RMweb Premium polybear Posted January 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2011 Paul, This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread. I'm very interested in your keeper plates for the High Level chassis - I've had a few crankpin issues with my High Level 57xx and the ability to drop the wheelsets out without removing wheels from axles by having removable springs is definitely a modification I'd like to incorporate. Hi, What doe the "keeper plate" method actually involve/consist of please? I'm a little mystified Thanks. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi, What doe the "keeper plate" method actually involve/consist of please? I'm a little mystified Thanks. Brian Its the detached bit http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2011/post-1606-0-20668100-1293998847_thumb.jpg and stops the axleboxes and wheelset dropping out of the chassis when you lift up the loco.. Its not quite as useful in Paul's Jinty as is can normally be due to the rear axle still being fixed in this High Level chassis. The later designs put the compensation beams between the rear two axles allowing the fromt one to pivot as well and making it easier to fit axleboxes and hornguides to all 3 axles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted January 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2011 Its the detached bit http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2011/post-1606-0-20668100-1293998847_thumb.jpg and stops the axleboxes and wheelset dropping out of the chassis when you lift up the loco.. Hi Craig, Thanks for the reply. I'd guessed it was the photo you linked to; however I'm still unsure what the keeper plate idea actually consists of, and more importantly how does one create such a device? Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi Craig, Thanks for the reply. I'd guessed it was the photo you linked to; however I'm still unsure what the keeper plate idea actually consists of, and more importantly how does one create such a device? Brian In a kit built chassis its normally the cosmetic springs either individually or linked together as in Paul's example by copperclad and then screwed on to brackets on the chassis. RTR also normally has a plastic keeper plater screwed on the bottom with a surround for the gears, a lot simpler with RTR where you don't have daylight between frames! I'm sure Paul can do some closeups of his sometime after midnight . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for holding the fort Craig! Brian, thanks for the interest, i'll now do my best to explain my modifications! Well first i'll start off with the "why a keeper plate" explanation. The keeper plate(s) (as Craig mentioned) are purely the bits which retain the wheels. RTR loco's also tend to use a keeper plate however it is usually made of plastic. The keeper plate allows me to dismantle and release the wheels and axle boxes for maintenance. It also aids painting as i can dismatle the chassis into its component parts and ensure there is a decent coat of paint behind the wheels and ensure the horn guides are free of paint. In hindsight I would have used CSB and a full length keeper plate as this would have not only allowed me to drop out the leading and middle axles, but also the rear axle and more importantly the gearbox. This would mean minimal effort heaven forbid you get a problem with the gearbox. A further advantage of the keeper plate arrangement is the inclusion of buss bars. These are the two brass strips that run parallel to the chassis and have the advantage of being able to mount the pick ups. This means that you can either take off the whole assembly to tweak the pick-ups, or they can simply be removed for dismantling which avoids any unintended adjustment to the pick-ups whilst dropping out the wheels. To see a good explanation of how to construct a keeper plate I refer you to Morgan's Black 5 build on the old thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37389 This shows a slightly different way of making a keeper plate but does a good job of explaning the construction. It was upon seeing Morgan's models complete with keeper plates that encouraged me to include a keeper plate on my own build. I believe this system has also been promoted by John Hayes in MRJ So onto the build sequence for the jinty keeper plate. Firstly I started off with some suitable copperclad, slightly on the thick side due to ensure that the keeper plate wont fall apart during dismantling and reassembly. Next measure the distance between the frames and roughly cut (slightly wider than required) some copperclad to form the brackets. Remember for every bracket you will require 2 pieces of copperclad as the top piece it soldered to the chassis whilst the bottom piece becomes part of the keeper plate itself. Lay one piece of copperclad on top of the other and drill a hole through the middle. The bottom of the hole is countersunk and with a screw popped through the hole, a nut is soldered to the top piece of copperclad. Now that the 2 pieces of copperclad are temporarily screwed together the copperclad can be filed to size, it will need to be a close but not tight fit in the chassis. One feature of the High Level chassis is that the springs that are etched onto the frames are inreased in thickness by the addition of a couple of overlays. I soldered these overlays together but didn't attach them to the springs on the frames just yet. Instead I clamped the overlays in place, in turn this allowed me to position the copperclad (between the frames, resting on top of the overlays). Whilst keeping the copperclad in place, the bottom piece is soldered to the overlays, whilst the top piece is soldered to the inside of the frame. Ensure at all times that the two pieces of copperclad are not soldered together (A piece of cigarette paper can be sanwiched between the copperclad to reduce the chances of this happening) At this stage I removed the screw from the 2 pieces of copperclad. This resulted in the top bracket correctly mounted in the chassis, whilst the lower part of the bracket had the spring overlays attached but remained completely separate to the chassis. At this stage it is worth mentioning that I made 4 copperclad pairs, these were located just above spring hangers for the leading and middle springs. The next job is to cut the spring detail off the chassis and attach it to the spring overlays now attached to the copperclad. When the keeper plate is located back in the frames it should give the appearence that the springs are still part of the chassis, however it can be removed to drop the horn blocks into the horn guides. The final job I had to do on the keeper plate was to cut the slots for the compensation beam. These were carefully marked up and cut with a tenon saw. I have since attached the buss bars which is where i started ths thread from. I hope this makes sense and feel free to ask further questions if I still haven't explained myself clearly. I'll also have a dig around and see if I took any pictures when I actually made the keeper plate. Best Wishes Paul P.s. Craig you weren't too far out on the timing although I had planned to finish the write up a lot earlier than this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Folks, Here's another useful link to our old forum which shows what the next step of making the keeper plate / buss bar arangement is, pick-ups! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=38968&p=604741&sid=3cf8759788f61b4fefa1741cb4a69c95#p604741 This again is Morgan's solution and is the main component of the next stage of planned progress on the Jinty. That said the Jinty may have to be briefly posponed whilst I work on project 'X' B) Purely a need to know basis at the moment, but if successful all will be revealed in time! Be assured, if it all crash' and burns, you aint read nuffin! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Purely a need to know basis at the moment, but if successful all will be revealed in time! I don't suppose project "X" will be an all out effort to finish the Jinty will it? Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't suppose project "X" will be an all out effort to finish the Jinty will it? Morgan Crikey don't suggest Paul should finish something now . Sorry Paul . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Crikey don't suggest Paul should finish something now . Sorry Paul . Comm'on boys, this guy needs more carrot and a little less stick, mind you, after his comments about my age I'm inclined to join in. So when is the next update? Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks for holding the fort Craig! Brian, thanks for the interest, i'll now do my best to explain my modifications! > > > I hope this makes sense and feel free to ask further questions if I still haven't explained myself clearly. I'll also have a dig around and see if I took any pictures when I actually made the keeper plate. Best Wishes Paul Hi Paul, Many thanks for the reply; any photos you may have would be of great interest to all I'm sure ! Regards, Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi Paul, Many thanks for the reply; any photos you may have would be of great interest to all I'm sure ! Regards, Brian Hi Brian, I had a look through my picture files last night and unfortunately the work connected to the keeper plates unfortunately appears to have been lost when my hard drive failed. I do however have a few pictures of the chassis in its first stages of infantcy before the keeperplate project was started (or probably even thought of!) and hope to publish these tonight. This series of photo also call for me to modify my account of producing keeperplates however as I obvioulsy did attach the etched overlays of the springs before the keeperplate brackets were installed. In which case I would have used these to assist in locating the keeperplate brackets and then cut the springs from the frams and re-attached to the keeperplate. Likewise i'll try and post some close-ups to help explain. In the meantime I haven't been too far away from the workbench, but mainly on the drawing board. Project "X" i'm ashamed to say Morgan isn't related to the completion of the Jinty, it is however aimed at getting one of my projects finished as appose to starting something new! B) On the subject of photo's I had the pleasure of being re-aquainted with model maker extraordinaire, Tony Reynalds yesterday. Assuming i'm ok to publish the photo's I'll post a few picture from his workbench too! I warn you now, his work is many leagues above many other's i've seen, truely inspirational! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Right folks, here are a few more pics as promised! First up we have a few of the Jinty in the early stages of construction. The frames were assembled using a jig comprising of a pair of parallel wooden beams and a set square. The hornguide cut outs were created by cutting the excess material (used when building the chassis rigid) down the middle and then bending backwards and forwards until the metal breaks. The cut outs were then cleaned up using a diamond file, trying to remove as little material as possible to keep the cut out square. I decided against using the supplied MJT hornblocks and instead substituted the Brassmaster's milled hornblocks. The hornblocks are numbered by small punch marks on the underside. Here we see the Bachmann body tried for size, also a bit of a feel good momment as all of a sudden you feel like you're getting somewhere! It was at this stage that I then decided to adapt the chassis to use a keeperplate. Next I thought I'd add a few close ups of the chassis as it is now, particularly of the details surrounding the keeper plate area as requested. If i've missed any details let me know and i'll see what I can do! I've just noticed that the guard iron's are bent out of shape, looks like i'll have to do a bit of remedial action there! These close up shots really do nothing to compliment my soldering skills! It always looks so nice and shiney when new, i'm not entirely sure what causes the tarnishing. I've used Shiny Sinks and an ultrasonic cleaner in the past to remove flux residue, perhaps this has assisted the tarnising process? Finally, here's a few pictures showing modelling at its very best! This is the work of Tony Reynalds and these are 2 out of 3 scratch built Patriot's to 7mm scale Tony is currently working on, displayed at the Bristol O gauge show last Sunday. I thank Tony for taking the effort to show off his remarkble skills to the rest of the modelling community, this in itself was well worth the entrance price! Check out the holes in the saftey valves! These I believe were made using a 10thou drill bit! There's no mistaking they're Patriot's think i'll just let the pictures do the rest of the talking! And on that bombshell........................... Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Very much enjoying this thread. I'm especially interested in what you do with the Wickham; I have one which I was planning to push with a converted Gandy Dancer, but never managed to get to run well enough to allow it to work. It's on hold pending reconsideration at the moment. Miss Prism was kind enough to direct me to this splended piece of micro engineering but I doubt my own capability to reproduce it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Very much enjoying this thread. I'm especially interested in what you do with the Wickham; I have one which I was planning to push with a converted Gandy Dancer, but never managed to get to run well enough to allow it to work. It's on hold pending reconsideration at the moment. Miss Prism was kind enough to direct me to this splended piece of micro engineering but I doubt my own capability to reproduce it. And in (proper) narrow gauge too I note - which is entirely prototypical since the Ffestiniog certainly had one converted from standard gauge in its early days (and may still for all I know). That's very impressive, as obviously, is the work of Tony Reynolds. Thanks for the photos Paul. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 And in (proper) narrow gauge too I note - which is entirely prototypical since the Ffestiniog certainly had one converted from standard gauge in its early days (and may still for all I know). That's very impressive, as obviously, is the work of Tony Reynolds. Thanks for the photos Paul. Adam They still have it but the Wickham wheels are deemed to be the wrong profile and so it never runs, its difficult to reprofile pressed steel wheels. The FR one is a different model to the one illustrated as it has longitudinal seating and a V twin, air cooled, side valve, JAP engine. From memory it is a Wickham Type 17. Phil Traxson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The FR one is a different model to the one illustrated as it has longitudinal seating and a V twin, air cooled, side valve, JAP engine. From memory it is a Wickham Type 17. Here for more details and photos Shame it has now been "restored" to look nothing like a Type 17. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi Chaps, On the subject of the Wickham I have found refering back to Tim V's old workbench extremely useful. If the link below works correctly it should take you to page 7 and the build starts near the bottom, a very interesting read i'm sure you'll all agree! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24138&start=150 Tim has adapted a Nigel Lawton chassis to run under his which is a pretty nifty solution, my intention however is to see if I can loose the drive mechanism completely under the floor with little or no sign of the motor. It'll take a bit of experimentation on my part but hopefully its possible, we shall have to wait and see! Thanks for the link to the Paul Boyd site too, another build that i'm aware of and refer back to frequently. Again another clever solution to the problem! For Wickham lovers out there, I found a cracking site a few nights back! 400+ images of Wickham's, all different types and sizes, with and without their clothes on! Unfortunately you'll have to wait until this evening for me to post the link as I don't have it to hand, it is a belter though! B) Turns out there's a treasure trove of Wickhams at the privately restored Rowden Mill, including 2 particularly nice Type 27's, both in a nice shade of BR (W) red/carmine for once! So a few questions from my end, what actually is the top speed of a Type 27 Wickham and generally what speed would they travel at? (Required to work out the ideal gear ratio) Also what shade of red/carmine were the BR (W) trolley's painted? Thanks for looking! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24138&start=167 links directly to the start of Tim's Wickham posts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Paul, I was interested in your use of Brassmasters hornblocks for the Jinty. Do they fit OK in the HighLevel hornguides and were your expectations of a better job realised? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 what actually is the top speed of a Type 27 Wickham I recall having read somewhere that the trolleys used for target practice (those sold to the WD in Kent) could reach a top speed of 25mph. Remember that they were unmanned and just let loose. I guess there were differences between the engines used the JAP 1100 & 1323 engines, the J.A.Prestwich & Co 1100 engine and the Ford 10hp Industrial being the most common. and generally what speed would they travel at? Much much slower ! I believe downhill with a following wind and light load 15 maybe 20mph. I believe they really struggled with a loaded trailer and heavy crew. But I guess anything is better than walking. A load of Wickham photos to be found here among many other places. There is a Yahoo site (which I wish they would replace with a proper web site because I HATE Yahoo - and its clunkyness and requirement to "join") that on the odd occasion I visit (from someone else's PC) has quite a few more details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Finally, here's a few pictures showing modelling at its very best! This is the work of Tony Reynalds and these are 2 out of 3 scratch built Patriot's to 7mm scale Tony is currently working on, displayed at the Bristol O gauge show last Sunday. I thank Tony for taking the effort to show off his remarkble skills to the rest of the modelling community, this in itself was well worth the entrance price! Check out the holes in the saftey valves! These I believe were made using a 10thou drill bit! There's no mistaking they're Patriot's think i'll just let the pictures do the rest of the talking! And on that bombshell........................... Best Wishes Paul Wow! It surely doesn't get any better than that, does it? We don't tend to see too much of Tony Reynalds' work in the press these days but he's one of the masters. Thanks for taking the time to share those photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ok, as promised here's the Fotopix link i was refering to earlier dedicated purely to Wickham Trolley's!!! http://roy-hennefer.fotopic.net/c779272.html Kenton, if you're interested there's a few pics of the Wickham's used for target practice towards the back of the Fotopix site! Thanks for the info and links! Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Kenton, if you're interested there's a few pics of the Wickham's used for target practice towards the back of the Fotopix site! Thanks for the info and links! I forgot to post this link to "All about the Wickham target trolleys at Lydd" earlier - I feel a NG automated layout calling :lol: (at least you could hide the motor behind the cardboard cut-out of a tank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Paul, I was interested in your use of Brassmasters hornblocks for the Jinty. Do they fit OK in the HighLevel hornguides and were your expectations of a better job realised? Regards David, My trials with the hornblocks started with the MJT versions supplied with the kit. I assembled these as per the instruction but found they needed a bit of work and quite a lot of cleaning up to get back to a nice sliding fit. My next move was to try some of the cast London Road hornguides and blocks. I quite like these, however I'd prefer it if the casting pip had been located elsewhere on the hornguide as appose to the face which mates to the inside of the frames. As it is you have to file the mating suface of the hornguide flat before soldering to the chassis. My reason not to use these was purely on the basis they would compromise the inside valve gear so in the meantime they have been put to one side awaiting a suitable project. This then lead me to the milled BM hornblocks after seeing the results of John Brighton and Morgan's work and upon advice from Tim V. The avantage of these hornblocks was the slimline nature, thus aiding the inclusion of the valve gear. I didn't do much to the frames apart from cleaning up the edge once i'd cut out the fixed axle locations (as mentioned above), as a result it was probably more luck than anything else that I achieved a good sliding fit. One word of warning I would give is that because the hornblocks stradle the frames, it reduces the side play on the wheels, this may restrict the layouts that I can actually run the Jinty on but we shall have to wait and see! I did use a file to slightly reduce the outside thickness of the the hornblocks. Other methods i've seen and would quite like to experiment with are the Gordon Ashton sprung hornblocks and the High Level versions. I haven't had experience of either to date so can't comment at the momment To conclude, I think it's worth trying a few different methods of hornblocks and seeing what works for you. If you're not happy with the results view it as some productive research as appose to a step backwards and a waste of effort. Hope this helps Best Wishes Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 David, ... the cast London Road hornguides and blocks... This then lead me to the milled BM hornblocks after seeing the results of John Brighton and Morgan's work and upon advice from Tim V. The avantage of these hornblocks was the slimline nature, thus aiding the inclusion of the valve gear. I didn't do much to the frames apart from cleaning up the edge once i'd cut out the fixed axle locations (as mentioned above), as a result it was probably more luck than anything else that I achieved a good sliding fit. One word of warning I would give is that because the hornblocks stradle the frames, it reduces the side play on the wheels ... Other methods i've seen and would quite like to experiment with are the Gordon Ashton sprung hornblocks and the High Level versions. I haven't had experience of either to date so can't comment at the momment Hope this helps Best Wishes Paul Paul Thanks for the reply. I've only tried the Alan Gibson and HighLevel Hornblock systems. AG I can't recommend, a very old design in need of revision (I say this with apologies to the new owners of the brand). But HighLevel I can recommend. I like the no soldering, fold up character of the design. It is a bit of a fiddle getting the hornblock to move freely, but the only issue I can see with HighLevel isn't so much the hornguide system itself, but that the designer of the chassis kits absolutely refuses to make compromises to prototypical fidelity, even if it means his own hornguides won't fit! I cannot see how the Gordon Ashton design will fit into a HighLevel chassis, because of the springing arrangement they seem to be too wide. I'm not sure how the Brassmaster would do either, the frames on the 14XX are set further apart than I think is usual, but I'm open to correction on that. I haven't tried the LRM system, the only LRM kit I've ever bought was their Midland 3F. This kit came without any form of hornblock system and it seems to be going to be superceded by the Bachmann RTR in the near future. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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