Kernow Adams O2

[woodenhead]

Is it likely that there will be a rerun of the 02 in Southern Maunsell green livery?

Would be nice, I missed out last time because I prevaricated when I should have been buying.

 

However, the remaining stocks in other liveries look to have slowed down in sales, Kernow are even resorting to offers on one BR model suggesting stocks are quite high on it so an extra run of the Southern looks unlikely in the short term.

[john flann]

I rarely dip into this thread but when I last did I saw a post (#1624 by ChrisG) regarding my vexations with the O2. These are at an end. Both the friend on whose behalf I was acting and myself have, acting independently got rid of their 02's.

 

In it's place I have a very satisfactory pre-owned Hornby M7.

 

I didn't enjoy my experiences with the O2. Principally because iI don't think I got value for money..

 

Sad in a way for I have a sentimental attachment to the O2's. That arises because it was on 221 I had as a boy, my first footplate ride the length of the Portland Branch from Easton to Melcombe Regis.

Edited June 9, 2017 by john flann

[Caddy]

I rarely dip into this thread but when I last did I saw a post (#1624 by ChrisG) regarding my vexations with the O2. These are at an end. Both the friend on whose behalf I was acting and myself have, acting independently got rid of their 02's.

 

In it's place I have a very satisfactory pre-owned Hornby M7.

 

I didn't enjoy my experiences with the O2. Principally because iI don't think I got value for money..

 

Sad in a way for I have a sentimental attachment to the O2's. That arises because it was on 221 I had as a boy, my first footplate ride the length of the Portland Branch from Easton to Melcombe Regis.

 

Hello John

 

Sadly I agree totally with you. I gave up on my 02, a loco I was so looking forward to and have 2 M7's in service again both running superbly after many years now and soon to be joined by the new Hornby 0-4-4T.

 

I know others have had no problems with their 02's but I have a layout running to timetable requiring many smooth starts and stops and shunting moves and the 02 I received was just not smooth or reliable enough. Hope to be over at Kernow again early next year - perhaps I can find one there that suits after a good test run. I really do want one for the gate stock when it arrives.

[ChrisG]

Hello John

 

Sadly I agree totally with you. I gave up on my 02, a loco I was so looking forward to and have 2 M7's in service again both running superbly after many years now and soon to be joined by the new Hornby 0-4-4T.

 

I know others have had no problems with their 02's but I have a layout running to timetable requiring many smooth starts and stops and shunting moves and the 02 I received was just not smooth or reliable enough. Hope to be over at Kernow again early next year - perhaps I can find one there that suits after a good test run. I really do want one for the gate stock when it arrives.

 

That really sounds like a one-off rogue model because generally speaking these locos are lovely runners. 

 

Chris

[JSpencer]

Both of mine are lovely runners. That said neither have been pushed hard nor run very often (mainly because the Gate stock is not out yet).

[john flann]

Caddy, my Hintock/Port Bredy layouts are operated to a sequence where like your timetable running reliability is a  prerequisite.

 

The M7's as you say are that and I'm very satisfied.

 

In fact I'm relieved the 02 is off my hands.

[ChrisG]

Same as me, when I lifted Ventnor off for wheel cleaning a few of months ago, the bogie was left on the track.  No sign of screw or spring but could have been missing for ages, track cleaned and vacuumed once a week and lots of it.  Runs OK without being properly attached, but no back-up for spares it seems.

 

 

I have finally cleaned the wheels on mine after weathering it savagely. The basic mechanism works fine, but put back on the track with the trailing bogie not screwed on, and without the spring, the running is most unsatisfactory. It badly affects the haulage capacity and the rear wheel on the trailing bogie no longer revolves. Pretty unsatisfactory. I will start searching on the internet for possible replacement screws and a spring. But mainly I am just angry with Kernow (for passing the buck) and DJM (for failing to commission a supply of spares). 

 

 

Chris

[Roy Langridge]

I have finally cleaned the wheels on mine after weathering it savagely. The basic mechanism works fine, but put back on the track with the trailing bogie not screwed on, and without the spring, the running is most unsatisfactory. It badly affects the haulage capacity and the rear wheel on the trailing bogie no longer revolves. Pretty unsatisfactory. I will start searching on the internet for possible replacement screws and a spring. But mainly I am just angry with Kernow (for passing the buck) and DJM (for failing to commission a supply of spares).

 

 

Chris

And yourself for dropping it on the floor? I too have lost bits before that I cannot source as a spare, but I haven't felt the need to blame the suppliers for not having them available.

 

Roy

Edited July 13, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[phil-b259]

 Pretty unsatisfactory. I will start searching on the internet for possible replacement screws and a spring. But mainly I am just angry with Kernow (for passing the buck) and DJM (for failing to commission a supply of spares). 

 

 

Chris

 

Tis the way of the world - most consumer goods / Toys (and yes model railway items ARE still considered 'Toys' but most of those not in the hobby) are not designed to be repairable when they break. Moreover extra 'spares' still have to be paid for at time of manufacture and as any accountant with half a brain will advise tieing up capital on stuff that will sit on the self for years is bad business practice. Yes Kernow are not some huge multinational with demanding City shareholders / venture capitalists / etc to satisfy, but they are also very much a small local business that can ill afford to throw away capital on non-essentials - which includes providing extensive spares.

 

True things weren't always like this - but we collectively sold our souls to rampant capitalism in the belief that embracing the power of the 'free market' would make us all rich. Unfortunately what makes certain people rich does not always work out best for consumers / workers / society or the planet, but by the time we realise it, things have changed too much to go back.

Edited July 13, 2017 by phil-b259

[PMP]

 Yes Kernow are not some huge multinational with demanding City shareholders / venture capitalists / etc to satisfy, but they are also very much a small local business that can ill afford to throw away capital on non-essentials - which includes providing extensive spares.

 

 

 

Well DJM have from day one made plenty of comments about full spares availability from time of release, made it a bit of a sales pitch in fact. http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=253

If those spares aren't available you can hardly complain about customers complaining about a service or facility promised, but not delivered.

[phil-b259]

Well DJM have from day one made plenty of comments about full spares availability from time of release, made it a bit of a sales pitch in fact. http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=253

If those spares aren't available you can hardly complain about customers complaining about a service or facility promised, but not delivered.

 

Ahh yes - it was the 14XX from Hattons had the 'no spares' policy.

 

Mind you if Chris G has been in communication with Kernow / DJM and not been able to get the parts required then its always possible that they were only ever supplied in small quantities and are now all gone.

 

Alternatively wasn't there a loco / project where DJM was due to receive a full compliment of spares from China but the factory concerned never made them and when it was discovered this had happened it was too late to correct it as the factory had already moved on to making something else?

[JSpencer]

 

Alternatively wasn't there a loco / project where DJM was due to receive a full compliment of spares from China but the factory concerned never made them and when it was discovered this had happened it was too late to correct it as the factory had already moved on to making something else?

Yes it was this one.

[ChrisG]

Well DJM have from day one made plenty of comments about full spares availability from time of release, made it a bit of a sales pitch in fact. http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=253

If those spares aren't available you can hardly complain about customers complaining about a service or facility promised, but not delivered.

Thank you! Spares were specifically promised for the O2 and have not materialised. We have been let down...

 

Chris

[Brinkly]

I must admit there is a lot to be said for building your own models if spare parts are going to be like hen's teeth. 

 

One of my Beattie Well tanks has packed up (with less than 20 hours running on the clock), resulting in a £100 paper weight. It would seem that there aren't any spares about for that either. 

 

I understand that carrying a full spare range is expensive, but basic things such as screws, motors and wheel sets should be kept. Fortunately, I've managed to tracking down an old Perseverance kit and will use the chassis from that as a replacement. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Guest]

So-ooh, since my post - no. 1625 - 5 June, I have now received from DJM models two springs and screws for the bogie trucks, from cannibalised returned O2's.

 

See how long this will last.

[phil-b259]

Thank you! Spares were specifically promised for the O2 and have not materialised. We have been let down...

 

Chris

 

So were DJM and Kernow.

 

Sorry, but when you outsource production to factories on the other side of the world employing 'batch production' techniques with he requirement to book slots well in advance there is relatively little that DJM and Kernow can do when they are let down. While I imagine they got some financial compensation out of China for not having spares produced as instructed, the basic fact is that to commission a factory in China to simply produce a small batch of spares as a separate entity (rather than tagged on to the end of a full model production run) is not financially viable.

 

Kernow and DJM have business to run - they can't afford to chuck money away paying over he odds to produce spares - even if they did originally promise them.

 

Also as much as it might grate with modellers, we now live in a 'disposable society' and model railways are not immune from this trend where the cost of manufacture in Asia has dropped so much, that its often cheaper to throw away and replace with new than repair. Not the best thing for the planet as recycling products is a lot less environmentally friendly (due to the energy that has to be spent melting them down, separating out the various different materials, stripping out toxic metals etc) than reusing things or repairing them.

Edited July 19, 2017 by phil-b259

[Godfrey Glyn]

Despite being a fully satisfied customer of Kernow, based on the service they have provided me, I am afraid I have to agree with ChrisG. The spares were promised by DJM, it is not cheaper for the buyer to throw away a £100+ model for the sake of a few springs and screws. It seems to me that DJM, having promised spares, were honour bound to source and supply them. If a 'manufacturer' cannot offer any sort of spares service, their product becomes much less attractive as far as I am concerned and essentially its down to 'buyer beware' when purchasing. I have always received helpful service from Hornby and Bachmann when I have had a problem, even if in the case of Hornby I have had to go to a third party spares provider. I was unaware of the no spares policy on the DJM 14xx.  I am pleased to see that the Bulleids are being made by another company and hope that Chris at Kernow has managed to arrange for spares to be available for them. I, personally, would always be willing to pay for spares when something fails after several years and of course some of us have made good use of purchased RTR spares on new projects.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

[DJM Dave]

Hi,

 

To clarify this a bit further, I have started breaking up returned O2 models for spares as the spares are still problematic from China.

 

Please note I am breaking up otherwise fully repairable (with the correct spares) locomotives which is costing me greatly, and in the main I am not even charging those that need them, not even postage.

 

However, despite sending bits and bobs out over the last few weeks to customers who wanted them, I have yet to even receive a cursory 'thank you' from some of them which is very disconcerting.

 

I appreciate that spares aren't totally available yet, and I am trying my best but a thank you would have been nice.

 

As an aside, the total number of spares supplied for the J94 is at present 5 items. I've got enough spares to make around 60 loco's from scratch too, all paid for and wasting money unfortunately.

 

Cheers

Dave

[phil-b259]

Despite being a fully satisfied customer of Kernow, based on the service they have provided me, I am afraid I have to agree with ChrisG. The spares were promised by DJM, it is not cheaper for the buyer to throw away a £100+ model for the sake of a few springs and screws. It seems to me that DJM, having promised spares, were honour bound to source and supply them. If a 'manufacturer' cannot offer any sort of spares service, their product becomes much less attractive as far as I am concerned and essentially its down to 'buyer beware' when purchasing. I have always received helpful service from Hornby and Bachmann when I have had a problem, even if in the case of Hornby I have had to go to a third party spares provider. I was unaware of the no spares policy on the DJM 14xx.  I am pleased to see that the Bulleids are being made by another company and hope that Chris at Kernow has managed to arrange for spares to be available for them. I, personally, would always be willing to pay for spares when something fails after several years and of course some of us have made good use of purchased RTR spares on new projects.

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

 

Right firstly as regards the 14XX 'no spares' policy, this was decided by Hattons NOT DJM. Hattons commissioned the models and said at the outset they were not in the business of supply spare parts - if customers had a defective loco it should be retuned to them for repair. As a business they have every right to take this decision - the provision of spare parts is not some sort of god given right.

 

With the O2, Kernow (who commissioned the models) specifically said they would be arranging for spare parts to be made and they would be available to purchase - but this was under the assumption that the Chinese factory would do what it was contracted to do by DJM. As has been explained, the factory let them down and it is prohibitively expensive to go back and arrange a tiny production run just for spares. The best bet for a large additional run of spares is if Kernow were doing a repeat run of O2 locos - but as it seems like they still have plenty left to sell that option won't be happening anytime soon.

 

So two totally different situations - and while the end result may be the same (no spares) they should not be linked

 

While a larger component was concerned, the situations no different to Hornby who only started making replacement chassis bocks for their 31s on the back of those being made for a new catalogue release a few years ago. True Hornby did give out gift vouchers but they are a bigger company and have grater financial resources behind them to make such gestures.Equally while they may sound helpful in suggesting alternative retailers, those retailers still need Hornby to actually be in a position to sell them the spaes in the first place - and if there are none to be had until a further model is produced then you still won't get the spares you want.

 

Face it, the days of simply being able to put in a call to the factory for them to produce a few left handed widgets or whatever have gone. Getting on your high horse at Kernow or DJM will not help, nor will it change the fundamentals of how model railway commissioning / manufacturing is carried out today. You would be facing exactly the same issues if the container carrying the spare parts fell overboard in the South China Sea - the factory that made them will have moved on to making something else and is not going to alter its production schedule to replace the loss.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi,

 

To clarify this a bit further, I have started breaking up returned O2 models for spares as the spares are still problematic from China.

 

Please note I am breaking up otherwise fully repairable (with the correct spares) locomotives which is costing me greatly, and in the main I am not even charging those that need them, not even postage.

 

However, despite sending bits and bobs out over the last few weeks to customers who wanted them, I have yet to even receive a cursory 'thank you' from some of them which is very disconcerting.

 

I appreciate that spares aren't totally available yet, and I am trying my best but a thank you would have been nice.

 

As an aside, the total number of spares supplied for the J94 is at present 5 items. I've got enough spares to make around 60 loco's from scratch too, all paid for and wasting money unfortunately.

 

CHERS

Dave

It is not a waste of money, Dave. Offering good service does pay in the long run.

 

As to manufacturers in general not keeping spares, yes, it is true that there is a trend towards this. But under EU consumer legislation, it is illegal. There should be spares available for all likely parts needing replacement for a period of 10 years from date of manufacture/sale.

 

Of course, there is a cost to this and it will result in increased prices for the original product. Personally, that is a price that I think is worth paying rather than have the sort of experiences highlighted above. I certainly would not buy a Hatton's 14/48xx knowing that there is no possibility of getting any spares.

[autocoach]

It is not a waste of money, Dave. Offering good service does pay in the long run.

 

As to manufacturers in general not keeping spares, yes, it is true that there is a trend towards this. But under EU consumer legislation, it is illegal. There should be spares available for all likely parts needing replacement for a period of 10 years from date of manufacture/sale.

 

Of course, there is a cost to this and it will result in increased prices for the original product. Personally, that is a price that I think is worth paying rather than have the sort of experiences highlighted above. I certainly would not buy a Hatton's 14/48xx knowing that there is no possibility of getting any spares.

I would argue that the EU reg if applicable applies to manufacturers not commissioners and importers. And would be laughed at in China where it would be unenforceable.

[ChrisG]

Hi,

 

To clarify this a bit further, I have started breaking up returned O2 models for spares as the spares are still problematic from China.

 

Please note I am breaking up otherwise fully repairable (with the correct spares) locomotives which is costing me greatly, and in the main I am not even charging those that need them, not even postage.

 

However, despite sending bits and bobs out over the last few weeks to customers who wanted them, I have yet to even receive a cursory 'thank you' from some of them which is very disconcerting.

 

I appreciate that spares aren't totally available yet, and I am trying my best but a thank you would have been nice.

 

As an aside, the total number of spares supplied for the J94 is at present 5 items. I've got enough spares to make around 60 loco's from scratch too, all paid for and wasting money unfortunately.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

That is indeed positive news. Did you see my e-mail to you a few weeks ago (sent on 28th May to your "info" address) enquiring about the availability of the retaining screw and spring for the rear bogie of the O2?

 

Chris

Edited July 19, 2017 by ChrisG

[Roy Langridge]

It is not a waste of money, Dave. Offering good service does pay in the long run.

 

As to manufacturers in general not keeping spares, yes, it is true that there is a trend towards this. But under EU consumer legislation, it is illegal. There should be spares available for all likely parts needing replacement for a period of 10 years from date of manufacture/sale.

 

Of course, there is a cost to this and it will result in increased prices for the original product. Personally, that is a price that I think is worth paying rather than have the sort of experiences highlighted above. I certainly would not buy a Hatton's 14/48xx knowing that there is no possibility of getting any spares.

I cannot find any EU regulation or directive that states this ten years period you quote. Indeed, there is lots of references to there being no EU or UK law mandating spares availability.

 

All that applies in consumer law is that the goods must work and be repaired or replaced if they fail within their warranty period*. If they cannot be replaced then they should be refunded. This will not apply to bits lost / damaged by the user.

 

Can you please give me the reference to the legislation you refer to?

 

Thanks,

 

Roy

 

* even here the maximum period you can argue for goods is generally six years in law.

[Steamport Southport]

All covered here.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

 

 

Ignore the European versions as the ones above are the relevant ones that are upholdable in court. I'm supposed to know all this as part of my job, but most of it is "Legalese".

 

But I believe the law states somewhere that it's six years.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[46444]

As an aside to the discussion on parts I thought I'd highlight the positives of this model.  Here's my two finished as Plymouth Friary locos in wartime black.

 

182 is a renumbered standard Kernow/DJM product:

 

 

 

197 started life as the BR lined 30225 version. Following Graham Muzprat's blog I was able to ascertain the cab doors weren't fitted on the non-push pull fitted examples and carefully removed.

 

 

 

Decals by HMRS Methfix.

 

My two have been run in nicely and run superbly. 

 

Credit to Kernow and DJM for bringing them to the market. Gate Stock awaited!

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

Edited July 19, 2017 by 46444