LBSC Lewes,based project locos and stock.

[Kenton]

The loco turntables on the LBSCR shown in the reference books are fully boarded type, very easy to model.

Lewes shed was closed in 1870 though continued to be used as a goods shed until the upheaval of 1889.

The turntable was 35ft.

[bertiedog]

Lewes shed was closed in 1870 though continued to be used as a goods shed until the upheaval of 1889.

The turntable was 35ft.

 

That appears to match the map published in the books, a small turntable, which by 1879 was serving the sidings, perhaps out of use. As it's not precise Lewes due to shrinking the design, it may as well take locos, otherwise the space is wasted in the middle of the vee yard.

Stephen.

[Brake Compo]

Does any body know of 4mm plans, (or scalable) , for the small LBSCR Horseboxes?

 

Stephen.

 

Diag 53/271 horsebox? If so see page 20 of Carriage Stock of the LB&SCR by Newbury, Oakwood Press 1976 (long out of print and rather inpenetrably written).

[bertiedog]

I now have details of one of the LBSCR horseboxes, new drawing being prepared, and wood parts for three being cut out, as the springs are fairly simple , with plain axle box supports. The horse boxes seem to have been a feature of a lot of main line trains, and with the Market and a nearby Racecourse, Lewes seems to have had lots of use for them

 

I may do some masters for whitemetal castings to ease making six or more wagon underframes, or cast in resin.

 

Photos do not seem to show whether spoked or disc wheels were used, anybody know what was usually fitted?

 

Stephen.

[Buckjumper]

The D.53/271 boxes had 3' 7" Mansell wheels.

[bertiedog]

Thanks, some that are modeled have wooden core wheels, but the one in the view of the roofs of Craven coaches, in the background, has spokes, so I expect they varied a bit. The drawing to hand is a Craven horsebox, and seems to imply solid wheels, as no spokes are shown.as drawn. It measures from the plan at 3' 7", which seems to be the common size. 14mm Coach wheels will do for 00 with fine flanges.

Stephen.

[Penlan]

Slightly OT but I have an early GWR Siphon that looks a lot nicer on an embankment with it's 3' 7" split spoked wheels going round

rather than the correct Mansell's or solids.

[Sir Balin]

Stephen,

 

I'm intrigued by you use of a band saw to cut brass. Could you give us any more details? I have two bandsaws; a hulking brute for resawing 14" planks, and a smaller Delta bench-top model, but it had never occurred to me to use the the smaller bandsaw rather than a piercing saw to cut brass. Is your machine specifically for metal cutting? Do you have to fix the brass to a backing piece, such as plywood, to provide support through the saw? What sort of blade do you use?

 

I really enjoy your contributions, especially the more 'workshop' oriented ones, so please keep up the good work!

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

[Kenton]

Slightly OT but I have an early GWR Siphon that looks a lot nicer on an embankment with it's 3' 7" split spoked wheels going round

rather than the correct Mansell's or solids.

While we are slightly OT ...

I would be first to agree that split spoke wheels look better ...

but, can anyone enlighten me if there would have been reasons why plain wheels were selected? Is it a case that the ride would have been better and less traumatic, or just a case of "as is used on 'brown' stock'", or was it just a fad/preference of the CE.

[Gareth Collier]

Lewes shed was closed in 1870 though continued to be used as a goods shed until the upheaval of 1889.

The turntable was 35ft.

 

Greetings,

This posting could be a shambles as I've not posted on RMWeb before but here goes!

On page 93 of 'Stroudley Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape there is a photo of a 'Richmond' class 0-4-2 standing on the said turntable. No exact date but it's the right turntable as you can see the platforms surrounding it.

Gareth

[bertiedog]

Stephen,

 

I'm intrigued by you use of a band saw to cut brass. Could you give us any more details? I have two bandsaws; a hulking brute for resawing 14" planks, and a smaller Delta bench-top model, but it had never occurred to me to use the the smaller bandsaw rather than a piercing saw to cut brass. Is your machine specifically for metal cutting? Do you have to fix the brass to a backing piece, such as plywood, to provide support through the saw? What sort of blade do you use?

 

I really enjoy your contributions, especially the more 'workshop' oriented ones, so please keep up the good work!

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

 

The bench top bandsaw I use is the Perform by Axminster, but this is not made now under that name. It is made by Sieg in China and comes from several suppliers under various different brand names.

 

. It takes 59 ¹/_2th inch blades , 3/8th and 1/4 inch depth or less, and 24 TPI and 32PI blades available from Starrett or Axminster. Very quiet and well made unit with cast metal body. Proxxon and Burgess make similar bench top machines. Do not confuse with the less expensive types like B&Q do, they work with home carpentry, but not precision metal work.

 

 

The cast aluminum top is covered with sacrificial MDF sheet to make sure all gaps are minimal. It cuts down to 30 thou without a top ply cover, but lower than this, say 10 thou is best cut with a scoring knife blade.

The fence needs a sacrificial cover as it has horizontal grooves that can catch thin metal sheet.

I have a Warco chop bandsaw to do heavy bar and rod cutting, these should not be used for precision work, but larger conventional band saws can be used, with the fine blades, given care that they are very powerful machines..

 

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

On wooden centered carriage wheels, they were used to keep noise down, they rode quieter than cast spoke wheels, but did require attention to check the condition, as obviously the wood could rot. Horseboxes seem a suitable vehicle to fit them on, for a quieter ride.

Stephen.

 

 

[bertiedog]

Looking up the Small Delta bandsaw models they are the same as the Perform types, but are FE production for the US market., so should be able to take the fine blades with ease. Delta list 1/8 blades as well.in 24 TPI, and 32 in 1/4 sizes. It is virtually the same machine, and may indeed be made by Sieg.

 

 

The Perform uses solid rod blade guides for the blades, but also take ball raced conversions for ALL guides, and this I have fitted all the time, but it worked well anyway will solid rod guides.

 

The Delta probably takes similar guides or has them as standard. Blades for brass and non ferrous metal work should be carefully set up with guides set very tight to the blades to prevent deflection.

 

Also a warning, clean the saw of all wood dust before using metal, even brass, as sparks can be given off the blade with steel sheet, and spark a fire. After use with metal, vacuum out completely as the metal dust abrades the drive wheels a bit if left.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Greetings,

This posting could be a shambles as I've not posted on RMWeb before but here goes!

On page 93 of 'Stroudley Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape there is a photo of a 'Richmond' class 0-4-2 standing on the said turntable. No exact date but it's the right turntable as you can see the platforms surrounding it.

Gareth

 

The old Lewes maps show no trace of any other turntable other than in the triangle goods yard in the Old Lewes Station, so it must have been used for locos under 35 foot regularly, turning tanks etc or smaller Craven Classes. The new layout has a full sized version nearer the goods yard in the later maps, but the period is to be earlier than the postcards generally.( with some exceptions, a Stroudley 042 tender loco woulds be nice)..

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Axminster set out to market less expensive machines in the Perform range, but seem to have given up on the branding, I expect it was due to identical machines being done by other suppliers. They do a slightly more expensive bandsaw called the JET, with lighting etc built in , it looks like Sieg make it as well, or it comes from the Taiwanese sub contractors to the mainland Chinese.

 

The mark of quality on the machines compared to very cheap ones, are the cast metal covers or pressed steel equivalents, cast aluminium, not sheet steel tables, and cast iron feet, and an induction motor of about 350 watt plus rating.

 

With the wood working blades or fine metal TPI, they handle most railway modellers can throw at them, sleepers, wood or PC, stock size scale wood strips, sheet ply cutting, mitre cutting and scale board cutting. It can handle light rod cutting in brass and aluminium.

It can also produce roof profiles in staged cuts using the tilt table,

 

I recently made duplicate replacements for Mills 1930's O gauge coaches using this method, with six cuts each side smoothed by sanding afterwards.

Stephen.

[burgundy]

Greetings,

On page 93 of 'Stroudley Locomotives' by Brian Haresnape there is a photo of a 'Richmond' class 0-4-2 standing on the said turntable. No exact date but it's the right turntable as you can see the platforms surrounding it.

Gareth

 

Gareth

Thanks for drawing attention to this photo - but it raises an interesting problem. The wheelbase of a Richmond is quoted as 15' 7", the wheelbase of a Stroudley outside framed tender is shown as 12' and the gap between engine and tender wheelbase on a G class (where the cab arrangement is very similar to a Richmond) is about 8', making a total of slightly more than 35'. Possible explanations are that

- the caption is wrong ( I don't know the background well enough to judge)

- the turntable was a little more than 35'

- it had extension bars (which were used on the later 45' tables to allow them to turn a bogie engine)

Any thoughts would be welcome?

Eric

[Sir Balin]

Hi Stephen,

 

Thank you for such a comprehensive and helpful reply. Re-reading my previous post, my enthusiasm for information made it read rather like a list of demands, rather than a request for information, so my apologies for that. I have been known to get carried away with my enthusiasm, though I suspect that my wife simply thinks that I should simply be carried away! Anyway, I'll definitely be trying the technique, once I have got suitable blades.

 

Many thanks,

 

Ian

[Gareth Collier]

Gareth

Thanks for drawing attention to this photo - but it raises an interesting problem. The wheelbase of a Richmond is quoted as 15' 7", the wheelbase of a Stroudley outside framed tender is shown as 12' and the gap between engine and tender wheelbase on a G class (where the cab arrangement is very similar to a Richmond) is about 8', making a total of slightly more than 35'. Possible explanations are that

- the caption is wrong ( I don't know the background well enough to judge)

- the turntable was a little more than 35'

- it had extension bars (which were used on the later 45' tables to allow them to turn a bogie engine)

Any thoughts would be welcome?

Eric

 

 

Hi Eric

The caption is spot on having had another look; the buildings in the background match other photos of Lewes including the advert on the tall house at the front. I can't see any extension bars in the photo so the table could have been bigger. However just because the loco is on the table doesn't mean it's being turned I suppose but then again a wagon turntable wouldn't support the weight.

I just need to borrow the Tardis.

Gareth

[bertiedog]

Pending getting a look at the photograph of Richmond, I think it is just that the turntable was a couple of feet bigger. I thought turntable extensions were not in common use in the UK, and just how would one be rigged on a flush turntable with a solid top. If it was a plate added, what did it run on, or if clamped to the rail, was it self supporting as a half height rail head out over the ends?

 

Survey maps like those published for Lewes,are pretty nominal on some items like a round structure where the key location for accuracy was the centre, the rim did not matter that much.......and the lines must be about a couple of feet thick..

 

Was it gospel established LBSCR practice to have had particular turntable sizes as a company policy????

 

Stephen.

[Penlan]

I don't know where I've seen a photo of an engine uncoupled from it's tender and turned on a small turntable,

then of course the tender, I think the location may have been in France, or possibly early LNWR, but it did happen.

 

Trouble is I'm trying to recall a picture location (Book, Archive library, etc.,) I saw some 30+ years ago.

[Kenton]

The issue of turning large locos on small turntables was a common one.

Most companies originally had small turntables as their initial cost and design played a bearing on their intallation.

The problem continued well into BR with smaller turntables being enlarged or replaced as locos became larger.

 

It was fairly common for a loco to be separated from its tender (far from a simple task) and turned separately. This got around the problem for most locos.

 

Other mechanisms were available such as triangles of track (I believe much more common then than now) or simply sending the loco to a larger shed with a larger turntable.

 

If we look at nearby sheds available at the time most had no turntable. Eastbourne did not gain its turntable until the building of the new semi-roundhouse in 1876; Brighton already had a larger (40ft) turntable from 1861 but that did not get enlarged (60ft) until 1909; Newhaven Harbour also had a 35ft table but that was closed in 1887 when Newhaven Town was built (probably with the moved Harbour table) anyway that didn't get enlarged to 60ft until 1917; Haywards Heath yet another 35ft table was closed in 1880; Ucfield didn't even have one. Polegate didn't open until 1860 and was yet another 36ft table; ditto Horsham (the semi-roundhouse didn't get built until 1896); Littlehampton - 42ft table; East Grinstead - none; Even as far away as Three Bridges it was only a 45ft table.

 

The period in question was quite early, it would have been reasonably common to run tender first. (I guess loco crew were considered hardier then as well as the speeds being generally slower.)

 

The fact that Lewes shed closed relatively early and was in such a cramped location indicates how relatively unimportant the servicing and turning of locos there actually was.

[bertiedog]

I don't know where I've seen a photo of an engine uncoupled from it's tender and turned on a small turntable,

then of course the tender, I think the location may have been in France, or possibly early LNWR, but it did happen.

 

Trouble is I'm trying to recall a picture location (Book, Archive library, etc.,) I saw some 30+ years ago.

 

It may well have been early Crampton's that were disconnected to turn, it was petty vital for them to work loco first, a rarely mentioned point, which CME's quickly noted amongst the other things they did not like about the Loco's. Most Crampton's were longer than average. Crampton locomotives were much more common in France where the problems were over looked in favour of the speed they could run at.

 

In the US it was common to disconnect the tender to turn on shortlines etc, it also lowered the load on the turntables bearings.

 

On the wooden wheels on passenger stock, most lines were desperate to lower noise to bearable levels, none more so than the GWR where the Barlow rail running on stone sets led to rhythmic beats of loud noise, and shaking, which passengers bitterly complained about.

 

Mainly recorded complaints in diaries etc, and the general public liked the relief from the appalling racket when transfered to standard gauge lines.. Wooden sleepers were quieter, and wooden centered wheels added a bit more in the way of suppressing the noise. The GWR even tried Gutter Percha centres (vulcanised hard rubber) to help get rid of a serious problem.

[burgundy]

Was it gospel established LBSCR practice to have had particular turntable sizes as a company policy????

 

Stephen.

 

Stephen

I don't think it was a company policy as such - more a matter of balancing the need for larger locos vs investment in infrastructure. I have a copy of the "Turntables" page from the Appendix to the WTT for 1922 (a bit late for this particular thread - but it illustrates the point). At that date there were still

42' tables at Barnham, Battersea, Epsom Downs, Epsom Town, Haywards Heath, Littlehampton, Pulborough and Seaford.

45' at Lewes (in triangle between Hastings and T-W lines) and Singleton

45' with extension gear at Chichester, Eastbourne, Hastings, Horsham, London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells

50' Battersea, Fratton, New Cross, Porstmouth and St Leonards

52' West Worthing

55' Bognor, Coulsdon, Guildford (LSW) and Portsmouth

60' Brighton, Eastbourne, Newhaven, Three Bridges and Victoria

 

There is a note below that records that

the H class Atlantics needed a minimum 52' turntable

K class Moguls needed 50'

B2 and B4 class 4-4-0s needed 45' with extension gear

All other classes could turn on a 42' table

 

Not immediately helpful in identifying the turntable at Lewes in the 1870s/80s, but, I hope, of interest!

 

Eric

[Penlan]

It may well have been early Crampton's that were disconnected to turn, ....

That certainly rings a bell.

 

[bertiedog]

Hardly much visual difference with a flush turntable so about 7 inch will do (44 .4 foot) will do, there is plenty of space around it. (7.086inch for 45 foot, 180m) So 180mm against 140mm(5.5 inch) for strict 35 foot version., not much to worry about. with the other scaling and reduction involved, with reduced length platforms etc.

For the station canopies I am looking into the cost of laser cut edges in thin play, it works well, but not sure of the potential costs for a small order. Other than that a miniature router and a toothed guide form could be used to get the repeating pattern, done on the milling machine table.

Buildings limited to the Station Office and parcels, the main constructions are the over bridges surrounding everything. It will also need some buildings "backs" along the rear in half relief.

 

Stephen.