Kernow Adams O2

[Re6/6]

Additional to the above: Gibson do wheels for this #4858 with the usual 1/8" (3.14mm) axle so some thought would be needed about bushing.

 

Not impossible but the alternative of a new chassis may be the better option.

 

Anyway, there you have it. AFAIAC it will be a bottom drawer occupant for a while yet!

[PenrithBeacon]

How so?

 

Lots of P4 modellers look to the conversion guides in the EM Gauge Society Manual.

This is true, I've done it myself. The issue here though is that there doesn't seem to be room for P4 wheelsets. It also seems to be true that possible conversions were ruled out at the design stage, which is a pity. Never mind; a simple commercial decision on Kernow's part. I won't be buying one.

 

Regards

[BlackRat]

This is true, I've done it myself. The issue here though is that there doesn't seem to be room for P4 wheelsets. It also seems to be true that possible conversions were ruled out at the design stage, which is a pity. Never mind; a simple commercial decision on Kernow's part. I won't be buying one.

Regards

Then don't, no probs.

 

The loco was designed for OO, to sell to OO modellers.

 

Isn't it a bit like whining that you bought a Ford car, but a BMW etc engine won't drop straight into it?

 

I know from Chris T that a lot of thought etc was put into this at the design stage.

 

It was his commercial decision to make, and his alone.

 

The model has sold very well, it cannot be calculated how many would be sold for conversion, it my best guess is that it would be a very low number indeed, when compared to the sale of the OO models.

Edited September 7, 2016 by BlackRat

[Dunsignalling]

Then don't, no probs.

 

The loco was designed for OO, to sell to OO modellers.

 

Isn't it a bit like whining that you bought a Ford car, but a BMW etc engine won't drop straight into it?

 

I know from Chris T that a lot of thought etc was put into this at the design stage.

 

It was his commercial decision to make, and his alone.

 

The model has sold very well, it cannot be calculated how many would be sold for conversion, it my best guess is that it would be a very low number indeed, when compared to the sale of the OO models.

I remember reading an interview with Alan Gibson some years back (in MRJ?) where he stated that his wheel sales broke down roughly as 95% OO, 4% EM and 1% P4.

 

That 95% comprised only those OO modellers who weren't content with what came fitted to their models as standard, and r-t-r wheels have greatly improved since then. I doubt the segment of the total 4mm market wanting to convert a small ex-LSWR tank loco to P4 is great enough to justify very much additional development time/cost.  

 

I any case, how many modellers working to 18.83mm gauge are content just re-wheeling r-t-r mechanisms? Most I have encountered go in for compensation or full springing so would ditch the standard chassis anyway.

 

John

Edited September 7, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Re6/6]

The model has sold very well, it cannot be calculated how many would be sold for conversion, it my best guess is that it would be a very low number indeed, when compared to the sale of the OO models.

 

I would agree Neil. When in conversation a while ago with the editor of one of the magazines, l raised this very point about allowing clearances for the 'wider persuasion' at the design stage.He told me that according to the manufacturers that a high proportion of purchases made never leave the box let alone are played with! 

 

The incentive to do anything for EM or P4 modellers is just not there...at least with the 'major' manufacturers. That seems not to be not the case with Kernow stuff. I'm particularly looking forward to the forthcoming Class 71 which has been reported as having clearance designed in.

 

 

This is true, I've done it myself. The issue here though is that there doesn't seem to be room for P4 wheelsets. It also seems to be true that possible conversions were ruled out at the design stage, which is a pity. Never mind; a simple commercial decision on Kernow's part. I won't be buying one.

 

Regards

 

I beg to differ here. There is clearance, albeit small, at the front splashers.

 

The 'across face' measurement of the Gibson wheels is 22mm and the space between the inside faces of the splashers is 22.7mm, a bit tight but if it causes worry the insides faces can be 'thinned' as there is enough meat there at the 0.8mm thick plastic.

 

There is plenty of clearance in the cut-outs on the chassis weight.

 

 

[Re6/6]

How easy did the weight around the motor remove - on the production one I have I undid both screws but it would not shift.

Mine fell out after screw removal so perhaps a little gentle persuasion is needed!

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

 

I beg to differ here. There is clearance, albeit small, at the front splashers.

 

The 'across face' measurement of the Gibson wheels is 22mm and the space between the inside faces of the splashers is 22.7mm, a bit tight but if it causes worry the insides faces can be 'thinned' as there is enough meat there at the 0.8mm thick plastic.

 

There is plenty of clearance in the cut-outs on the chassis weight.

...

Thank you for that, but I'm a little unsure of just what model your photos illustrate. Are these photos of an 'undecorated' 02?

 

Regards

Edited September 7, 2016 by PenrithBeacon

[Re6/6]

It is a 'pre-production' 02 and is 'undecorated'

 

I would assume that they are exactly as the production models, certainly in the chassis department. Any differences would probably have been in the body detailing.

 

i also have a 'decorated' SR version which is unpowered and it is exactly the same chassis wise.

 

 

Eventually if l can successfully convert (rigid) the motorized one l intend to swap chassis. I'm fairly confident that success will be achievable but if not then Gibson milled frames (LM1 117) or SE Finecast kit (EC153) would be the solution. I'm not sure though if the SEF chassis have hornblock cut-outs etched in.

 

Anyway, I hope that these observations will have been helpful for potential converters.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Re6/6

[Horsetan]

...I'm not sure though if the SEF chassis have hornblock cut-outs etched in.

 

If you're coming to Scaleforum, I'm sure Dave Ellis will be happy to pull an etch out of a box and show you.

[Porcy Mane]

Stimulating debate on conversions to other gauges. I find the photographs of the original wheels interesting as they appear to be cast in the same material as the chassis and this has me wondering what their long term resistance to wear will be.

 

I was most interested in the size of the 12 volt motor. I have often thought that the physical size of motors used for 4mm locos to be to large, the advantage of the larger motor not being one of torque but reduced RPM. The motor appears identical to that used by Bachmann in their Birkenhead tram and that has excellent slow speed performance.

 

For me,  I could find a multitude of other uses for that motor in 4mm applications so I've been keeping an eye out for it appearing on ebay and similar sites They must be getting manufactured in their tens of thousands by some manufacturer. No joy to date, so I'm awaiting the availability of spares from DJM as promised.

 

For Comparison with the pics in post #1560, this is the motor/Gearbox as fitted in the Bachmann tram. 

 

P

Edited September 7, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I find the photographs of the original wheels interesting as they appear to be cast in the same material as the chassis and this has me wondering what their long term resistance to wear will be...

 Determined by the materials choices and production standard of the platings applied to the wearing surfaces of the wheel and block through which conduction must occur. Be good to hear from intensive operators, what life they get from these mechanisms, in the fulness of time.

[PenrithBeacon]

Stimulating debate on conversions to other gauges. I find the photographs of the original wheels interesting as they appear to be cast in the same material as the chassis and this has me wondering what their long term resistance to wear will be.

 

I was most interested in the size of the 12 volt motor. I have often thought that the physical size of motors used for 4mm locos to be to large, the advantage of the larger motor not being one of torque but reduced RPM. The motor appears identical to that used by Bachmann in their Birkenhead tram and that has excellent slow speed performance.

 

For me, I could find a multitude of other uses for that motor in 4mm applications so I've been keeping an eye out for it appearing on ebay and similar sites They must be getting manufactured in their tens of thousands by some manufacturer. No joy to date, so I'm awaiting the availability of spares from DJM as promised.

 

For Comparison with the pics in post #1560, this is the motor/Gearbox as fitted in the Bachmann tram.

BmannB-head-Tram-02-2sm.jpg

 

P

I spoke to one of the blokes manning the Kernow stand at Swindon today and the pick-ups for this model are via split axles. This means that the illustrations in the post above don't match the 02. It also means, I think, that unless one of the two finescale wheel suppliers do the biz a conversion to P4 is going to be difficult. EM might be alright if it's possible to pull the wheels out a little, but I think P4 is beyond my capabilities for certain.

 

Regrets ...

[Izzy]

Stimulating debate on conversions to other gauges. I find the photographs of the original wheels interesting as they appear to be cast in the same material as the chassis and this has me wondering what their long term resistance to wear will be.

 

I was most interested in the size of the 12 volt motor. I have often thought that the physical size of motors used for 4mm locos to be to large, the advantage of the larger motor not being one of torque but reduced RPM. The motor appears identical to that used by Bachmann in their Birkenhead tram and that has excellent slow speed performance.

 

For me,  I could find a multitude of other uses for that motor in 4mm applications so I've been keeping an eye out for it appearing on ebay and similar sites They must be getting manufactured in their tens of thousands by some manufacturer. No joy to date, so I'm awaiting the availability of spares from DJM as promised.

 

For Comparison with the pics in post #1560, this is the motor/Gearbox as fitted in the Bachmann tram. 

BmannB-head-Tram-02-2sm.jpg

 

P

 

I have always considered that motors need matching to the overall gear reduction, since in general torque is proportional to RPM and the smaller the motor the lower the torque and the faster the RPM (for the same rated voltage). It is only in more recent times that makers in general have started to employ multiple gear trains and larger total reductions thus reducing the need for large and powerful motors. it is noticeable that the tram seems to have two worm gear reduction stages, and it would be interesting to discover what the total reduction actually is, along with the size of the small coreless can motor, as it looks almost identical in size to that now used in the latest Farish N gauge steam locos, but can't be since they would far too small. Can anyone state the size  and shaft dia?

 

Izzy

[Porcy Mane]

I spoke to one of the blokes manning the Kernow stand at Swindon today and the pick-ups for this model are via split axles. This means that the illustrations in the post above don't match the 02. It also means, I think, that unless one of the two finescale wheel suppliers do the biz a conversion to P4 is going to be difficult. EM might be alright if it's possible to pull the wheels out a little, but I think P4 is beyond my capabilities for certain.

 

Regrets ...

 

David I'm at a bit of a loss to as to why you say the picture in my post doesn't match the O2. It was never meant to. It was purely to compare the physical size of the motors.

 

From previous postings by Dave Jones ( and others) regarding the design of his chassis I thought it was pretty common knowledge the electrical pick up was via split frames. How the split frame design is achieved clearly shown by the last two photos in post #1560  and particularly in post  #1577. The insulation/isolation frame is clearly visible.

 

For a gauge change to EM; the O2 chassis/wheel/Axle arrangement being similar to the DJM J94/Austerity, it would seem to be a simple pull out job as demonstrated by ANDY Y here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83043-oo-gauge-j94-austerity-tank-locomotive/page-16&do=findComment&comment=2386906

 

Of course, with the O2 there will be the added complication of ensuring adequate splasher clearance for the OEM wheels and the brake gear and pull rods would need attention.

 

For P4 depending on the durability of the metal that the driving wheel/stub axle assembly are made of, along with the diameter of stub axle, I would personally consider turning off the entire wheel assembly, then reduce (or sleeve up) the remaining stub axle end to the correct diameter to accept a Gibson wheel. Wheels would then have to be quartered in the conventional way and an alternative pick up method arranged.

How feasible this would be, I couldn't say without trying it.

 

 

 Can anyone state the size  and shaft dia?

 

 

May need to start a new topic on this as I fear we may be moving away from the E2.

Bachmann Motor is 7 mm Dia x 16.5 mm L. Shaft is 1 mm Dia. probably extending 3 mm from the body end. The shaft sits some way down the worm wheel bore. having removed it from my 101 and stripped it to count worm leads and worm wheel teeth I calculate the gearing to be 52:1.

From a steer I was given by PM yesterday the motor may be rated at 24 volts.

 

P

Edited September 12, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Izzy]

May need to start a new topic on this as I fear we may be moving away from the E2.

Bachmann Motor is 7 mm Dia x 16.5 mm L. Shaft is 1 mm Dia. probably extending 3 mm from the body end. The shaft sits some way down the worm wheel bore. having removed it from my 101 and stripped it to count worm leads and worm wheel teeth I calculate the gearing to be 52:1.

From a steer I was given by PM yesterday the motor may be rated at 24 volts.

 

P

 

Thanks P.

 

So, they are the same size as used in the new Farish stuff. I'm stunned. They are powerful, but I would have never considerd them suitable for 4mm use. Were available on ebay from China/Hong Kong recently, might still be. About £2-3 for batches of 4 IIRC - I got a few, along with some of the Mitsumi ones. Search for micro-motors or 7x16 coreless.

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

[Porcy Mane]

Thanks P.

 

Search for micro-motors or 7x16 coreless.

 

 

 That's the info I was given yesterday.  Still available.

Seems like I now have far more motors of varying styles and sizes stashed away in the roundtuit cupboard than I have un-built kits.

 

P

[BlackRat]

Size is no indication of performance....;-)

 

I've already remotorerd some stuff with cd drive motors, and along with a change of wheels the results can be remarkable.

 

I never ditch anything with a motor in now before stripping the unit out for later use......

 

Got quite an eclectic collection now.....which will no doubt come in useful 'one day'.

[DJM Dave]

Size is no indication of performance....;-)

 

As my missus will testify..........sadly lol

[Porcy Mane]

Size is no indication of performance....;-)

 

1) Hmm. Seems like we may be of a similar disposition.

 

I've already remotorerd some stuff with cd drive motors, and along with a change of wheels the results can be remarkable.

 

2) Hmmmmm. Seems like we may be of a similar disposition.

 

One of the easiest engine swaps I've ever done using the 13 volt drives. Mounting screw holes aligned perfectly with existing Hornby slots and changing the drive pinion was a straight exchange. For a laugh I installed a 3 volt drive into one bogie. Set it away at a full 12 volts pulling a bit of  5" x 2" x 2" solid steel bar taped to an old Dublo Pass fruit chassis round a circle of track. . It was still going strong 48 hours later. Stripped it out and all was well apart from the brass axle bushes had worn through and the axles where slowly polishing their way to freedom through the mazak. Strangely, the nylon drive gears showed no wear whatsoever yet their mazak spigots had worn to a nice oval shape.

One of my "Winking Pig" conversions.

 

 

I never ditch anything with a motor in now before stripping the unit out for later use......

 

3) Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems like we may be of a similar disposition.

 

Got quite an eclectic collection now.....which will no doubt come in useful 'one day'.

 

 

4) Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!. Seems like we may be of a similar disposition.

 

P

P.s. You're not me and I'm replying to myself by any chance?

Edited September 13, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Horsetan]

.....One of the easiest engine swaps I've ever done using the 13 volt drives. Mounting screw holes aligned perfectly with existing Hornby slots and changing the drive pinion was a straight exchange. ....

 

Hby-Bogie_CDmtrSm.jpg

 

 

 

This was basically what the now-defunct business ModelTorque offered, as do these guys.

 

Nothing wrong with them, and they take up a little less space than the original innards. Tried a ModelTorque one in a Lima Cl.40 bogie ages ago and it was fine, so I did a second one.

[Porcy Mane]

 

This was basically what the now-defunct business ModelTorque offered, as do these guys.

 

Could be that they are defunct because DIY conversion was so simple and virtually free when salvaging throw away components.

 

P 

[Horsetan]

Could be that they are defunct because DIY conversion was so simple and virtually free when salvaging throw away components.

 

Apparently not, because the man who ran the enterprise in Australia unfortunately died, and those who survived him didn't want to carry on the business. He also produced a clutch transmission system as a sort of alternative to DynaDrive - never got to try a sample, unfortunately.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Horsetan

[Porcy Mane]

and those who survived him didn't want to carry on the business. 

 Sadly, a fact of life  (Due to death), when it comes to Model Railway businesses.

 

 

He also produced a clutch transmission system as a sort of alternative to DynaDrive - never got to try a sample, unfortunately.

 

Probably ended up just like the Dyna-drive conversion. Excellent running but way over engineered Just like Mr. Lythgo's "Hornby Coupling uncoupler" .

 

I did a dynadrive conversion years ago and soon tired of it as it would slip (wheels not clutch) to a standstill when attempting to pull four very free running Mk 1's up a very slight gradient or around a 3' 6" radius curve.

It was sold on with the warning to the new owner that it wouldn't pull a decent load but would free wheel a good distance. It was brought it back to me about month later to repair.

 

It was in a right state with all sots of cosmentic damage, a cracked body and the un-driven bogie detached. In an envelope was a few internal components that had escaped. The new owner held the loco to my ear and gave it a gentle shake. It sounded like a broken thermos flask. He had freewheeled it through the buffers (peco clip ons) and off the end of his layout, falling four feet onto a concrete floor.

 

He has only ever played with his direct drive locos after that experience.

 

I fear all this rambling takes us way, waaaay off topic.

 

P

Edited September 13, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Horsetan]

.....He had freewheeled it through the buffers (peco clip ons) and off the end of his layout, falling four feet onto a concrete floor.

 

He has only ever played with his direct drive locos after that experience.

 

I fear all this rambling takes us way, waaaay off topic.

 

Perhaps there are some people who shouldn't be let loose near a model? 

[Porcy Mane]

Perhaps there are some people who shouldn't be let loose near a model? 

And some that are expert armchair/keyboard modellers...

 

P