davetheroad Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Slightly off the main topic, but davetheroad's weathering of the Kato unitrack there looks excellent! Is there a thread with more detail on the layout? Yes, look for Castlerock. The last post was a long time ago but I am still very very slowly progressing with blocking in the hills. must take some more photos and post them. Back on topic you could use the foam for the uprights as well but it might be cheaper to use ply. The foam can be glued and screwed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted August 8, 2013 Author Share Posted August 8, 2013 My 2c is that I've used styrofoam in two ways - firstly just supported on spars (with cosmetic edge protection) and secondly as composite structures where the foam (50mm) is encased on four sides with relatively thin ply and the whole lot supported at the ends. I also have a couple of 100mm thich styrofoam baords. I have found in all cases that the foam is not really self-supporting. In the case of the boards resting on twin spars I have channelled out underneath and reinforced with twin alu channel at right-angles to the support spares. In the case of the composite boards I have both reinforced with relatively slim timber spars underneath and provided intermediate supports to avoid sag. There is still absolutely no question that I would recommend the use of styrofoam baseboards.The benefits are in terms of reduced carpentry, easy pinning of items, shaping of the board as required (incl for gradients), ease of boring through (I simply use a meat skewer) and the ease of running cables in channels as required. It is disappointing that the product isn't more self-supporting though because it has taken a lot more time, effort and money than anticipated to make things satisfactory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hi Phil, Re #253 You could simply use matching strips of 3mm Ply on the top of the Foam and on the underside ... it forms a girder and will prevent the Foam flopping .... similar to the Ply used to form a cable duct by davetheroad ... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75123-do-oldies-really-need-those-trusses/ Given you have the side pieces, it would only require a couple of long, 1" strips of Ply ............. The top ones can be "disappeared" under hills, platforms etc and simply matched underneath. They don't have to be continuous across the whole baseboard and can be staggered to good effect too. ......... Just an idea, but lighter and easier to apply than the verticals you have there. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted August 26, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2013 I plan to build a 100mm by 9mm plywood frame and then cut foam to fit in an effort to keep the baseboards square. I shall probably add a further ply strengthener across the centre of the frame before adding the 50mm foam core as an earlier attempt to fit 6mm ply to the pre-cut foam wasn't too successful because the ply was too flexible and I didn't manage to cut the foam precisely enough. I'm proposing to use 18mm square softwood in the corners to fix the ends of the plywood to. I'm hoping to use servos to work the few signals and hand-built points that I propose for the layout. Is the easiest way to fit (servo operated) points to fix a small ply base to the underside of the toe of the point and fix the servo to that and then drop the assembly into a pre-cut hole in the baseboard? I presume that a similar method is used for operated semaphore signals. I don't think I could find anywhere suitable above the baseboard to mount the servos because I want to make the layout viewable from either side so was proposing to slope the ground down slightly from the track to the baseboard edge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Hi Phil, I shall probably add a further ply strengthener across the centre of the frame before adding the 50mm foam core as an earlier attempt to fit 6mm ply to the pre-cut foam wasn't too successful because the ply was too flexible Sorry, I, may not have been very clear about the strips of 3mm Ply. You can add immense stiffness to your Foam board by gluing a 1" or 2" wide strip flat on the top of the Foam part of the board for most of the width - then match it with another 1" or 2" wide strip matching it underneath the Board. These strips are not vertical, but very easily, laid on the Foam, flat and glued to it all the way. Being laid flat on the board and only 3mm, it is easy to cover the one on the top with a platform or bit of hill etc. It effectively makes a Ply / Foam / Ply sandwich girder. If you have the space adding more lengths can make it even stiffer. Given the small amount of Ply, this is a very light-weight construction. NB. The strips can be offset/staggered around obstructions too. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Brighton Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Hi Phil, Sorry, I, may not have been very clear about the strips of 3mm Ply. You can add immense stiffness to your Foam board by gluing a 1" or 2" wide strip flat on the top of the Foam part of the board for most of the width - then match it with another 1" or 2" wide strip matching it underneath the Board. These strips are not vertical, but very easily, laid on the Foam, flat and glued to it all the way. Being laid flat on the board and only 3mm, it is easy to cover the one on the top with a platform or bit of hill etc. It effectively makes a Ply / Foam / Ply sandwich girder. If you have the space adding more lengths can make it even stiffer. Given the small amount of Ply, this is a very light-weight construction. NB. The strips can be offset/staggered around obstructions too. J Thanks for the advice - looking at my proposed track plan there seems to be enough places I could do this and keep them out of the way of the track. I might well need to as I have changed my baseboard plans to use 50mm dow floor mate (except for one point where I will double up to enable a road under the track). I have also decided I will use the floor mate for the legs as well. 3 legs per 2500mm sheet with the end ones supporting the next piece. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Hi Phil, The 50mm is fine for the job and it sounds as though you might get in several matching pairs of strips. The stuff I used on my Sandwich with Sides is only 40mm but the 50mm will give you more room to place the Servos. The picture is of another N Gauge layout I am just plotting for my 7 yr old and it is 4' x 2' 6" DSC_0163 by JulianR 2013, on Flickr I put both ends [right at the end too] on supports and measured how much it flexed - when I stood in the middle ... .... I am over 10 St and it flexed 1mm ...... If you run with the Styro legs, it might be an idea to put a thin Ply skin there too, to keep the cosmetics in good trim ...... If you look on here there are some other comments, which might give you some thoughts too .. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75123-do-oldies-really-need-those-trusses/ ........... [ignoring the ribald remarks from some of the contributors - although you may add some yourself if you so feel suited .... ] J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas G Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 In response to another thread started today that has been closed and linked to this one, at the moment none of the big stores such as B&Q or Wickes seem to have the Knauf pink spaceboard, but I have purchased from this site, Taskers on Merseyside: http://www.taskersonline.com/products/Knauf-Space-Board-%2850096880%29.html It is also worth looking on Gumtree, as I have seen job lots for sale in recent months. Douglas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 When the diy stores are out of the pink stuff, your sort of stuck with auction sites or Hindleys which sell the blue stuff, but is more expensive but better choice of sizes. http://www.hindleys.com/index.php/materials/plastics-foam/sheet/styrofoam-high-density-polystyrene-foam.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 There is a big difference between the blue Dow Floormate and the pink Knauf spaceboard. The density of the Dow is far greater than Knauf. The main reason is Floormate does what it says on the tin. Its for insulating flooring and suitable for heavy weights. The Knauf spaceboard is loft insulation and not suitable for walking on. I've used both in module construction. Floormate in 2" thickness needs far less support than the 52mm thick spaceboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne 37901 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Hi, I've spent most of this week hunting around for some more Knauf Spaceboard ECO for my next project but drew a complete blank. Some companies stock it but wont sell to the public. A friend of mine has used Celotex to build a baseboard with no problems so I got a sheet to try. The plan is to frame it underneath with battens and incase the outside in Ply/Hardboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 According to the Wickes website the Swansea extra store has 86 pieces of space board. Is that close to you? Wickes only stock it in their extra stores now. Hth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted September 20, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 20, 2013 A friend of mine has used Celotex to build a baseboard with no problems so I got a sheet to try. The plan is to frame it underneath with battens and incase the outside in Ply/Hardboard. My feeling about using Celotex is that you will have to cross brace it well underneath to stop 'bowing'. I've found that it does have a natural tendency to become saucer shaped over time. This is for 'spaceboard' but would work for Celotex' I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hi, To keep Foam really secure, see Post #265, including a strength test [basic but effective], at the top of the page. Also further information on some ways it can be used. here ..... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75123-do-oldies-really-need-those-trusses/ Celotex should be ok if you remove the silver covering from both sides. It seems to curl if you leave one side on. Foam can be bought in various sizes, and cut how you like from here .... http://www.cncpolystyrene.co.uk/services/larger-than-life-props J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_long Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Doesn't celotex crumble if you remove the silver linings? In my opinion the best use of Celotex would be to use it link the Black country blues team used it. See link http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57151-bc-blues-baseboards-and-base-scenics/?p=733622 Stand it on its end and use for scenery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne 37901 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hi Re6/6, Yes, my plan is to brace it with battens underneath anyway. Also the sides will incased in an outer shell of Ply/hardboard so it will be secured. Providing this is done there shouldn't be any problems, at least a modeller I know who uses it hasn't had any problems. Hi Dave, I did wonder this, and as I work in a builders Merchant anyway I had a go at removing the foil on a scrap sheet. It did crumble a little but I've also tried the same on the sheet I've got and provided you remove the foil carefully it leaves a nice surface. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It seems logical to resurrect this thread since I have spent all day reading it! I have sourced some of the pink Knauf board from Wickes (note - in my local store it was to be found with the pipe lagging, nowhere near the Celotex etc!), with which to conduct some experiments. My plan was to lay track onto thin ply, the ply being laid onto the foam. I found the County Gate team's website very helpful in visualising how it might work: http://www.009.cd2.com/members/how_to/baseboards.htm The issue I can see is that the majority of layout I'm building is on embankment. As such, if I end up using a sheet as the base, and another sheet to create the height, access to point motors is going to be hellish, because it will be through 100mm+ of foam. Clearly also the number of motor holes necessary, quite close together, at either end of the layout, is bound to compromise the strength of the foam. I am left wondering whether I ought to return to open-top board construction, and simply use the foam is an infill material, or whether that sheer bulk of the layered foam will be strong enough to take the about of hollowing out from beneath necessary to make access acceptable. Self evidently, these problems only arise when he track bed is exclusively above the level of most of the scenery, and is therefore not very common. Any thoughts, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Hi Tom, Have a look at this..... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75123-light-sandwich-with-sides-top-up/ You can leave quite large gaps under the board and foam, to fit whatever you like. The strength is so high that you can put pretty much what you like under the boards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Hi Tom, I should have added that slopes [up and down] can be added easily, by cutting the top Ply board either side of the Track-bed, before glueing toe top on. The Track-bed gets no glue and can be supported on foam wedges or Ply trusses or a combination. [NB. if real lightness is the object, then = depth Balsa can replace the Track-bed, provided there are sufficient trusses/foam.] Going downhill into the PIR, is just as simple, by removing the PIR under the Track-bed and bracing, before glueing the top down ....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 A friend in Finland (one of the Loylimaaki Group)made a club layout using some sort of Styrofoam baseboard. He told me they they had problems at baseboard ends lining up with the next board, and it eventually sagged quite badly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff mcghie Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 If anyone is still looking for the pink stuff, my local B&Q had a small amount of it in stock at £6.14 clearance. Not there any more thou ;-) Jeff. Edit to add:- was in Wickes today for some ply and notice they are still stocking the pink boards, its beside the pipe lagging rather than the loft insulation. Think it was about £8 or 9 thou. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturol Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Just to add my three pence worth, I have previously built two layouts using celotex / kingspan cavity wall insulation, the largest being a circular layout 1200mm dia, cut from a single 50 mm sheet, I then evostik,d a sheet of 3mm ply over the top surface. As the edges of the baseboard are exposed and very soft I then evostik d a 53 mm strip of hardboard to the circumference and held it in place until cured with a ratchet strap. The layout went to around twenty exhibitions locally and remains rigid to this day, although it's now in new hands. I have also made up small dioramas using 5mm foam board from hobby craft, a fantastic medium to use but it blunts knife blades very quickly, glue together with supa glue mitre adhesive and spray activator for instant adhesion. This also makes great cheap stock boxs when glue to a 3mm ply base for extra strength. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hi Naturol That is one lovely detailed and painted Diorama, with a rather nifty, clever track plan .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturol Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hi Naturol That is one lovely detailed and painted Diorama, with a rather nifty, clever track plan .... Thank you J. Kind words, there are additional pictures on the forum should you be interested, search under " castle works" the layout uses set track as it's basis, and the layout was built on Green credentials of reusing whatever was available, Ngauge stuff whatever,Total cost around £200 max, the foam board base was found on a skip as was the hardboard, the layout then rests on a lazy Susan and that is fixed to a sheet of 3/4" shuttering ply that is warped, but again came out of a skip. The main cost was the scratch built stock cut down second hand TTA tanks to make the ASW coil wagons, Thanks for the comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom J Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Right, I have built a very small segment of board to test my plans on. I should add this has been built whilst looking after two off-colour children, the eldest of whom is two, hence using what came to hand, over-length screws and all! I used an unopened but maybe five-year-old old cartridge of yellow solvent free gripfill. Never used it before and I am not persuaded by it so far, for the woodwork at least, although it does seem to be going off (16 hours curing so far). The foam seems to need a 'key' to stand a chance at bonding. What's missing off here is the second layer of 50mm foam, which will set the trackbed height. Much of the layout is embankment and so the lower 50mm sheet provides the structure and the upper provides the contours. I will need to bore into the lower sheet to make access space for point motors etc, but in these cases the top sheet will add strength, the holes being able to be smaller and bridged with ply for the track. I'm using scraps of Chinese ply here and was set on using 9mm birch ply sides to make the boards sturdy externally. I was then planning on using 3-4mm birch ply for trackbed. I am reading of issues with distortion but am presuming this is happening where a large amount of ply has been added to one side, rather than just under the track? N gauge track-width strips surely can't be that strong?! I'm going to add the top layer, some ply and some track etc, just as a feasibility exercise. I don't want to waste money, time and foam sheet building a layout's worth of boards and then struggling to lay the track! Grateful for any thoughts arising... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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