternative pick up arrangement to the plunger pick ups that the kit was designed for. Unfortunately because I took the decision to modify the chassis partway through the build the driven axle remains fixed and cannot be dropped out from the chassis. The only other modification I have made to date is the replacement on the supplied MJT hornblocks. I originally tried the London Road version's but found these were too imposing on the dummy inside valve gear, instead plumping for the Brassmasters milled versions. To bring the build up to date, the basic chassis has been assembled together with the gearbox, modified spring carriers/buss bar supports and brake gear. To recomence the build, the first task was to bed in the chassis to ensure it ran smoothly, to do this i used Shiney Sinks which has a fine grit like quality, discovered whilst using it to clean the chassis. I have now turned my attention to the forming of the buss bars. The first 2 pictures show the forming of the buss bar. This was bent up from 1.0mm x 0.5mm brass bar supplied by Eileens Emporium and formed against a mk4 line diagram! The next 2 pictures show the buss bars once soldered to spring carriers (made from copper clad) both attached to the chassis and with the keeper plate detached. The next 4 pictures show the chassis partially assembled with wheels and brakegear in place. Please note that the rear off the buss bars haven't been trimmed to length as I still need to play around with their final length, I may also add an additional support if required. With the inclusion of the slide bars I have come across a small snag in that the leading axle clashes with the underside of the slide bars. The instructions do mention this and suggest leaving out the lower slide bars closest to the frames, I suspect I will have to follow this suggestion. I haven't yet tried this with the compensation beam in place but this will be one of the next steps. Following this I need to make and locate the wiper pick ups, the latter being harder than first thought due to the brakegear and ashpan etc getting in the way. Thanks for reading, in the meantime I better do a bit more work to ensure the survival of this thread and my new years resolution! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Can you have it finished with A.J's fitted for the SWAG RM open day? Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Now that's a challenge Gordon! There's a chance I could have it running with AJ's, haven't thought about chipping it yet though! Either way it's a good target to aim for! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrowroad Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Paul are you bringing it along on tuesday? Robin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 That's the plan Robin, after all I did promise that I would make some progress! There's a few other bits to bring along too, including the 4f parts, Wickham trolley and a few more of Craig's chassis's! I'd like to think i've been slightly productive of the Christmas period! I would also like to think that the Jinty will have progressed a bit further by Tuesday night. Need to decide the order of the remaining jobs first! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Hi Paul, HNY to you. Glad to see you have done some modelling over the holidays and looking forward to seeing what you have achieved. Last time I saw the Jinty we both decided that the driving wheel axles seemed a bit short for P4. Have you resolved this? If not I can have a look around and see if I have some spare axles. What length are they now and what do they need to be? Cheers....Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Had you used split axles you wouldn't have the problem of making pickups........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted January 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2011 Ah yes, but by fitting pick-ups he hasn't had the problem of making split axles... Looking good Paul, keep the momentum going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Ahh, a man true to his word...nice one Paul. Glad to see your butterfly approach to modelling has at last settled on one flower. Very impressive stuff. Look forward to seeing it run. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2011 your butterfly approach to modelling has at last settled on one flower Well put, Mike! Very glad to see you making more progress, Paul - I too look forward to seeing the completed loco on the DRAG Mk 2 test track some time, or ....... even on a layout of your own??!! (BTW, can you take the chips out easily, so you can run it on Callow Lane, should you wish to come and help operate sometime in the future? ;) ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipbadger Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Tim, Modern chips are 'invisible' to analogue systems so Paul can play on your layout without any problem :-) Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I've been dabling in P4 now for a few years and despite starting quite a few different projects, to date I stil haven't managed to finish any of them! ..... Why be ashamed? There are loads of us like you out there who use P4/S4 for experimentation rather than because they want to finish anything. Pleased to make your acquaintance! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 Hi Paul, HNY to you. Glad to see you have done some modelling over the holidays and looking forward to seeing what you have achieved. Last time I saw the Jinty we both decided that the driving wheel axles seemed a bit short for P4. Have you resolved this? If not I can have a look around and see if I have some spare axles. What length are they now and what do they need to be? Cheers....Morgan Thanks Morgan, i'm still using the same axles at the moment and my thoughts were to Loctite to leading and middle drivers as one of the next tasks. I wasn't going to Loctite the fixed driven rear axle until the rest of the chassis is running and painted. If you can bring some replacement axles tomorrow that would be ace! I'll get the calipers out and PM you the current lengths. I've got the 4f wheel pack to hand so wil use this as a comparison. Had you used split axles you wouldn't have the problem of making pickups........ Thanks Tim, very useful! Actually as I wasn't sure what I wanted the spec of this chassis to be when I started, I'm fairly happy with the result's so far. There certainly are improvements that could be made and different approaches used had I started again! Mainly using CSB instead of compensation and allowing the rear axle and gearbox to be removeable. I do like the keeper plate method and wiper pick-ups as copied from Morgan and will use this as my prefered method for the time being. Split axles may however be an experiment for the future. I do need to finish something first however before I start experimenting with alternatives, at least thats what my Glevum buddies keep telling me! Thanks for trying to keep me on track guys! B) Ah yes, but by fitting pick-ups he hasn't had the problem of making split axles... Looking good Paul, keep the momentum going. Thanks Paul, support much appreciated! About time we ganged up against Tim's oppinions! Well put, Mike! Very glad to see you making more progress, Paul - I too look forward to seeing the completed loco on the DRAG Mk 2 test track some time, or ....... even on a layout of your own??!! (BTW, can you take the chips out easily, so you can run it on Callow Lane, should you wish to come and help operate sometime in the future? ;) ) Thanks Tim and Mike! Yes it is nice to feel like I'm making progress! I'd be honoured to have running rights on Callow Lane Tim, and permission to handle the controls too! The Jinty is due to become 47465 (a number you should be familier with!), don't chalk her up on the roster just yet though! Think a layout of my own is some way off for the time being, the plans remain the same however, with a few more Jinty's required! B) Tim, Modern chips are 'invisible' to analogue systems so Paul can play on your layout without any problem :-) Tony Extremely useful to know that Tony! My plans are to go DCC to fit in with the plans of the Jinty's main base for the foreseable future. I do however hope to have weekend excursions to Brinkley, Callow Lane and other DC layouts. I'm still a bit nieve where DCC is concerned so is there a particular chip/function I need to allow DC running or is this function now standard? Why be ashamed? There are loads of us like you out there who use P4/S4 for experimentation rather than because they want to finish anything. Pleased to make your acquaintance! Lol, nice to be accepted Ivan! It's definitely one of the more laid back P4 circles to be part of, would be nice to gain entry to the "finished something" club too though! Thanks to all my readers and contributers, hopefully I'll manage to keep the updates coming! HNY to you all too! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted January 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2011 Thanks Paul, support much appreciated! About time we ganged up against Tim's oppinions! Just a bit of fun Tim, don't take it the wrong way permission to handle the controls. Hope you were saluting when you asked permission... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2011 Hope you were saluting when you asked permission... Well, junior officers were normally in charge of the frigate 'on watch', when their senior officers were asleep, drunk (or both!), until the day when they were lucky enough to command their own leaky sloop! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 That looks rather good Paul, you are going to show up my attempts I suspect! I concur with your PM that the injector does look a little chunky, we will have to see whether it can be filed down a tad. Having said this, matting the paint down and even a light dusting of grim will make is fade into the background somewhat. Had you picked up that Wild Swan are about to publish an LMS Loco Profile on the Jinty's - see My link. Now you have made me guilty, so I have plonked the Ultrascales in an out of the box Jinty (I will post on my workbench in time). We will have a comparison at Southampton; High Level, GEO Norton or Bachmann - I only hope that Bachmann do not win! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Oh, a possible request for "foreign" locos running on the layout - we'll see what happens when the two 3Fs meet on the 3' radius curves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Oh, a possible request for "foreign" locos running on the layout - we'll see what happens when the two 3Fs meet on the 3' radius curves That's a good point Tim! Because i've used the P4 spacers in the kit together with the BM hornblocks that straddle the frames, i'm not too optomistic about the Jinty's chances against a 3ft curve! It would be a nice suprise if it does make it however! I better pull my finger out so we can find out! Thanks Mark for the book reference, I was aware but have yet to make the purchase, I have however squirrelled away some Christmas money specifically for this purpose! If the Bachy model wins on performance it truely will be a sad day! I better ensure that it isn't the case! Prehaps a bit of covert comparison or an adequate excuse should be engineered just in case! B) Best Wishes! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not too much progress to report on the Jinty just yet! The chassis has been cast under the eyes of several CME's of the Glevum S4 group with the feedback all positive, thanks chaps! I have decided that an additional bracket at the rear of the chassis will be useful to support the buss bar. I have also come to the conclusion that one of the buss bars may need to be tweaked slightly towards the centre of the chassis to avoid making contact with one of the mounting screws. I think I should be able to successfully insulate the buss bar once this is done, I’m sure I’ll find out soon enough though! In the meantime I thought I'd display a bit more of my produce from the festive period! Firstly you may have seen on Pinkmouse's thread that I’d made a start on the inside valve gear of a Brassmaster's 4f. This is to be my second chassis build (and first complete loco kit) that I’ve attempted, hopefully it will one day masquerade as long term S&D resident 44560. The following photos show some of the very small pieces that I have assembled to date. Please view Al's thread http://www.rmweb.co....post__p__131685 for a bit more info about this kit, he's made quite a bit more progress on his than I have! I just had the urge to make something as appose to trying to work out where I was going with the Jinty! Next up is the N Brass Wickham Trolley. The drive mechanism is going to take a bit of working out, so I’ve just done the ends so far. I’ve since found out that grill and the rear panel are both incorrect for my prototype, again a bit more thought required here! Thanks to Tim V for the spotting, better I find out now as appose to when it would be harder to correct! As I‘ve just advised in another thread, it pays to choose your prototype first and get some pics! I still haven’t got many of the latter! Finally I‘ve been assembling a few Craig Welsh 1923 RCH wagon chassis’s, including a partial demo at the NAGNAG S4 area group and Mendip MRG just to show how easy they really are to assemble. Definitely beats my previous preferred method of Masokits components hands down! I keep mentioning commission to Craig but it always seams to fall on deaf ears! The last pic is a wagon I made earlier this year, however It helps to give an idea of the final look of these etches. Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 A slight diversion from my WB to a few piccies I took from my latest visit to Barrow Road earlier in the week. If Kempenfelt's Works can actually deliver, then Barrow Road is due to be the initial allocation for any stock! Good progress as always is being made on Robin's masterpiece. Highlight's of the latest meeting included seeing the reappearence of Robin's Crab (currently awaiting a new chassis) and 2 visitors from Newport, Mike's Royal Scot and Std 5. Unfortunately I didn't get any pic's of the visitors but both were very nice to see! Anyway, i'll hand you over to the pics! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Holt Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Paul, Really enjoyable thread. The Jinty chassis looks to be coming along nicely and I hope you're justly proud of your achievement and encouraged to go on with further projects! I fully support your adoption of keeper plates - it makes assembly/disassemblt, mainteneance, final painting, etc so much easier. I've used this method on most of my locos (although not the Brassmasters chassis). Fixed driving axles result in locos lurching over slight track irregularities and can lead to instability, esspecially on 4-6-0's (my first efforts suffered these problems and I converted them to fully compensted with load bearing trucks and bogies and solved both problems). Fully floating compensation, springs or CBS suspension gives a far better ride, in my view. I've not had any problems locating or fitting wiper pick-ups. Bus-bars, as you've fitted, make this even easier. I hide the contact with the wheel either behind the brake blocks or, where there are side tanks, I have the pick-ups on top of the wheels. I use 0.3 brass wire with a couple of coils to increase flexibility. I know some people swear by split axles to avoid pick-ups all together. However, this method introduces the need to make acurate axles and to insulate the frames from each other and the body. This latter may be quite easy for inside cylinder locos, as long as you don't want to represent the inside motion, but becomes more complicated on outside cylinder/valve gear locos - although I'm sure it can be done, but I imagine (no practical experience) it is at least as difficult as fitting pick-ups! Anyway, best of luck with this and all future loco projects. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Dave, Many thanks for your kind comments! It's through talking to people like yourself that i've got to this stage in the first place and yes I am very pleased with it so far. Interesting you mention you haven't done this to the BM chassis's. Is this due to difficulties with adapting these kits or did you just find a preferable alternative? I have a couple of their 4.6.0's hidden away for a rainy day, together with the 4f mentioned above (and another awaiting in store) so it would be good to be aware of any neccessary mods required before I make a start. Likewise I can't help but be impressed by the ride of a fully sprung loco! Even fully compensated chassis's still have an element of lurching apparent to my eye's, but when fully sprung they appear to glide through trackwork! The buss bar's have been incorporated with the pick up's in mind, both in terms of maintenance and for ease of location. As soon as I saw you'd responded to this thread my thoughts turned towards plucking your brains about pick-ups, so I was delighted to see that you've already gone down this path. I knew from speaking to you in the past that you hide the pick ups behind the brake blocks, however do you still wipe onto the edge of the tyre or do you prefer to wipe on to the backs? Assuming the former, how do you avoid shorting on the brakes? My brakes are detachable as one unit but are not insulated. Yes I can see the advantages of split axle, however the desire to include the inside valve gear on both the Jinty and the 4f tends to rule this option out. I'd also prefer to keep to main chassis as designed to maintain squareness, I wouldn't be too happy to cut through the frame spacers of any future build at this stage in my model making career although I may still give it a go one day! I'm currently borrowing a scrawker to finish isolating my buss bars, hopefully this should be completed before the days out! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Holt Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Paul, The BM issue is just one of laziness! I'm sure they could be modified to use a keeper plate arrangement - I just didn't bother. My pick-ups-behind-the-brake-block bear on the back of the rim, rather than on the flange, so shorting onto the etched brake blocks is not an issue. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My pick-ups-behind-the-brake-block bear on the back of the rim, rather than on the flange, so shorting onto the etched brake blocks is not an issue. Dave Don't you get issues with dirty pick ups using this method? Mike Paul Pleased to see your still at the same project...how about some more piccys... M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Next up is the N Brass Wickham Trolley. The drive mechanism is going to take a bit of working out, so I’ve just done the ends so far. When you do I'll be interested - I still have one in a box somewhere waiting on inspiration that hasn't entered my thick scull. There so many Wickham variants (alterations) that almost any general shape will do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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