Too much stock, not enough railway

[Ian J.]

Interesting thread.

 

For my tuppence worth, I think there will come a time in the not so distant future when some of the preserved lines amalgamate in some fashion. I think the ones most likely to have this happen are those that aren't particularly well developed for whatever reason - e.g. the Lavender Line, as it's very close to the Bluebell, could possibly end up taken over by the Bluebell (note this is not based on any inside knowledge or rumour or anything! It's just a thought!)

 

As for shipping locos overseas to places like Canada, if they were to get a chance to do some longer distance running at least the larger examples like the various pacifics would get used for what they were designed for, rather than just doing 25mph for single digit mileage journeys (which I'm sure can't be doing them any good).

[PhilH]

This argument, and others in a similar vein, rears its head from time to time.One factor armchair observers forget is that for most of us working volunteers (I've done 22 years in the Mid Hants loco dept) it's more an affair of the heart than of the head. To take a wreck, work longer and harder than we ever would at our day jobs in conditions that would make most peoples' eyes water,dig deep in our own pockets,sometimes even wreck relationships just to one day have the privilege of seeing or perhaps driving that transformed wreck at the head of a train, well for most of us it's all our dreams come true.

 

Most of the bigger railways have very professional management stuctures these days which work hard to keep heads above water, but it is without a doubt the spirit, work ethic and vision of the volunteer force which keeps, and hopefully will continue to keep, the majority of preserved railways going.

 

One last point - be careful what you wish for. Once the things are turned into razor blades it's too late.

[Blandford1969]

This argument, and others in a similar vein, rears its head from time to time.One factor armchair observers forget is that for most of us working volunteers (I've done 22 years in the Mid Hants loco dept) it's more an affair of the heart than of the head. To take a wreck, work longer and harder than we ever would at our day jobs in conditions that would make most peoples' eyes water,dig deep in our own pockets,sometimes even wreck relationships just to one day have the privilege of seeing or perhaps driving that transformed wreck at the head of a train, well for most of us it's all our dreams come true.

 

Most of the bigger railways have very professional management stuctures these days which work hard to keep heads above water, but it is without a doubt the spirit, work ethic and vision of the volunteer force which keeps, and hopefully will continue to keep, the majority of preserved railways going.

 

One last point - be careful what you wish for. Once the things are turned into razor blades it's too late.

 

 

At the end of the day if costs become greater than turnover then sadly all the enthusiasm in the world will not save a railway no matter how big. I am as an example currently looking at how we can reduce our coal and water consumption and I am analysing costs per mile by month and correlating it to passenger numbers and coaching sets. We burn on average about 50kgs per mile in Jan which drops to about 23kgs in June as an example. Certainly today every pound, excessive playing to the gallery and minute blowing off counts.-

 

I may come accross as pessimistic however I really want to climb off the footplate in 30 years time when I am 70 having done over 50 years on the footplate. From where i sit seeing the real cost of infrastuture growing this is a real challenge for the whole movement in the years to come, unless there is ongoing renewal all the time and things are not put off.

[sir douglas]

my dad has told me many-a-time about this problem, and the last time we were at the elsecar heritage railway he was talking to a good friend there about their rollingstock and to be careful not to get themselves into that same problem

[45156]

A most interesting discussion and some very different opinions here.

 

I personally hate to see some of the hulks sitting on the back roads of certain preserved lines, and regrettably, some appear to be beyond economic restoration - and that is in no way to denigrate the efforts of those who have managed to restore (very ably in some cases) locos which at one time were deemed to be unrestorable. I for one, never thought I would see 71000 running on the main line, and working in the way that the designer originally intended. However there are many, many more projects on the go now, and less and less money to go round, and as a result, there are some locos where the restoration costs may well never be achieved - and that relates to all types of traction, steam, diesel, and electric.

 

However, when one looks at the preserved lines, many locos are getting to the end of their current certification, and will need major overhaul just to keep them running - again, this will mean money to be spent to get them there.

 

My main fear is that with so many projects on the go, and also the need to repair the runners, there will just not be the money to go round, and as a result of that, we may see some lines with the hulks on the back lines, and also non working locos awaiting retubing or whatever, and nothing on the front roads able to work the service.

[PhilH]

and regrettably, some appear to be beyond economic restoration

 

Thankfully, usually only to the 'untrained' eye.

[newbryford]

A most interesting discussion and some very different opinions here.

 

A healthy discussion! As the OP, I thought it might have generated a bit more "preserve everything", but I think most, if not all, posters are being realistic.

 

there are some locos where the restoration costs may well never be achieved - and that relates to all types of traction, steam, diesel, and electric.

 

 

I think the problem will eventually lay more with diesel and electric as they require more specialist parts that aren't readily replicated, if not available as spares. I am over-simplifying, but steam locos are pretty much lumps of metal that can be hammered into shape. To a degree, they can also probably tolerate outdoor storage more than D&E traction. How many preserved lines have enough suitable buildings?

 

A recent thread elsewhere, highlighted by Freightliner 86's that are still going, when more modern 90's are falling by the wayside. 86's are relatively simple electrical machines, whereas 90's have complex electronics with (for example) circuit boards that cannot easily be re-manufactured.

 

Slighly going OT.

Going back to the lumps of metal analogy. Build a loco from scratch - Tornado could be built, because it is exactly that - shaped metal. It not be feasible to do the same with a "lost" D&E type, let's pick a Class 22 for example. Who would build a diesel engine and hydraulic transmission from scratch, as a one-off? Admittedly it's not impossible - but very improbable IMO.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Baby Deltic]

The notion that steam traction is the sole reason for a preserved railway to survive and that only a few enthusiasts want to go and see diesels is always bandied about. Sorry, but I don't agree.

[Baby Deltic]

A healthy discussion! As the OP, I thought it might have generated a bit more "preserve everything", but I think most, if not all, posters are being realistic.

 

 

 

I think the problem will eventually lay more with diesel and electric as they require more specialist parts that aren't readily replicated, if not available as spares. I am over-simplifying, but steam locos are pretty much lumps of metal that can be hammered into shape. To a degree, they can also probably tolerate outdoor storage more than D&E traction. How many preserved lines have enough suitable buildings?

 

A recent thread elsewhere, highlighted by Freightliner 86's that are still going, when more modern 90's are falling by the wayside. 86's are relatively simple electrical machines, whereas 90's have complex electronics with (for example) circuit boards that cannot easily be re-manufactured.

 

Slighly going OT.

Going back to the lumps of metal analogy. Build a loco from scratch - Tornado could be built, because it is exactly that - shaped metal. It not be feasible to do the same with a "lost" D&E type, let's pick a Class 22 for example. Who would build a diesel engine and hydraulic transmission from scratch, as a one-off? Admittedly it's not impossible - but very improbable IMO.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Who would build a Baby Deltic from scratch?

[Blandford1969]

Thankfully, usually only to the 'untrained' eye.

 

Very true, they just take more time and money - 20 years ago you would have never expected Gallatea or the Blue king to ever run again, yet they are nearly ready. The level of expertise that has grown up over the last 40 years has taken the movement from people knowing nothing really to workshops with the skill if not the money of the main works of the past in many cases.

 

We are getting exciting new builds with the G5 and 82045 - who knows maybe one day someone will do a V3?

[The Stationmaster]

New steam locos are one thing as potential mainline locos - diesel are a very different proposition with a real mountain to climb in terms of safety etc assessment, far more than almost any steam loco is likely to be faced with (except perhaps a P2?). And I think the best way to commercial success with 'new' locos is to get out on the mainline with decent size trains. 'Tornado' has a remarkable following among people with minimal interest in, or knowledge of, railways and enough of them seem to be more than happy to keep paying out to travel behind it - and an income is a great asset however much support you have from willing slaves as unpaid helpers in their many different ways.

 

The whole debate about the financial future of tourist/heritage railways was opened wide by Michael Draper when he was GM of the Severn Valley back in the 1980s and he got few thanks from many 'enthusiasts' for acting as some sort of Cassandra. Just about everything he said made sense and a lot of it has come to pass already with some railways having to pay out large sums simply to k return their infrastructure to usable condition after incidence of bad weather or having to meet the costs of old age in that infrastructure. Remarkably no schemes that have really got going have ever folded - yet, but some of the financial pressures will get much harder in the coming year. Fingers crossed that all who deserve to come through it all.

[newbryford]

Who would build a Baby Deltic from scratch?

 

From scratch like Tornado - probably not - and that's my point.

 

But by using bits of other locos (20 and 37) and a spare engine from elsewhere - that's another matter.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[PhilH]

Fingers crossed that all who deserve to come through it all.

 

Amen to that.

[10000]

BTW, I said this kind of tongue-in-cheek! Although it does get you thinking!

We have lots of Canadian preserved locos, including the Dominion of Canada (which came over here in 1967 -- there just doesn't seem to be the money to get them steaming again.

 

Rob,

how about swapping a spam can for the Royal Hudson from Sqaumish BC. I would love to see that on my local heritage railway. But I suspect there would be loading gauge and weight problems.

 

Any way getting serious I suspect one of the reasons for lack of money out in Canada is that a lot of your tourist attractions have a short season and shut up shop after Labour Day, with the result that the ones that do stay open get few visitors.

 

I visited Squamish on a Saturday after Labour Day, it was a glorious sunny and warm day but the only visitors in the place were myself, son and daughter-in-law.

[phil-b259]

From scratch like Tornado - probably not - and that's my point.

 

But by using bits of other locos (20 and 37) and a spare engine from elsewhere - that's another matter.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Exactly. To be honest I would put the baby deltic project in the same braket as the Bluebell's Atlantic project. In both cases they have taken the most essential bit (or most expensive bit if you want) of any loco (the diesel engine / loco boiler) and are simply adding the rest. Very different from Tornado which was starting from scratch

[The Stationmaster]

From scratch like Tornado - probably not - and that's my point.

 

But by using bits of other locos (20 and 37) and a spare engine from elsewhere - that's another matter.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

But what would they do with it? Virtually impossible to ever get it onto the NR railway and I would think that even a tourist/heritage/preserved line would have to be very careful in considering whether they could let it run (and their insurers might be even more careful) - not just because of the issue of the standard of workmanship (which could be qualified and certificated etc) but because of the basically unknown consequence of the interaction of the component parts and their age and provenance; a major minefield I think. One railway has already found itself in trouble over the simple matter of the quality of material in a leafspring - now apply that to 'bits' put together to build a 'new' loco (and yes, it was done for 'Tornado' but it's steam - and therefore much simpler.

[Blandford1969]

Amen to that.

 

seconded

[Baby Deltic]

From scratch like Tornado - probably not - and that's my point.

 

But by using bits of other locos (20 and 37) and a spare engine from elsewhere - that's another matter.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I agree that the Baby Deltic project would have been a non-starter had the T9-29 power unit from D5905 not survived, plus, of course the scrap class 37 and 20 bits. I think its only a matter of time before a set of laser cut frames are set down for a replica dinosaur diesel. Eventually spare engine parts are going to run out for the diesel loco's in preservation, and replacements will need to be manufactured from scratch.

[Baby Deltic]

But what would they do with it? Virtually impossible to ever get it onto the NR railway and I would think that even a tourist/heritage/preserved line would have to be very careful in considering whether they could let it run (and their insurers might be even more careful) - not just because of the issue of the standard of workmanship (which could be qualified and certificated etc) but because of the basically unknown consequence of the interaction of the component parts and their age and provenance; a major minefield I think. One railway has already found itself in trouble over the simple matter of the quality of material in a leafspring - now apply that to 'bits' put together to build a 'new' loco (and yes, it was done for 'Tornado' but it's steam - and therefore much simpler.

 

 

It is my understanding that the 'new' build Baby Deltic D5910 will be just as safe as anything else on the tracks. Detailed structural drawings have been produced using CAD and FEA, and coded welders will be used to join the structural components on the frames and reinforcing members. On the subject of steam loco's, its easy to forget the 200 or so PSI in the boiler, and all the safeguards and certification that requires.

[industrial]

What is too much stock? is this when have the railway got more engines than they need to run the trains with some spars for breakdowns etc and the engines in the workshop for overhaul etc. Same with the coaches. In the case of the wagons unless they are for work trains etc they don't earn any real money for the railway.

 

In the case of the WSR they charge rent for peoples stock if they can't use for a purpose. Also the stock must be kept in good condition as Jo Public don't lick seeing wrecks about. (They are also reducing the amount of trains the DMU is used on as Jo Public don't like them).

[The Stationmaster]

It is my understanding that the 'new' build Baby Deltic D5910 will be just as safe as anything else on the tracks. Detailed structural drawings have been produced using CAD and FEA, and coded welders will be used to join the structural components on the frames and reinforcing members. On the subject of steam loco's, its easy to forget the 200 or so PSI in the boiler, and all the safeguards and certification that requires.

 

As I said (possibly indirectly) it's not so much the welders as all sorts of other things - right down to the specification for bolts, wiring, connectors and so on and, as importantly, having the procedures and records in place to make sure that everything complies with those specifications and is shown to comply. It won't stand a chance of getting on the mainline (which of curse probably isn't their intention anyway) without all that and a whole lot more including performance and braking specification and expectation and the calculations to prove such stuff; it really is a huge task and it gets far more complicated, and expensive, with diesels. A few years ago I disputed the theoretical braking calculations for something which was basically a conversion of a train which had been in everyday mainline service for years and had covered millions of miles - but I was not prepared to accept certain calculations because experience told me they were wrong and not what a very well know company in the railway industry said they were. Apart from the extra expense they went to in order to try to support their figures they finished up having to do two additional days of road testing because I continued to doubt what they said and would not support their safety documentation submission as a result. Possibly an inconvenience as much as anything for them but also a pretty large unbudgetted expense and a delay in delivering the train - that is what happens if you are looking to get onto NR with anything (BTW the road testing showed their figures were indeed incorrect, and my items on the brakes were only 2 out of a list of over 100 where they had to provide further information or support for their original data).

 

[simonhaynes72]

Agree, interesting thread.

I think the issue will be the cost of repair as the volunteer workforce thins. It will probably require greater covered storage areas, seemingly expensive from a short-term perspective but cheap in the long term. Bodmin's relatively recent 3 road shed is an example, yet still plenty of goods stock is open to the elements.

The issue of GWSR's embankment issues, Severn Valley's landslip etc. will see increasing costs, and I think we will see as an inevitable consequence a prioritisation of expenditure. Certain elements of stock might fall down the list of where to spend money.

Simon

[Rugd1022]

The notion that steam traction is the sole reason for a preserved railway to survive and that only a few enthusiasts want to go and see diesels is always bandied about. Sorry, but I don't agree.

 

Baby Deltic raises a very good point here.... let's not forget that a whole generation has grown up having never experienced mainline steam in it's heyday, it's now nearly 43 years since the 'Ten Guinea' special ran, during which a wide variety of diesel and electric traction has come and gone. Many of us grew up on a diet of WCML AC electrics, WR Diesel-Hydraulics, plodding Sulzers and noisy English Electric 'boxes on wheels' which despite often being told by some folk that they have no character, are nevertheless much cherished and ingrained in our collective memories. Just as much time, care, sheer hard work and passion goes into D&E preservation as it does with steam, the rewards for which are often only a handful of running days per year.

 

I certainly don't want to start a pointless 'steam v diesel debate' but it's a corner which has to be defended. Take the Diesel Traction Group as an example - despite having very few running days on the SVR last year, their pride and joy D821 brought the crowds out after many hours hard work behind the scenes, by people with full time jobs and other commitments, and was very much appreciated by all who rode behind her. I've noticed at many diesel galas in recent years that a lot of younger enthusiasts are paying to see these first generation 'modernisation plan' machines, which to them are probably as old as steam locos are to my generation.

 

I should add that I'm as much 'a steam man' as anyone else on here.... back in December I was on the Castle tour from Birmingham Moor St to Paddington, at one point the elderly gent sat opposite my pal and I, was almost in tears as 'Earl Of Mount Edgecumb' was opened up for the assault on Hatton Bank on the return leg..... I fully understood what he must have felt, it certainly made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, but then so did Western Champion tackling the gradients on the Cornish Mainline a couple of years back. Magic comes in many forms.

 

As for the OP.... I guess the crux of the matter is that when it comes to push or shove, who gets to decide what is saved and what is 'let go'? The enthusiast who has spent half a lifetime keeping a Bullied Pacific in working order, doesn't have the right to tell anyone else that their beloved but incomplete and forlorn Class 50 should get the chop, or vice virsa of course. As someone else hinted at a few posts back, once they're gone, they're gone for good.

 

Nidge

[GreenDiesel]

Rob,

how about swapping a spam can for the Royal Hudson from Sqaumish BC. I would love to see that on my local heritage railway. But I suspect there would be loading gauge and weight problems.

 

Any way getting serious I suspect one of the reasons for lack of money out in Canada is that a lot of your tourist attractions have a short season and shut up shop after Labour Day, with the result that the ones that do stay open get few visitors.

 

I visited Squamish on a Saturday after Labour Day, it was a glorious sunny and warm day but the only visitors in the place were myself, son and daughter-in-law.

 

 

I'd be really sad to see the Royal Hudson leave. I've watched videos of the Royal Hudson and other CPR Hudsons (such as the Empress), and they're awesome! I haven't seen one operating yet but hope one of them will visit Ontario in the near future.

 

I also think that part of our problem (of having few steam heritage railways) is that our population is very small (less than 1/2 of the UK's) and spread over a vast area. Ontario alone is some 3x the size of the British Isles. Also, steam ended much earlier here than in Britain, by close to 10 years. And yes, our short tourist season is another factor. Most tourist sites only open from late-May to September/October. Outside of that time period, it's simply too cold & dreary!

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[bingley hall]

So who will be the final 'armchair' arbiter to determine which railways are told their services are no longer wanted and which locomotives are scrapped as surplus to requirements?