RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 5, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2011 Morning folks. Curved ball question but in our 1919 period was there a standard painting scheme for ATSF buildings? Very hard to tell from B&W photos. I'm thinking of wooden doors and window frames specifically. Were the wooden buildings themselves just untreated lumber, treated in some way (creosote?) or painted? I can find loads of references to loco and car liveries but nothing much on buildings. Very easy to get distracted by the myriad of loco painting schemes! regards Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 5, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2011 Forgot to mention.... 5 boards of the layout are now up at the annual Stafford exhibition. Managed to get some plastering down last night and we'll be working on the layout all weekend. Will take progress photos as we go for posting next week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Forgot to mention.... 5 boards of the layout are now up at the annual Stafford exhibition. Managed to get some plastering down last night and we'll be working on the layout all weekend. Will take progress photos as we go for posting next week. Could be interesting. Plastering and track laying at the same time. I'll bring wellies and an umbrella as well as the large hammer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2011 Morning folks. Curved ball question but in our 1919 period was there a standard painting scheme for ATSF buildings? Very hard to tell from B&W photos. I'm thinking of wooden doors and window frames specifically. Were the wooden buildings themselves just untreated lumber, treated in some way (creosote?) or painted? I can find loads of references to loco and car liveries but nothing much on buildings. Very easy to get distracted by the myriad of loco painting schemes! A little late for your era, maybe - but would things have changed so much? Scroll down for structures. http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/KJordan/SFRHMS%20Painting%20Guide.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 John/ Chris - Is this any help? http://atsf.railfan....ts/depoted.html and http://atsf.railfan.net/home.html if you see the link, Evan Werkma maintains the page and an email might get you more info - he is a nice guy. http://www.rgspemkt....ecar-Paint.html If it is available - this book may be of research use http://muse.jhu.edu/....1bronstein.pdf and it is http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Train+Stops+Here%3A+New+Mexico%27s+Railway+Legacy&x=17&y=18 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Olddudders gave you a great link, that would be the standard colors for frame buildings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 5, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2011 A little late for your era, maybe - but would things have changed so much? Scroll down for structures. http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/KJordan/SFRHMS%20Painting%20Guide.pdf Thanks chaps. i'd seen references the the yellow and green livery in the 30s but wasn't sure if there was an earlier livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gringo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Just returned from the Stafford Exhibition and stacked most of the boards of the layout back in the shed! It was really good to support the show and the club by helping to demonstrate, with the aid of my skilled "amigos", how we build (and ever so occasionally bodge) our way to a portable model railway layout. I hope that Chris had a lot of fun with his expanded polystyrene and Damian enjoyed his first taste of HO scale and Peco code 83 track. I think it's super stuff, although I know it's slightly over size for all but the main line track. I figured that as it has accurate U.S. tie size and spacing, if carefully ballasted, painted and weathered it should look ok. If it performs like other types of Peco track that I've used previously, the layout will give us many years of excellent service. Damian is going to fit Tortoise motors beneath the boards to drive the turnouts and wire the track for DCC operation. At the show, I know I had a lot of fun explaining; "how we began the project, where it's located, what we intend to have completed by this time next year" (as we're booked for the SRC show in 2012) and "how much we've been helped and encouraged by the RMweb community". Even Mr. York turned up at the shambles which was our demonstration area, to watch me demonstrate my ballasting techniques (sadly without the aid of Bertie the budgie - see the Treneglos thread) and also how to wave the 16 foot long plan about ! There's a photo somewhere on the web of the demonstrators in action. Anyway, on behalf of Chris, Damian and myself, thanks to all those RMwebbers that said hello, far to many to mention but all very much appreciated. And thanks also to our "information gurus", Dave1905, Shortliner and Oldddudders for the recent crop of really great stuff. We'll do our best to make the layout match the detail we're getting. All the best, John (now off to the pub to celebrate another great modelling weekend!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 6, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2011 As well as adding loads of polystyrene and plaster to the boards I also had my first taste of laser cut wooden building kits. I finished a 'ATSF Standard Section Tool House' ready for John to paint and got a good way with a 'General Service Building'. John also has a 'Santa Fe No3 Std One Story Depot' to build. The accuracy of the cutting impressed me, as did the thought that went into the kit design. Trickiest bit was straightening out the main sides - all of which were warped in varying degrees. Some of the bits were also made out of what looked like a thin MDF. It will be interesting to see how the materials last with time. The other downside with wooden kits is the wait while the glue grabs and sets. I much preferbuilding in plastic where the solvents grab and set within seconds. To be honest if the wood is going to be painted yellow and green, hence hiding the 'real wood' effect, I'm not sure what the advantages are of using the wood. My experience so far is that the wood doesn't seem to have the stability or strength (small sections easily part along the grain) of the plastic I'm used to. Am I missing something? I'm now toying with building a second lineside hut but in plastic. Would be interesting to see if folk can tell the difference. This new experience aside, had a really good weekend doing some full on layout building whilst talking to loads of folk. Got more done than I expected and sorted out some of the scenes with John and Damian. We also seem to be heading towards some extra boards for a Wye..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 6, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2011 PS John..... Are you going to announce your show invite? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gringo Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 PS John..... Are you going to announce your show invite? Back from pub quiz - unfortunately didn't win, but beer was good! Sorry "Few-less-Spams-buddy" had forgotten about invite. Amazingly, our wobbly polystyrene, wonky wooden buildings and "dirty Peco code 83 track through a desert landscape" has had a formal invite from Mr. Jones (Governor of the Warley Show at the NEC) for the year 2013. Looks like we had better get our electrically-powered, plaster and ballast skates on! The shed photos are great. I'm looking forward to (some of) the photographs you're no doubt going to post during the next week. All the best, John. Edit: Since taking on the Black Country Blues project, the invite for Warley NEC show has been postponed and 'Once upon a time' is more likely to appear at Warley in 2014, or maybe even 2015, depending on the group's commitments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 7, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2011 John/ Chris - Is this any help? http://atsf.railfan....ts/depoted.html and http://atsf.railfan.net/home.html if you see the link, Evan Werkma maintains the page and an email might get you more info - he is a nice guy. http://www.rgspemkt....ecar-Paint.html If it is available - this book may be of research use http://muse.jhu.edu/....1bronstein.pdf and it is http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+Train+Stops+Here%3A+New+Mexico%27s+Railway+Legacy&x=17&y=18 Thanks again Jack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 No problem - there is nothing worse that going ahead with a project after research, only to find that you are crrticised after the fact by someone else who had been sitting on a critical piece of info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dana Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 your rail group need a mines bureau car by the us mines bureau which started in 1910 to cut down the amount of deadly acidents in the united states after public preasure demanded that the feds do some thing after some deadly explosions across the states. Here's a link to an article about thease care in jan 1911 pop mechanics http://books.google....20mines&f=false an old round house or athern oldtime parlour car could be used to model one of these making inspection of the mines or educating the miners the importance of safety first Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2011 your rail group need a mines bureau car by the us mines bureau which started in 1910 to cut down the amount of deadly acidents in the united states after public preasure demanded that the feds do some thing after some deadly explosions across the states. Here's a link to an article about thease care in jan 1911 pop mechanics http://books.google....20mines&f=false an old round house or athern oldtime parlour car could be used to model one of these making inspection of the mines or educating the miners the importance of safety first Thanks for this. Scanning down the doc you linked....there's some very 'interesting' ideas! Love the hoop skirt parachute and the cable reel for 'mobile' telephones Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2011 So back to Johns story. About 4 years ago the three of us agreed to meet up at a pub for a chat about John's American layout idea. I do remember that the pub was called the 'Hedgehog' and it was on the A51 near Lichfield. I don't remember what we ate but I do recall much banter as John rolled out his first ideas to us. The following four images are sections of the plan he brought out, the second fits to the right of the first, and so on.... He also brought with him some trestles that he'd built and gave the surrounding diners a demonstration of how it fitted together. They must have thought we were mad! After all his hard work on the trestle, John later found out that the pattern he'd used didn't follow American practice. We had a big discussion about the plan, much banter and John went away to draw up the alterations.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 8, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2011 The second plan came out as a reverse of the first and also showed the layout in roundy-roundy format. The date at the top reads May 2006. The title on the plan read "From Sweetwater to Bitter Canyon via Cactus Creek'... sounds like John had been on the Cactus juice again I'll let John fill in the 'what happened next' bit..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gringo Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Mmmm, I wonder where I put my notebook ?O.k. Chris, here's some more what, why, and how this rambling project developed.From my battered notebook, I see that, five years ago (!!), by the time I had sketched the plans (that Chris has displayed in posts 166 and 167), I had rapidly acquired a couple of locomotives and a pile of information on U.S. railroads.However, lots of information piled on top of zero knowledge can often produce imperfect results! For instance, Sweetwater (a station name straight out of the film "Once upon a time in the west") is in Texas; an important junction between the ATSF and the Texas & Pacific, around 200 miles west of Fort Worth. When I sketched the plans (2006), I didn't know this and I also didn't know that one of the engines that I had bought was way out of the period (1900) that we were originally aiming for.I was also trying to balance the crazy idea of "what if?" against what was available in the U.K. and discovering which locomotives, rolling stock and track were on sale to suit the project. Peco Code 83 flex-track had not long been introduced and I had bought a couple of yards and a No. 6 turnout. Although it represented a heavier-weight rail than our period, the quality of the product, the correct U. S. specifications and the overall look, with accurate tie spacing was very good. Plus, it was easy to source as it's made in the U.K., is quick and easy to lay and if it performs as well as the previous Peco varieties of track will give years of good service.So, when it came to deciding which track to use for our American layout, in this case we've taken the easier option to use the new Peco Code 83 for the mainline tracks and all the turnouts, so that we'll see something running sooner rather than in several years time! Our reasoning is - because the output from the mines at Fierro and Santa Rita was increasing due to wartime requirements - the track has been relayed and upgraded to allow the latest locomotives to work the traffic. The latest USRA locomotives (the big dogs mentioned in post 4 by Dave-1905) have heavier axle loadings than the 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, normally in charge. This is perhaps not something I'd have said or done 20 years ago, when I first started hand-building 'chaired' British track with C & L products!Back in 2006, I was still undecided upon which U.S. railroad to hang my hat on - vacillating between two great rivals, the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe (ATSF). Both systems ran through the deserts of the south west and both had interesting histories, top-drawer pedigree and superb portfolios of steam locomotives!As my knowledge increased, I began to realize one of the big differences between railways in the U.K. and railroads in the States, which affected their construction and operation. Over here, most railways provided links between established towns and industrial communities, whereas in the U.S.A. the (majority of) western railroads were built to open up large areas of the country. The railroads were a direct factor in establishing new communities, towns and industries and hence, the incredible speed of development of the network, spreading over hundreds of miles of a vast and largely empty landscape. This was a far cry from practice in most of Britain, where few towns are more than forty miles from their most distant neighbor.However, the acquisition of more knowledge produced dissatisfaction with the sketched plans and the realization that my trestles had been built incorrectly was another blow. Both of the layout plans would require a lot of track, a forest of wood and many months of the scarcest commodity - time, plus a pile of extra resources. By the end of the year, there was a lack of enthusiasm for our 'crazy idea', stagnation with the excess of new information, and this eventually brought the project to a standstill."Once upon a time" was no longer a fairytale project but had become a horrid nightmare! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Oih, Owd Gringo. How about posting a plan of what we are actually building? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 This morning I had a promotion email from Amazon.com which included this http://www.amazon.co...640_pd_re_dt_t6#_ - Chapter 7 is about painting desert backdrops - may be of use or interest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted February 13, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2011 Picking up from John's post.... So basically it all went quiet on his American project for a while. We exhibited Treneglos and did some work on it from time to time. Oh yes, John and I did a little bit now and then to help Damian build his Diesels in the Duchy layout during 2009 for it's first show in 2010. (Photos below by James Hilton at the 2010 DEMU show) But then during 2010 the evil spectre that was John's American layout idea raised its head again. But this time instead of being ignored it was grappled with 3 pairs of hands and given a really good shake! And here's a preview of what we came up with. This is how (after some considerable discussion!) it got translated into a mock up: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gringo Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Somewhere, I've a proper drawing that Damian built the boards from, but can I find it ? Can I heckaslike ! However, the mock-up is pretty much spot on for what we're intending to build and exhibit at the Stafford Show, in February 2012. First time out, it will operate as an end-to-end layout, with the mineral branch (hopefully) also ready for traffic. Trains will work up from Deming (staging yard) entering the layout from the right. After arrival at Whitewater some will travel on to Silver City (staging yard) passing over the trestle bridge on the left. Ore trains (and returning empties) will use the branch to the mines at Fierro and Santa Rita - the track now upgraded to allow bigger locomotives. Switching will take place in the small yard and local traffic will be despatched up the branch, or occasionally towards Silver City, but bound for the (S.P. controlled) branch to the new town of Tyrone. The train movements outlined by Dave1905 in an earlier post will also operate, but will involve reversal (and maybe a possible engine change) at Whitewater. Well, that's the plan and how we intend to operate. A lot busier than the real thing I'm sure. Comments welcome. All the best, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2011 I can't have been listening, but really don't recall what you guys envisage running on your railway. Loadsa brass? Maybe a bit heavy and new in 1919, but these models just about creep into your timeframe. I can tell you they are nice! http://www.atsfrr.com/Reviews/HO/Steam/BLI%202-10-2/Index.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gringo Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I can't have been listening, but really don't recall what you guys envisage running on your railway. Loadsa brass? Maybe a bit heavy and new in 1919, but these models just about creep into your timeframe. I can tell you they are nice! http://www.atsfrr.co...-10-2/Index.htm Although the first 3800s just squeeze into our period, I think the locomotives shown in the link are what is known as "heavy" 2-10-2s, with an axle loading greater than 55,000lbs, so just a bit too heavy even for our "up-graded" line. These are the real "big dogs" and superb models too. However I was thinking that our largest engines to be seen operating in our area would be like the USRA "light" 2-10-2 design. At the moment the biggest locomotives we have are a 2-8-2 and a 1917 built 2-10-0. Thanks for the link though, it had me drooling over the keyboard ! And you hadn't missed anything, as yet I hadn't posted any of the research that I did into U.S. locomotives and which were available for our chosen period. All the best, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 would a MDC/Roundhouse 2-6-2, altered to look a little bit more like the Santa Fe locos it supposedly represents, count? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.