LBSC Lewes,based project locos and stock.

[bertiedog]

I am slowly assembling a plan, to incorporate the "best bits", but getting a view of the Craven period and early Stroudley is difficult from the net, ........are any of the books better?

Stephen.

[burgundy]

........are any of the books better?

Stephen.

 

Stephen

It would be worth getting your local library to get hold of

E J Bedford of Lewes by John Minnis, published by Wild Swan in 1989 ISBN 0 906867 75 4

The relevant Middleton Press volumes are also quite helpful.

Eric

[bertiedog]

I have just ordered via Amazon the E.J. Bedford of Lewes book, S/Hand,(cheap!), but the Middleton press Eastbourne to Brighton is full priced or more secondhand!!

Does the Bedford book have early period shots?

Stephen.

[burgundy]

I have just ordered via Amazon the E.J. Bedford of Lewes book, S/Hand,(cheap!), but the Middleton press Eastbourne to Brighton is full priced or more secondhand!!

Does the Bedford book have early period shots?

Stephen.

 

Stephen

There are about a dozen photos of Lewes in the 1800s, including a couple that look straight into the angle between the London and Brighton lines. There are also a couple of "modern image" views from Southern days.

Personally, I think it is a fascinating book, with some very attractive photos and a lot of views of Stroudley locos.

Having only known John Minnis for about 30 odd years, I am, of course, completely unbiased!

Eric

[bertiedog]

In trawling through the net references to the area and it's railways I came across a reference or two to the rolling railway bridge on the River Arun, west of Brighton. This is a bit fascinating as i had heard of a bridge on the line that was drawn back to allow boats passage but assumed it rotated, as with Armstrong bridges, or lifted up like a bascule bridge, on counterweights.

 

 

It appears that there were two bridges, one replacing the other, one wood and one steel, that lifted one end slightly and then pulled the whole bridge back along the track, or in the first case they may have moved aside a section of track to allow the bridge to be retracted into the resulting gap.

 

The second type I have seen in other references for abroad in the past, but no reference for one that pulled the whole bridge on to the actual trackway. Either must have involved tremendous counterbalancing, as the weight is unsupported at the far end during retraction.

 

Has anybody seen any drawings of the bridge, I am aware of reprints of a Railway Magazine article with outline drawings, but little or no detail.

 

It appears the wooden one had towers with suspension cables to each end, the approach track was moved sideways, and then the while thing including the towers were pulled by winch on large wheels either side of the structure. They ran on track each side of the railway line. The steel version appears to have been a normal plate steel bridge, but raised the end and was pulled over the track to retract.

 

I will check with the NRM and the Science museum as the first type was said to be patented and may be traceable. ( The Science Museum was the Patent office repository in Victorian times).

 

Does any body else know of this very odd bridge or perhaps seen a model , maybe in local museums around the area in Sussex, perhaps in Brighton? Or are her any shots of it in the Middleton Press books of the area in the relevant volume?????

 

It would make a wonderful model to go with the diorama, if the operation can be sorted out. It would be the early one with the suspension towers and wooden construction.

 

Stephen.

 

 

[bertiedog]

http://www.semgonlin...ridgeAtFord.pdf

 

This link refers to the Arun Rolling bridge and has details of both versions, with details of the crew required to operate it etc, and simple line drawings, but really few details that a model would need.

 

Does anybody know of other references or photographs for the bridge? The person who mentioned the bridge to me was my great uncle who lived at Lewes and described the first bridge with the towers and suspension, but even though he was eighty in the early 1950's he cannot have personally seen the bridge in operation, at least not the first one.as it was replaced in 1863.. or else he was older than I thought! He was a mechanical engineer and was fascinated by the whole concept off moving the entire bridge.

 

It would make a nice addition on a single track line to Brighton, on the model,(I know it's dual in real life), with the excuse to hold locos in the Lewes Station whilst the bridge operates, with the single track leading to the fiddle yards.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Re-drawn from details and outline in the Railway Magazine..

I have drawn up a new computer drawing from the published unscaled outline and coloured it to make the details that are there clearer. The major missing factor are the wheels under the bridge, were they rollers or wheels acting like a wagon, attached to the bridge framework, which I suspect is the way it was done.

Quite an amazing design.

Stephen.

[Brake Compo]

Stephen

There are about a dozen photos of Lewes in the 1800s, including a couple that look straight into the angle between the London and Brighton lines. There are also a couple of "modern image" views from Southern days.

Personally, I think it is a fascinating book, with some very attractive photos and a lot of views of Stroudley locos.

Having only known John Minnis for about 30 odd years, I am, of course, completely unbiased!

Eric

 

Could not agree more, it is a brilliant book - superb quality professional photos, beautifully reproduced.

 

http://www.semgonlin...ridgeAtFord.pdf

 

This link refers to the Arun Rolling bridge and has details of both versions, with details of the crew required to operate it etc, and simple line drawings, but really few details that a model would need.

 

Does anybody know of other references or photographs for the bridge? The person who mentioned the bridge to me was my great uncle who lived at Lewes and described the first bridge with the towers and suspension, but even though he was eighty in the early 1950's he cannot have personally seen the bridge in operation, at least not the first one.as it was replaced in 1863.. or else he was older than I thought! He was a mechanical engineer and was fascinated by the whole concept off moving the entire bridge.

 

It would make a nice addition on a single track line to Brighton, on the model,(I know it's dual in real life), with the excuse to hold locos in the Lewes Station whilst the bridge operates, with the single track leading to the fiddle yards.

 

Stephen.

 

Try page 78 of Brighton Line Album by RC Riley 1967/1972, where part of mechanism can also be seen.

[bertiedog]

Could not agree more, it is a brillant book - superb quality professional photos, beautifully reproduced.

Try page 78 of Brighton Line Album by RC Riley 1967/1972, where part of mechanism can also be seen.

 

Thanks thats the first reference for a book mention I have found, I will try to trace it.

Stephen.

[Brake Compo]

The only thing that I would say - is the photo in Riley's book (taken in the mid '30s?) shows a totally different structure, with what appear to be cast iron under girders on the fixed spans and wrought iron(?) half through girders with a supplimental arch on the opening spans. So it looks like the timber spans were replaced in the late Victorian period (the use of CI girders of this form must predate the Tay Bridge collapse).

 

Update - I have now found a much better sequence in Plates 7-10 of The London Brighton & South Coast Railway, 2. Establishment & Growth, J.T Howard Turner, Batsford 1978. showing the bridge in both open and closed states. This states that the second (double track) bridge dates from 1862 and that this was further strengthened in the 1890s. The text page 134 et seq confirmes that the new bridge of 1862 was fundamentally different from the 1846 bridge and was built alongside the original bridge, which was dismantled on completion of teh new bridge, although is was still of the drawbridge form, Thus the bridge that you are looking at only existed between 1846 and 1862, ten years before the first Terrier Fenchurch was constructed.

 

One further thought I don't think that I have the relevant Middleton Press volume by Mitchell and Smith in my collection, but I would have thought that is the best source to that collates the available info.

[bertiedog]

The only thing that I would say - is the photo in Riley's book (taken in the mid '30s?) shows a totally different structure, with what appear to be cast iron under girders on the fixed spans and wrought iron(?) half through girders with a supplimental arch on the opening spans. So it looks like the timber spans were replaced in the late Victorian period (the use of CI girders must predate the Tay Bridge collapse).

 

I think you have answered a query I PM'd to you, as I think the photo may be the 1930's when the steel one was withdrawn and welded up solid. I seem to remember seeing such a shot before, many years ago, the bridge span goes up on hydraulics at one end and is then drawn over the track on opening, a bit different to the original, where the track moved sideways, before the whole bridge moved. It was the electrification of the line that caused the permanent closure of the bridge structure.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

I have now got your update and have traced the book on Amazon, but it will have to wait till I can afford it! Getting entire books for one or two shots is not the way to do it!

I will go ahead and scale the bridge and structure required, as I think the drawing is about the most detail available for the old bridge. The period is completely unimportant, It is the interest in the older Arun bridge that is the attraction, some Stroudley motive power will be used, some Craven stock and locos, and I suspect my pair of Cramptons will also run n the line as well!! .....a Tulk & Ley and LCDR layshaft Crampton., built at the time of Mike Sharman's exhibition layouts appearances...come to think about it there is also a Lion 042............

 

Stephen.

[Oldddudders]

In trawling through the net references to the area and it's railways I came across a reference or two to the rolling railway bridge on the River Arun, west of Brighton. This is a bit fascinating as i had heard of a bridge on the line that was drawn back to allow boats passage but assumed it rotated, as with Armstrong bridges, or lifted up like a bascule bridge, on counterweights.

 

 

It appears that there were two bridges, one replacing the other, one wood and one steel, that lifted one end slightly and then pulled the whole bridge back along the track, or in the first case they may have moved aside a section of track to allow the bridge to be retracted into the resulting gap.

 

The second type I have seen in other references for abroad in the past, but no reference for one that pulled the whole bridge on to the actual trackway. Either must have involved tremendous counterbalancing, as the weight is unsupported at the far end during retraction.

 

Has anybody seen any drawings of the bridge, I am aware of reprints of a Railway Magazine article with outline drawings, but little or no detail.

 

It appears the wooden one had towers with suspension cables to each end, the approach track was moved sideways, and then the while thing including the towers were pulled by winch on large wheels either side of the structure. They ran on track each side of the railway line. The steel version appears to have been a normal plate steel bridge, but raised the end and was pulled over the track to retract.

 

I will check with the NRM and the Science museum as the first type was said to be patented and may be traceable. ( The Science Museum was the Patent office repository in Victorian times).

 

Does any body else know of this very odd bridge or perhaps seen a model , maybe in local museums around the area in Sussex, perhaps in Brighton? Or are her any shots of it in the Middleton Press books of the area in the relevant volume?????

 

It would make a wonderful model to go with the diorama, if the operation can be sorted out. It would be the early one with the suspension towers and wooden construction.

 

Stephen.

Does this site add any value? http://www.myriverarun.com/arun_canal.html

 

Hamilton Ellis refers to the original bridge as the "telescope" in a passing reference, anent a pitch-in in 1851, when a driver ran-by onto the single line.

[10800]

Am I right in assuming that the second view is the reverse of the first, it shows the Scotch block, on the siding with the horse box parked up.

It appears to show the other side of the junction with the Brighton / Hastings platform in the background.

The over bridge is shown, with the buildings around it, but cannot see the signal box.

 

 

Does any body know of a vintage shot that shows the bridge as in the coloured postcard, with Roman style X palings on what looks like an open sided bridge with access to the road, but no station building I can make out, so assume a single storey ticket office behind the overbridge?

 

Stephen

 

I'd not been following this topic too closely through the Terrier construction (lovely though it is, just out of my time period) but my attention was grabbed by the old postcard photos and your plans for Lewes.

 

You will know that the station at Lewes was completely revamped in 1889, and much of the layout shown in the photos was lost. The first one shows the curved London platforms which post-1889 became part of the goods avoiding line, whilst the straight route to Brighton off to the left was obliterated. The odd Germanic looking building in the left background in the second survived at least to the 1950s, as did the very first Friars Walk 1846 station building.

 

As for the bridge in the second photo, you should get a copy of the Middleton Brighton-Eastbourne book which has several pre-1889 photos and a good plan of the pre-1889 layout. There is also a photo of the station building of that time, a rather odd chalet design that looks more like a Faller kit than a Sussex station building.

 

I have a copy from an old microfilmed plan which shows (somewhat confusingly, but you can make it out) both the old and new track layouts superimposed which I can lend you if you like.

 

Earlier in the topic the sheer size of Lewes for modelling in 4mm was mentioned. Well, as part of the Ouse Viaduct megaproject we are planning to do at least the main junctions at Lewes to join Balcombe and Eridge, but based in the 1950s, rather later than your version. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/showcase/?p=1954, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/275/entry-2998-ambitious-or-just-plain-crazy/ and http://www.rmweb.co....ial-full-monty/ . How far we will go in building Lewes is to be confirmed, but something around 20 x 15 ft has been pencilled in, and components for starting the main double junctions have been acquired. It's now just (!) a case of available time.

 

I'll keep in touch with your plans now with more interest!

[bertiedog]

The bridge will be built, it appears the information already gathered is all there is for the first Arun Rolling wooden bridge with towers. The Railway Magazine article mentions another design proposed, but never built. From what my Great Uncle said the bridge was a local landmark and considered worth travelling from Lewes to Arundel to see it operating, but I think from the dates in the Railway Magazine artical he either heard this from an earlier generation or referred to the later steel bridge. But he did mention towers that moved with the bridge, so it must be the first one.

 

 

It appears the wheels underneath formed a carriage, the weight of which countered the opposite side as it was withdrawn to the open position, so it cannot have sat on rollers. The spoked wheel in the centre moved with the bridge structure, presumably a roller was built into the permanent pier structure.

 

As winches were mentioned I assume a cable pulling on the structure, and I would assume a continuous cable, so that reversal would simply return the bridge. No counterweights were mentioned for the first bridge, so pulleys and gearing must have been used by the staff, quoted at "two men and a boy"

 

The line section that moved sideway I would assume again moved by pulleys and winches, and was wooden and iron construction like the bridge, the majority of which was wooden, with iron bracing at that early date.

 

The etching confirms the centre tower has an archway over the single line track. sharing the outer sides design.

 

The sides will require a jig to assemble all the railings, and a structure in metal covered with wood to model the deck and the towers. The operation in model form could take about 4 minutes to complete with a gearhead coreless motor powering it , with operation governed by micro switches, The sideways moving track would switch the main bridge action. In practice it might be better to have two motors to power the bridge.

 

Surprisingly compact in design it fits in under three feet or so, plus approaches. It should also have a barge automatically proceeding through the bridge as well, glass water and a magnetic connection to the boat from a tracking arm under the glass?

 

The whole area of Brighton, and the south coast area had engineering oddities like the Volks Railway, the Volks Sea Tramway, and this moving Rolling Bridge, with Hastings having two cliff railways. There was also the Funicular Railway at Devils Dyke., and along with Folkestone, Brighton seafront had a Switchback Railway, a Victorian form of a roller coaster ride..

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The size of the Rolling bridge comes out quite compact , 144 foot moving section, 63 foot sideways moving section, and 12 feet wide,

so 144 plus 63 = 207 foot and 12 wide,, or 828mm over all, and 48mm wide, (32.5 inches x 1.89 wide), plus an amount for approaches on the moving side, plus the river width, it would fit a four foot board base.... just.

[bertiedog]

Very basic rough layout idea, grayed area out would be covered, small version of station and approaches, with larger part of station track hidden under roadway, and bridge on the left, maybe at an angle to allow feed to the storage lines at the back. Allows plenty of operations along with the bridge.feature.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

A nice find, another postcard view , that shows the view to the left of the coloured postcard shot.

Copyright of content lapsed due to age.

 

They are a matched pair, the two shots were taken within minutes, careful examination of the edges shows the same horsebox with the doors open and the shadows exactly match. The viewpoint has moved by a few feet, making an exact line up impossible, but it clearly matches and provides a complete panoramic view.

 

 

There is a Stroudley Loco in the bay in the left hand shot, I think a Terrier, as it seems to be the right height.. The two Scotch blocks can be seen and now more clearly the need for them to protect the main lines. The Signals are clearly shown as well.

 

I would suspect the reverse view in the previous posts was taken on the same day.

 

A Craven loco can be seen in the sidings, very vague, but the right shape and chimney. The Swiss Chalet station building can be seen above the sidings on Station Road..

 

Stephen.

 

[bertiedog]

Blow up of the middle.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

Sorted out the old and new arrangement of the track, the station moved about 1/8th mile south with the re-alignment, removing the Brighton platforms and the track bed going south. ( grey areas are modern).

 

The blue arrow shows the panorama shot's taking position, looking down the to be closed Brighton section, before it's move. The date is 1887 for the shots, the station changed in 1889 to the modern layout.

 

Some references seem to confuse the signal box still in use with the pre 1889 arrangement, but it had a different Signal box on a gantry tower over the track on it's original track to Hastings.

All the arrangement changes were within a quarter mile long area, and left it looking much the same as before in general.

 

 

 

The dual platforms explain my Grandmothers reference to closing the "London Station", when Prisoners were transfered to the Police Black Moria's, that waited on Station Road Bridge to take people to the Lewes Court and Jail. They must have left the Brighton platform area open, being separate, but connected by the over bridge. The Railway "at the bottom of the Garden" was the Brighton line, not the London line. near the "Ham" mound.

 

Mr Stephens, her uncle, refered to "steel box wagons" transferring prisoners in Queen Victoria's time, ....were the LBSCR steel bullion wagons used? It had to be secure as many were Prisoners being sent for execution after trial at Lewes.

 

The goods yard and cattle docks, with the market yard would be packed on market days, and I do remember comments about the stink in the Station after Market days in the summer. The two distinct smells of Lewes were the Harvey Brewery and the Cattle.Market.

 

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

On the bridge , It seems from old Railway Magazine articles, that there was a second LBSCR Rastrick designed Rolling Bridge, to the same design as the Ford Arun bridge, on the line eastwards to Hastings from Lewes, crossing over the River Ouse.

 

It does not say exactly when it was replaced, but I would assume much the same period as the River Arun rolling bridge's replacement, about 14 years from building. It was the same size and had the twin tracks reduced to single to cross the bridge.

 

 

It is far more likely that this was the bridge mentioned by, or seen, by Mr Stephens, it may have lasted longer than the Arun one, and was much nearer Lewes. Sussex seems to have had more than usual strange engineering on the railways at the time!

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The Rastrick Rolling bridge over the Ouse was at Southerham, which is barely 3/4 mile from the Lewes station, and would have been clearly viewable from Mr Stephens house and garden. It was removed due to much more navigation on the river than at Arun, and may have been there about ten years. The modern bridge is a high level type, but I suspect not enough for sailing boats, which was why a rolling bridge was chosen at first to give complete clearance.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

I now have the EJ Bedford of Lewes book, and it includes most details needed for the Old Lewes Station, arrangements. There is the mystery of where the early Saxby junction signal box was sited, mentioned in some references as unknown,

 

I had also noticed the small turntable in the goods sidings at Lewes, and from the small size assumed a goods turntable although large for that purpose, and small for locos, but there does not seem to be any other turntable marked on the plans in the book..

 

The plan will be altered to cover the station better, with the sidings and the Swiss Chalet Station building. The trick of exposing less of the platforms length will be done, the passengers over bridges provide natural breaks, as does the over bridge at the eastern end. Space is at a premium, but the layout will not be moved , no exhibitions, so can be split around the corner of a room.

 

I see from the modelling of the Ouse viaduct, http://www.rmweb.co....howcase/?p=1954, that Rastrick designed Pavilions on the viaduct, which are very similar to the Tower Pavilion on the rolling bridges he designed. Of wood construction, not stone, in the case of the moving bridge.

 

For space reasons the Bridge will be moved to the Eastbourne side, as sited at Southerham over the Ouse.Maybe more details of this bridge will turn up.

 

I will stick to 00 rather than P4 , but will investigate the lightest bullhead rail sections actually made, and make the track sleeping to LBSCR pattern. A lot of the track in the station is ballast buried track fortunately, so PC track is possible without chairs.

 

Does anybody make bullhead rail section in under about 83/80 code size?.... perhaps made for scale TT

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

It seems C&L do nickel silver code 75 bullhead rail section and a three bolt chair, quoted as "SR", but what pattern were the LBSCR railway?

It will need chairs for the exposed pointwork, either used glued or split around studs set in wood sleepers. The main track would be PC sleepered or C&L chaired 16.5 at LBSCR spacings. There are some spare baseboards already prepared.about 2 feet deep, which can be altered to provide the bases.in a narrow Vee shaped layout.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The second postcard shot seems to show the turntable and it looks as if it is a cross pattern goods turntable, not a loco type, but is pretty vague in the shot, good excuse to fit a loco sized turntable anyway! It would use the small space to best advantage. The loco turntables on the LBSCR shown in the reference books are fully boarded type, very easy to model.

I have started to assemble some 4 wheel coaches from castings and a scratchbuilt passenger brake wagon. Does any body know of 4mm plans, (or scalable) , for the small LBSCR Horseboxes?

 

Stephen.