LBSC Lewes,based project locos and stock.

[Kenton]

Not immediately helpful in identifying the turntable at Lewes in the 1870s/80s, but, I hope, of interest!

Only 50 years adrift and much had happened over those years at most of those sheds including both completely new sheds and very significant rebuilds in the early 1900's. In addition many sheds had gone completely out of use and been rationalised during that period.

 

Nevertheless, I found that a very useful list - thanks.

[bertiedog]

It's really the compact nature of the Eastern end of the old Station that should make it easier to model. With shorter than scale platforms coming out from under the over bridges full length trains can be run, but only exposing a handful of coaches to actual view when halted, whilst the bulk of the train is still out of sight..

 

I wonder if the bay that runs alongside the London up side was used for horses, as I can't see from the layout how they got to the roads, without using a bridge, or being led across running lines.

 

The Station or the Parcels Office may have had a ramp at some point, or the bay next to the down line could have been used , with it;s easy access to the lower roads. I wonder if horses were allowed on passenger platforms? or confined to dedicated bays at Lewes, they seem to have had a large amount of horse traffic at the station, the market attracting such trade. I wonder if there was an archway from the yard under the station approaches for animals to be taken through, and provide access for wagons to the yard.

 

No cattle dock at the old station?, they seem to have used Friars walk goods area, which would tie in with herding through the streets to the market site. Gran remembered the Cattle from about 1875 or so as a child, they left an immense mess!!

 

Lewes had a normal public market all week in the High Street, but this is far away from the Station area. Lewes was very much split between the upper and lower areas, middle class areas and the lower areas with railway, market, gas holders, sewage farms, dipping pens, etc., well away from the Old Town.

 

I wonder if the Harvey's Brewery generated any railway traffic, maybe hop pockets bought in to the brewery, but being a very local brewer I doubt they transported beer out of area, except to Brighton.

 

I know that Mr Stephens Snr., said the Station was always very busy, especially to Brighton, as the roads were poor, and very hilly, and still had toll charges on the Brighton Road.(and the London Road), even in the Edwardian period..

 

Stephen.

[Oldddudders]

With shorter than scale platforms coming out from under the over bridges full length trains can be run, but only exposing a handful of coaches to actual view when halted, whilst the bulk of the train is still out of sight..

Elsewhere on RMWeb "Waverley West" makes a great success of doing exactly that.

 

As for breweries, don't forget Beard's.

[Kenton]

The position of the turntable is a little confusing in relation to the shed.

An examination of the 1879 1:500 town map on http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

This map is very detailed and clearly shows the track layout and the various amenities (Smithy, Booking Office, Refreshments, Waiting Rooms, etc) in relation to each other and Station Road.

There was evidently a smaller "wagon" turntable positioned directly outside the shed and I suspect that this was added after the shed had passed into Goods Use (1870) even though the shed continued to be marked as "Engine Shed" on this map.

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the Old Maps reference, I have had a hard look and quickly scaled the turntable at 40 foot, so anything near that could be correct. Still cannot find the open framed Saxby signal box, as others say, it's location is a mystery, maybe at Friars, not the Old Station.

The way horses and animals were removed from the inner Station triangle is still obscure, but there are torturous routes from the upper bays to the raised Station road , or there might be a tunnel or under bridge walk through, but not from the inner triangle.

Maybe they were unloaded at the goods shed, and taken over the tracks via the road bridges to the market and the town beyond. Presumably the bay end platform, beyond the scotch blocks,in the first post card shot could have been used for carriages, but again where was the access to the platforms for wheeled transport?

Even though buildings are clearly listed on the 1:500 map, like the booking office, the paths are unclear and the ground levels a bit unclear..

The "Germanic" building along side the eastern bridges has a signal box along side and under the bridge, I assume the only box. The Germanic building apparently just about predated the railway, and became the gatehouse to the estate south of the line, which was removed with the re-alignment of the present station. The owner was a shareholder in the LBSCR.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Elsewhere on RMWeb "Waverley West" makes a great success of doing exactly that.

 

As for breweries, don't forget Beard's.

 

There were Harvey's, Beards, and Ballards breweries in Lewes, Harvey's are still there. Beards closed in the 1950's, and Ballards in the 1920's. Harvey's are still independent brewers. Visits to Lewes had a distinct heady "perfume", when the breeze was in the right direction over the town!!

[bertiedog]

More study of the ground levels at Lewes show the Swiss Chalet Station stands on the ground at the level of the yard, unlike the modern buildings, which are on a raised level modern road between the approach bridges.

On the original station you approached over the bridges, both from north and south, but dropped to the lower ground level for the Station building, and gates to the yard, so horses and stock could enter the yard easily.

The re-building raised the station buildings to the bridge approach level, removing a problem with water flooding from the Station forecourt..

The siding beyond the scotch blocks is a bay for Horse Carriage loading at the ends,, and the next over has three Horseboxes in place, one with doors open. The gates to the roadway are marked on the 1:500 local Lewes maps.

There's not much detail for the buildings, has anybody ever published any drawings? Most can be made out partially in the photos and books shots, but a lot of guesswork could be involved for the details.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The Craven 440 Tank No136 is getting the Alan Gibson gearbox bought for the K's mogul, another will be ordered. as the small size suits the tank loco better. very nice gearbox in ABS with selection pf brass bearings and sleeves for various shaft sizes.

The gearbox can be connected to the motor by a small universal joint, and allows springing more easily than an open gear. The brass sheet for the body is rough cut out, next to file and sand parts to size and start forming the parts.

[bertiedog]

Try page 78 of Brighton Line Album by RC Riley 1967/1972, where part of mechanism can also be seen. (ref rolling bridge)

 

A copy on way from Ebay at 99p........plus postage! an ex libris copy so not exactly mint, but for 99p who is worrying.

Stephen.

[Portchullin Tatty]

 

I note that these wheels (Gibsons from early on in his production?) do not have cast in crankpins. This is an issue that I face on one of my future projects.

 

How do you deal with these to make sure that the throw is exactly consistant?

[Jol Wilkinson]

I note that these wheels (Gibsons from early on in his production?) do not have cast in crankpins. This is an issue that I face on one of my future projects.

 

How do you deal with these to make sure that the throw is exactly consistant?

 

Chis Pendlenton (IIRC) has described his approach in MRJ. Essentially he makes a small steel jig, with a 1/8" stub to fit in the wheel and a suitable sized hole to guide the crankpin drill. I think using a small drill press helps as well, so the jig need only be about 3 - 4 mm thick.

 

It's not only important to get the axle to crankpin distance consistant, but also to ensure that the CP holes are vertical in all planes. The jig and drill press help with this too.

 

No doubt Stephen will be along soon with a detailed explanation involving some complicated engineering approach. I received my engineering training at Ford Motor Company, so that probably doesn't count.

 

Jol

[bertiedog]

No doubt Stephen will be along soon with a detailed explanation involving some complicated engineering approach. I received my engineering training at Ford Motor Company, so that probably doesn't count.

Ahh , the Car People who found it too complex to fit more than three gears in a car in the same period most cars had four............

Nothing complex at all, the older Alan Gibson wheels are moulded with holes, not right through, so just drill at right angles through the boss. A small jig can help if the siting is re-positioned, or you need to make sure they are the same throw. Alan Gibson make crankpins sets, as do Ultrascale and Markits,(2 versions at least), all will fit each other with drilling out to suit the parts.

Make sure the jig fits the face with a flat surface, front or back, it does not matter. Make from Steel if possible, drill out in pillar drill for accuracy.

 

(With respect to Gibson, do check the collars are drilled through the centre line concentrically, they had a couple bad batches, the issue is cured now, but check if they are older parts).

 

Current Gibson wheels are drilled right through and should be accurate as supplied, Ultrascale and Sharman wheels are drilled etc., as are Markits, new production has the correct throw for each type.

 

The only important thing is that the throws are the same, the throw distance is rarely totally critical in OO scale, except for appearance.

 

Longer throw types, like a GWR loco, do look odd with a short stroke, giving a small piston movement.

 

The problem with older makes of wheels was more the appearance of the boss being skimpy, Hamblings had to have a small boss and one throw only to fit the wheel press, and Romford just chose an average figure, which matched the old brass Essar wheels.

 

K's tried to fit the right stroke, but if they got that right it was let down by the rest of the wheel.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Just checked the older Gibson wheels, and more modern examples and they are accurate to under a thousand of an inch, or better, on positioning of the mark on the older version, and as accurate or better on the latest wheels.. This was checking on a measuring microscope.

A drill drifting as it enters the boss would cause an issue, so a jig is best. As always, drill a small guide hole first and then open up in stages to the final size..........But with the jig you could go in one size.

Complex?, anybody should be able to do it one way or another.

Stephen.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Stephen,

 

as ever, your postings carry a degree of authority so it's important to get the facts right.

 

Sharman Wheels have the crankpins moulded in.

 

Ultrascale crankpins differ in that they require (according to the instructions, which can be downloaded from their website) a 1.3mm dia, 1.6mm deep counterbore on the front face of the wheel. This is moulded into their wheel but would not be in an AG wheel.

 

I would totally agree with the use of a jig when drilling out any crankpin hole, to minimise the chance of the drill wandering.

 

Jol

[Kenton]

I would totally agree with the use of a jig when drilling out any crankpin hole, to minimise the chance of the drill wandering.

Which is why it is so challenging and certainly not so simple.

Most people have neither access to a jig or the equipment, let alone knowledge, on how to produce one.

[bertiedog]

What's the problem? ....a scrap of 1/8th steel will do, and two holes, one to take a stub of 1/8th steel, Loctited or soldered in, and a hole of the size for the tapping size of the crankpins or a clearance on bolted ones. Aluminium will do, brass will do, any hard metal will do.

 

 

The holes should be at right angles to the surface, it does help to have a press drill, but a Black and Decker drill stand will do, any lathe will do, a Dremel drill stand will do, but there are other ways to get a reasonable right angle.

 

• Any pre-drilled metal block with a 1/8th hole in it can be clamped to the scrap jig piece and will guide the drills in at right angles,
• .Any block with a hole less than 1/8th will do, just open up to size afterwards. Same applies to the crankpin hole, just start small at about 1mm or 1.5mm( Dependant on the crankpins size).

• You may find an old piece of aluminium with holes pre-drilled and can take the stub axle direct without drilling, leaving just the second hole to drill out. Aluminium extrusions, window frames , shower frames, all have pre-drilled holes.

• No blocks or scrap with holes?, but you have a Black and Decker,. drill a small block of aluminium and fit a 1/8 rod, put the rod in the chuck and sand and file the face to run true, pull out rod and use as drill jig. primitive but it works,

• Use an archimedian hand drill, very easy to hold upright by eye, or checked with a square, (metal, school plastic, or a decent sheet of paper!) If you have a steel V block this can be used to guide the drill.
• No steel V block?, but you have a mitre block in wood, then cut a hard wood V block by hand and run the drill against the V
• No mitre block?, then saw two pre planned bits of B&Q battens, and glue together with superglue, and use the corner produced to guide the drills.

Really the drilling of two holes reasonably accurately by eye should be no problem to any home mechanic or indeed anybody involved in any craft hobby work.

Stephen.

[Horsetan]

Maybe there's a market for making and selling these jigs? Would be useful if you're trying to re-drill for the correct crank throw on wheels that don't have them, e.g. the 9F's 28" throw on a 5' wheel which is only currently available with 24").

[bertiedog]

And covering all bases I did not say that Sharman were drilled but said "drilled etc.," However I have early wheels by Mike Sharman that are not fitted with crankpins in place, (or they had been removed.) They were a batch to be filed away to remove the bosses entirely for single drivers. As far as I know Sharman are not made for commercial sales any more, but are used in some kits. His own rule was to make the wheels exact to a prototype, no generic types.

 

Oddly one of the easiest crankpins to fit are the Romford type that copy Hamblings, these have a large collar that is pulled tight to the front of the wheel at right angles, even if the hole is very slightly out of true. They are a screw fit in 10BA, but have no outer bolt, only soldered washers, and are old fashioned compared to the newer de-luxe Markits versions, or the Ultrascale type.

 

On Ultrascale the counter-boring is easy, the hole is there already and a small drill in an archimedian hand drill is all thats needed. The existing hole guides it and you are very unlikely to go far wrong. I believe that they do not pre-counter drill them out in case other methods are chosen by the modeller, a bit of flexibility designed in, to allow plain or screwed in types to be used.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Maybe there's a market for making and selling these jigs? Would be useful if you're trying to re-drill for the correct crank throw on wheels that don't have them, e.g. the 9F's 28" throw on a 5' wheel which is only currently available with 24").

 

Unfortunately each wheel really requires a custom jig for it, the bosses vary along with the throw, some may require drilling from the back, or the jig made long enough to run on the back of the rim, or have a recess for any raised boss on the back of the wheels, like Markits.

 

 

There are so many variations each would be custom, and simply making one on the spot is the best way.

 

There is no problem whatsoever with drilling in a pillar drill, lathe or milling machine, but you can get by without, with a little application and thought.

 

Also the example you give is 1.3mm / 2 (.65mm) short of the throw at each end , barely noticeable, and preferable to over throw! Of course it should be correct, but are the glands etc., as correct? It is only in the last few years the correct diameter pistons rods are used, some cast kit makers used handrail wire with cast white metal crossheads, quite horrible.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

A few moments thought, a bit of wood, old plank and battens and a small hand drill with the handle drilled through to run up and down on a stout dowel, just needs a bit of attention to assembling at right angles by inspection and adjustment, and you have a hand pillar drill for small work.......about a hour to make...and Poundland had complete drills recently.......

 

 

 

You do not need expensive equipment to get good results, just a bit of application.

Stephen.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I would suggest that most modellers would rather invest in a commercially made jig if one was available, than go to the lengths you describe for your various inexpensive solutions.

 

This really only applies to Alan Gibson wheels, the others currently available already having the hole drilled/moulded or the c/p moulded in. So perhaps a steel disc, with crank pin alignment holes at various radii to match the common crank throws, would fit the bill. It could be counterbored as required for use from the rear of the wheel.

 

However, as Colin Seymour of AG seems to be moving towards all wheels having the c/p hole moulded in (see their latest website catalogue) it appears that it wouldn't be worth producing a jig commercially.

 

Jol

[bertiedog]

The 99p RC Riley "Brighton Line Album " has arrived, more use for the later years, but at that price worth it. Still after the Middleton press books.at the moment. The Burtt books seem to be rare and expensive, but looking at Ebay and Amazon.

[bertiedog]

The Locomotives of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway 1839-1903

The above book poses a problem,...... prices range from £60 to £10 and there are re-prints, soft back, and hardback versions.

As it is the outline drawings I need, are the re-printed versions OK? Amazon have a hardback cheap, re-print version, which I may order if someone can confirm it is the best source for details of Craven Locos.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Getting back to the Terrier, I think the wheels may have to be changed, one is out of true, and difficult to put right easily, it would have to be bushed and then be a push fit on to the axle.

Also K's plastic is rather soft compared to ABS used by makers now, and taking them off and on is affecting the fit.

The whole set could be drilled out, bushed with a brass centre and reamed or bored to fit accurately, but it's a lot of work and the rims are still too course compared to latest wheel standards, no much, but it is noticeable against RP-25 or finer standards. I'll have to check what's made in the Terrier size.

 

Does anybody know the source of the D1 042 Stroudley tank locomotive, front and side plans? I have the wheels now and may scratch build one along with the Craven 440. I now have enough motors and gears for these as well.

 

Stephen.

[Oldddudders]

The Locomotives of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway 1839-1903

The above book poses a problem,...... prices range from £60 to £10 and there are re-prints, soft back, and hardback versions.

As it is the outline drawings I need, are the re-printed versions OK? Amazon have a hardback cheap, re-print version, which I may order if someone can confirm it is the best source for details of Craven Locos.

Never having seen an original, I cannot compare them, but the edition I bought new in the '70s (ISBN 0 901759 87 2) has 7 photos & 144 illustrations which look ok to me. The repro is by Branch Line, Hassocks, Sussex. It adds an intro by W.O.Skeat, whose CV includes an apprenticeship under Gresley.