LBSC Lewes,based project locos and stock.

[bertiedog]

name='Penlan' timestamp='1301223644' post='363847'

 

PS - Bertiedog, would you need headlamps during daylight hours, or just the 'targets' - or have you made the square ones already?

Even when the target disk's are on , surely the lamps would be stored in the cab? and in the shot of Cheam there is very clearly a lamp fitted as well as the top disk, the lamp is in place on the farther spike on the front splasher being an A1

After photoshop.

I have made a prototype lamp, but I have got to set the lathe up for repeated work as there are about a dozen cuts on each lamp, plus drilling.

The crew are started, in brass from scratch, carved out with a Dremel and burrs, then a power engraver and hand graver tools, I used to make military model masters, this needs patience in 4mm though!

[burgundy]

"The crew are started, in brass from scratch, carved out with a Dremel and burrs, then a power engraver and hand gravure tooks, I used to make military model masters, this needs patience in 4mm though!"

 

Given that this thread has demonstrated the need for Victorian footplate crews (complete with caps and beards), is there any chance that these two could serve as masters before you put them to work on your Terrier?

 

Eric

[bertiedog]

I will make them suitable for whitemetal casting, they have to be as near solid as possible with silver soldering, for the mould making process if vulcanised moulds are used. My own casting is done in silicon moulds, but the masters still have to be durable. I may be able to run a batch of vacuum assisted resin cast figures myself.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Was Shoreditch in a cut and cover tunnel section, and required both lamps and disk's at the same time?

Stephen.

[burgundy]

Shoreditch was on the East London line from New Cross, so the loco would have been backwards and forwards through the Thames tunnel all day.

Eric

[bertiedog]

That explains both in use at the same time. the front has a centre mount for the disk as well.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Drawing of the LBSCR lamp , which has a round body, not a rounded square section, so easier to make in two pieces from round bar, on the lathe, with a simple form tool for the repeats. The scale precludes making the flutes on the lamp cap, but the rest can be done, with polished brass edges to the black body, lined in red.on the real lamp, but almost impossible at 4mm scale, as the square panel is about 1x1mm. It may be possible to do it with transfer stripes, but it's extremely fine work. The lens can be clear epoxy, cast into the recess.in the lamp front.

It would be possible to light it with the fine light guide from Xmas tree decorations or any .2 to .3 mm guide, powered by LED lamps in the tanks. There could be control for lamps if DCC is fitted later on, but it's plain 12 volts DC for the moment.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

On a slightly different subject, but related to services through Lewes, Sussex, does anybody know of details or drawings available for this LBSCR railmotor? If you have a book reference please include the ISBN number if possible, to be able to trace via library, as book purchase is too expensive.

Stephen

[bertiedog]

I assume that British Railmotors by David Jenkinson covers the LBSCR Railmotor types, as mentoned in reference websites, but does anybody have a copy of the 1996 book, and can confirm the content is useful for modelling?

Stephen.

[Nick Holliday]

whilst the Jenkinson book is fantastic if you are interested in the L&YR or the later Sentinel units, it is practically useless for any of the Southern lines, with only a couple of photos to redeem the complete lack of research on the subject. A better bet is R W Rush's book on British Steam Railmotors which was published by Oakwood Press. I cannot find my copy at the moment, so cannot give an ISBN but I have the feeling it predates this anyway. Although Rush has a poor reputation due to his misinterpretation of one L&YR drawing the book has scale drawings for almost every type that ran in the UK. I haven't checked his drawing of the LBSC car against the diagram but it looks pretty good. Part 3 of Bradley's RCTS trilogy contains some of the technical information.

[bertiedog]

That explains the web references to "poorly researched", I can find the other via ABE books or Ebay, ABE searches for authors very well..It was just an idea from the Poster, which gives no real idea whether it is a coupled bogie or single axle drive, or internal gearing from a Sentinel type engine. It would be quick to produce the body, but the bogie may be more complex if it is a miniature 040 chassis with outside valve gear!

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Amazon have several of the R. W. Rush soft-back books on Railmotors, on offer, and fairly inexpensive as well, so I may order one.

Many thanks for all the information, but has anybody built one of the LBSCR Railmotors?

Stephen.

[Penlan]

I shall now eat my hat, the beard's gone already..

Image from ASLEF's Brighton Branch web page at http://thebrightonmo...urces/fig4-lbsc[1].jpg

 

 

 

I'm not a Brighton follower (I'm LNWR), so lack the ability to know where to look for the Victorian era Head Codes, that would have the White Disc and the presumably a White with Green inner circle disc, I could only find details of the White and White with Black Cross discs, which presumably was a condensed list (approx 100) for the start of the 20th C.

 

Thus, I was just wondering if the lamp on 'Cheam' was a rear lamp? On the LNWR they used a White and Red lamp (one over each buffer, front and back) for engines doing Shunting/Station work in Victorian times (< 1903).

 

Just Curious, I like the Victorian/Edwardian period, what ever railway company we are discussing.

[Buckjumper]

In re the photo of Cheam at Shoreditch c1876. From the earliest days of headcodes, all locos travelling through the Thames Tunnel were required to carry a lamp with a white aspect on the RHS. Codes for trains traversing the ELR were obviously harmonised between the various companies using the line which eventually coalesced into the East London Railway Joint Committee. The white disc under the chimney and green disc with white border on the centre buffer beam denoted trains running between New Cross and Shoreditch. The disc code was still in force in the Edwardian period, and for example, appeared as code no. 27 in the 1906 GER Appendix to the WTT.

 

Incidentally, Cheam was one of only two New Cross based Terriers to survive the 1890s with its condensing equipment intact - the other being Surrey, which was in such a poor mechanical state that it was used solely as shed pilot. Of the rest of the class, only seven retained condensing equipment beyond 1901, three of which were withdrawn by the end of 1902, but a good number regained the apparatus with the introduction of push pull services in the mid 1900s (wearing Marsh's umber livery).

[Nick Holliday]

The locomotive part of the LBSC railmotor was identical to the North Staffordshire Railway's version. Worsley Works do an etching for the NSR Railmotor, so presumably someone has built that type. I have only ever seen one model of the LBSC railmotor and that was a very crude representation. The loco is actually an 0-2-2, with the outside cylinders over the trailing wheels.

[bertiedog]

I shall now eat my hat, the beard's gone already..

Image from ASLEF's Brighton Branch web page at http://thebrightonmo...urces/fig4-lbsc[1].jpg

 

 

 

That's the very picture I have been hunting down for several days!! Looks like a flat cap, and a fine set of whiskers! He may, of course, be the Drivers father!!!

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The locomotive part of the LBSC railmotor was identical to the North Staffordshire Railway's version. Worsley Works do an etching for the NSR Railmotor, so presumably someone has built that type. I have only ever seen one model of the LBSC railmotor and that was a very crude representation. The loco is actually an 0-2-2, with the outside cylinders over the trailing wheels.

 

I have been looking at the design and drawings, and it follows then current German and Austrian narrow gauge designs in a lot of ways, but is much larger and it has the trailing bogie rather than a single axle.

 

The whole chassis is articulated,just at the cylinder position, the Locomotive section could be said to be an 022, as the joint belongs to the coach underframe. The body is conventional, as is the boiler, just short in length, and applies the weight of it to the single driving axle, plus a balance to the rear pair, which support the joint pivot..

 

Quite easy to build, no rods, only the coupling to the cylinders, in model form it could power both axles with hidden coupling gears..

 

It is definitely going into production to go with the Terrier, even though a little later at 1906. The cab and boiler can be brass for weight, and the body mainly wood panelling from thin ply, oak strip frame, with veneer overlay. The roof can be constructed in boat hull style in oak wood planking over frames, easy and cheap!....no having to roll metal roofs, except for the small cab roof section.

 

A metal underframe in O gauge flat bottom section rail used upside down. with a thicker ply floor with wooden seats. The main problem is the spoked driving wheels, very small, I will check what is made commercially.. Virtually any small motor and gear set would do, reasonable space is available under the boiler.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

As usual with references they give different answers and the roofs seem a mystery on the LBSCR Railmotors, they are quoted as arched, not elliptical, but one photo shows elliptical in an end view, and the semi side view from Jenkinson's book appears to show arched on the loco section, and elliptical on the coach, as the rain strip is lower down the side and would need an elliptical shape to reach!

The LBSCR Railmotor Poster ( an unreliable source?) shows arch roof shape, so going with that I think., although the front does not agree with the back too accurately!

 

I assume the livery was white upper panels, and varnished wood or brown paint lower,.......... would this be correct?

LBSCR coaches were varnished wood , till maintanence required painting due to ageing varnish, they then changed to paint anyway. So as these were new in 1905/6, what was done, varnished wood, or the later brown paint?

 

On Bearded Victorian Drivers and Firemen, I am making master figures for the Terrier, and will have some resin (metal loaded) figures available in the near future if any body is interested. If demand exists, I can do all metal versions, both whitemetal or lost wax brass , these would be sold at cost on RM. Early Railway crew figures seem to have been disregarded by most makers, even Mike Sharman in his old range, which did include early Victorian Passengers at one time.

Stephen.

[Brake Compo]

I assume the livery was white upper panels, and varnished wood or brown paint lower,.......... would this be correct?

LBSCR coaches were varnished wood , till maintanence required painting due to ageing varnish, they then changed to paint anyway. So as these were new in 1905/6, what was done, varnished wood, or the later brown paint?

 

LBSCR coach livery changed from (nominally) varnished mahogany to lined unber and cream in 1903, although it appears that older coaches were scumbled prior to this. As far as I am aware varnished mahogany and cream panels never mixed.

 

Incidentally there is a very good drawing of the LBSC/LSWR joint railcars in Weddell's LSWR Coaches in the 20th Century.

[bertiedog]

LBSCR coach livery changed from (nominally) varnished mahogany to lined unber and cream in 1903, although it appears that older coaches were scumbled prior to this. As far as I am aware varnished mahogany and cream panels never mixed.

 

Incidentally there is a very good drawing of the LBSC/LSWR joint railcars in Weddell's LSWR Coaches in the 20th Century.

 

Does the Weddell book drawing show an arched roof or an elliptical type by any chance, as the other books only have side views?

Stephen.

[Nick Holliday]

The LSWR/LBSCR Joint Railcars were completely different animals from the Brighton's own one, so their roof shape won't help.

The roof line on the loco section of the LBSC version is different from that on the coach. The former appears to be an arc,

with a quasi-elliptical section for the carriage.

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the photos, it confirms the roofs being different profiles at the edges of the coach section, which is wider than the engine compartment.

I see the other Brighton designed one has splashered disc wheels, interesting difference.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Also it has a strange inside bearing trail bogies, and a solid chassis, no articulation? or did the engine form a small bogie of it's own?...maybe the boiler was rigid and the bogie pivoted with flexible steam pipes. Perhaps a design problem with Brighton's own design.

 

I think I'll stick to the other type, the No2 is easier to model, although the sides are quite complex , with awkward details on the windows.

It may pay to do etched panels, or built up master for cast resin.

 

Thoughts had turned to clear plastic overlays done on a printer, over painted inner panels, but it has a very flat look at an angle, the lack of raised and recessed panels shows too much, although P.C. Model coach got away with it.

 

The Terrier is having the chassis finished at the moment, brakes etc are being re-done, as Branchlines parts are too scale in size on the pivots, giving difficulty in drilling the pivots, the metal has to be doubled up in thickness, and larger pivot area provided. The wood block shoes are being fitted. The newer type are OK to drill as supplied, it is the older ones that are too delicate.

 

The K's wheels are going to be lightly re-profiled, as the flange is still far too big compared to RP-25 or modern fine scale OO. The back to back is correct at 14.5mm and set by the axles shoulder.

 

The tyre is a bit wide, but that makes no difference to running at all, and is even an advantage over pointwork. K's left a strange chamfer at the edge though, and it makes the tyre visually wider. A small facing cut can reduce the overall width, without narrowing the tyre.

All machining on K's has to be done with extreme care, the plastic spokes cannot really support the forces of lathe cutting, the wheel must be supported in a proper mandrill, not in a chuck, with drive pressure direct to the rim, not via the centre mounting.

The same applies to both Alan Gibson and Mike Sharman plastic wheels, if re-profiled in a lathe..

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

So in faded colour postcard style.....

[Nick Holliday]

The LSWR/LBSC Joint Railcar (for the Fratton to Southsea Joint Railway) was basically 100% LSWR in concept, from the pen of Dugald Drummond, hence some of the peculiarities, and the way the body design is based upon current LSWR practice. The original boiler, as shown, was vertical, which was enlarged for the second version, and subsequently replaced by a small diameter, high pitched, horizontal boiler. In its original form LSW No 1 was trialled on the GWR and somehow impressed them enough that they commenced their own, eventually rather more successful, series of steam railmotors. The Joint type was developed into the LSWR series of railmotors, which retained the slightly bizarre inside framed rear bogie. This later design was copied by the Alexandra Docks and Newport Railway, including the bogie.

The true Brighton were mainly designed by Beyer Peacock, hence they incorporated features such as outside Walschearts valve gear that didn't appear on other Brighton locos until ten years later. This was why they shared the motive power unit design with the North Staffordshire ones. The carriage parts were also supplied by an outside party, Dick, Kerr if I recall correctly, so, yet again, they do not match with standard Brighton practice, such as the roof profile, panelling and doors. The only LBSC elements would appear to be the umber and cream livery, and the brass numberplates, although, paradoxically, at the same time Douglas Earl Marsh was removing the cast plates as quickly as he could! The LBSC railmotor was definitely articulated, the carriage being suspended off the rear of the loco section.